Newbie needs help making a plan

[Dom_P]

Hi all,

I joined a few days ago after lurking for quite a while, and while I'm learning a lot from all of you (thanks!), it's certainly a bit overwhelming for a newbie.

I moved into a new home that has a small room in the basement that should easily fit over 500 bottles. The room is unfinished and exposed to the house's foundation and stays quite cool ranging from the low 50's F to the mid 60's F throughout the year, so I think it should work for passive longer term storage.

I'm in my mid 50's and would like to try to develop a plan for the next several years and need some help.

I assume I'll be consuming ~100 bottles/year and plan to focus mostly on Bordeaux and wines from Piedmont and Tuscany. I'm thinking on a yearly basis the majority should be modest "daily drinkers", maybe a case of "mid level" bottles, and one or two exceptional/special occasion bottles. Given the space, I suppose I'm looking at trying to build a 10 to 15 year plan, as I assume most of the "daily drinkers" in the first few years could be purchased as needed.

I know I have some backfilling to do, and my first question is what vintages should I focus on now for the "mid" bottles that I wish to consume over the next few years? Also any advice on producers would be greatly appreciated. For budget, I'm thinking the price point for "mid" should not exceed $200.

Then secondly what should I focus on as I build out for later years, do I try to look out 10 years out and build out the daily/mid/special today for then? And then "wean off" the backfilling in some structured way over time?

If I'm way off in my thinking, or just overthinking this completely, please let me know that as well

Thanks!

[Musigny 151]

1. Taste as much as you can before spending several thousand dollars on wines you may grow to hate. The best way is to find people you can taste with. It will bring down the cost but also you are likely to end up widening your circle agreeably., and of course you will get a better handle on which wines you do like and which you don’t. It is hard during Covid, but tasting many, many wines is ultimately the best way to learn. You can try this or other boards to find out if there are others in your area who are interested or already belong to a group. Talk to your local wine shop as well.

2. As you can see from various recent threads, there are strong opinions even when you narrow your wish list to something as basic as Bordeaux. There is a myriad of styles, and our likes may be totally different to yours.

3. The only definitive recommendation I will make is to look for Right Bank wines from 1998. Still slightly underpriced, but for me it produced some of the finest wines from this part of Bordeaux.

[Dom_P]

Thanks for the great advice Musigny

I'll certainly continue to focus on tasting as much as I can, and will see what I can do to find some other folks in my area who share interest.

Mostly speaking I'm not looking for advice on what particular wines to purchase at this point as I agree that I need to focus on my tastes vs others'. Rather, I'm trying to figure out a purchasing/aging strategy for the next several years that leads to less higher priced backfilling of vintages over time, etc.

As I noted, I may just be overthinking this but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making any "rookie mistakes".

As for recommendations, my thought was to adopt a "try then buy" approach to try to limit buying wines that I will grow to hate. So any advice is appreciated. Feel free to send me a private message if anyone feels it inappropriate to post in this thread.

[Musigny 151]

A lot of questions.
What is your budget?
How much are you going to spend on each level? How many bottles of each?
What percentage of wines are you prepared to cellar long term?
Are you able to and do you have the stomach for auctions?
How many times a year will you drink trophy wines, and what cost do you feel comfortable with?
Do you have the budget to visit wine regions? There are plenty of wine tours around.
I don’t recommend a lot of publications but have you found any similarities with anybody. (Check K &L web site for a large number of critic reviews)
How many in your household drink wine? Are half bottles and magnums worth thinking about?
Get Wine Searcher Pro.
Where do you live, and what is the state policy for interstate shipping?
Does your state allow BYO in restaurants?

[Dom_P]

Thanks, here's some feedback on the questions:

What is your budget?
How much are you going to spend on each level?
How many bottles of each?

I'm thinking in the range of $20 to $50 for majority, $100 to $200 for mid, and for "trophy" I'd try to stay under $500 (but I'm sure I'll stray ). As I noted in the orig post, maybe a case of "mid" and one or two trophy per year. So, if I average things out that feels like about $5k/year.

What percentage of wines are you prepared to cellar long term?

That's something I'm looking for advice on actually. How do I best manage that, should I buy some lower cost bottles that turn into "daily drinkers" down the line" or should I focus on longer term storage for "mid" and "trophy" only given I have about 500 to 700 bottles of storage?

Are you able to and do you have the stomach for auctions?

Yes, though I haven't done this in the past.

How many times a year will you drink trophy wines, and what cost do you feel comfortable with?

Maybe once every year or two, see above for cost.

Do you have the budget to visit wine regions? There are plenty of wine tours around.

Yes, but typically don't always have the time

I don’t recommend a lot of publications but have you found any similarities with anybody. (Check K &L web site for a large number of critic reviews)

I joined cellartracker and try to read up on tasting notes there and also try to read up on items that might interest me on other websites. I'll probably try to use the WishList on cellartraker to help with planning.

How many in your household drink wine? Are half bottles and magnums worth thinking about?

This is a great point. It's mostly me, unless guests are over since my wife typically gets by with Prosecco and Moscato d'Asti. So yes, I think half bottles could make sense. Though I often find myself opening a bottle to consume for two days. I don't think magnums would make sense in my case.

Get Wine Searcher Pro.

Will do, I use the free version now as a lot of local stores seem to be available in the free version

Where do you live, and what is the state policy for interstate shipping?
Does your state allow BYO in restaurants?

I'm in New Jersey, interstate shipping isn't typically a prob, and yes BYO is allowed.




Thanks again for the help!

[JoelD]

All of these are great questions that Musigny asked. And no I don't think you're overthinking it. I would also try to ballpark price ranges you hope for for each level of wine you are referring to to get better ideas and recommendations.

After seeing your responses, definitely don't ignore the 50-100$ price range in bordeaux. It's often where i've found some of my absolute best value wines. So maybe add a tier. 20-40 for dailys. 40-100 for lower mid. 100-200 for upper mid or something like that.

Definitely get wine-searcher pro and make use of the alert function.

Also with backfilling, be very careful. Some auctions and retailers are much better than others. Luckily Bordeaux holds up better on the gray market than Burgundy and others.

I tried to reverse engineer this myself 5 years ago. I don't regret much other than way too much California Cabernet. Which I plan to sell, but I was very dilligent with pricing. Almost treated it like a business early and I should actually make or at least not lose any money on the wines I don't want.

[stefan]

375s are good for young wines when you are drinking by yourself. However, rather than look for 375s for backfilling, I suggest that you use a Repour to save half of the bottle for drinking within the coming week.

[Musigny 151]

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[Musigny 151]

Good that you now have a better idea on budget and specifics.

Now it is just a question of figuring out what you like. You should be able to find a lot of people in NJ, so you can do the fun part of this exercise, taste.

[Dom_P]

375s are good for young wines when you are drinking by yourself. However, rather than look for 375s for backfilling, I suggest that you use a Repour to save half of the bottle for drinking within the coming week.

Thanks for the advice! I ordered 40 Repours when on sale last week, happy to hear that it sounds like they work

[Dom_P]

All of these are great questions that Musigny asked. And no I don't think you're overthinking it. I would also try to ballpark price ranges you hope for for each level of wine you are referring to to get better ideas and recommendations.

After seeing your responses, definitely don't ignore the 50-100$ price range in bordeaux. It's often where i've found some of my absolute best value wines. So maybe add a tier. 20-40 for dailys. 40-100 for lower mid. 100-200 for upper mid or something like that.

Definitely get wine-searcher pro and make use of the alert function.

Also with backfilling, be very careful. Some auctions and retailers are much better than others. Luckily Bordeaux holds up better on the gray market than Burgundy and others.

I tried to reverse engineer this myself 5 years ago. I don't regret much other than way too much California Cabernet. Which I plan to sell, but I was very dilligent with pricing. Almost treated it like a business early and I should actually make or at least not lose any money on the wines I don't want.

Thanks JoelD,

It sounds that that is very much in my ballpark. "20-40 for dailys. 40-100 for lower mid. 100-200 for upper mid" sounds like a good plan. I will likely stay away from the Cali Cabs as they are not my preference (though I have a few $100ish bottles here that I've received as gifts over the years). Maybe my taste just tends towards the Old World even though my Italian immigrant parents always had a jug of Carlo Rossi Burgundy not to far from the table If you don't mind me asking how did you go about your 'reverse engineering"/planning for the future over the last 5 years?

[JoelD]

All of these are great questions that Musigny asked. And no I don't think you're overthinking it. I would also try to ballpark price ranges you hope for for each level of wine you are referring to to get better ideas and recommendations.

After seeing your responses, definitely don't ignore the 50-100$ price range in bordeaux. It's often where i've found some of my absolute best value wines. So maybe add a tier. 20-40 for dailys. 40-100 for lower mid. 100-200 for upper mid or something like that.

Definitely get wine-searcher pro and make use of the alert function.

Also with backfilling, be very careful. Some auctions and retailers are much better than others. Luckily Bordeaux holds up better on the gray market than Burgundy and others.

I tried to reverse engineer this myself 5 years ago. I don't regret much other than way too much California Cabernet. Which I plan to sell, but I was very dilligent with pricing. Almost treated it like a business early and I should actually make or at least not lose any money on the wines I don't want.

Thanks JoelD,

It sounds that that is very much in my ballpark. "20-40 for dailys. 40-100 for lower mid. 100-200 for upper mid" sounds like a good plan. I will likely stay away from the Cali Cabs as they are not my preference (though I have a few $100ish bottles here that I've received as gifts over the years). Maybe my taste just tends towards the Old World even though my Italian immigrant parents always had a jug of Carlo Rossi Burgundy not to far from the table If you don't mind me asking how did you go about your 'reverse engineering"/planning for the future over the last 5 years?

Through lots of backfilling. And trying to taste the "best" wines of each type, especially back vintages. Most of this was from scores/reviews early. My palate quickly changed, and I would say improved. Luckily I was good at sourcing from retailers that stood by their products. Once I knew more I was able to dive into auctions. My tastes moved more and more old world and lean classical but I like some more modern producers as well that some on this board don't enjoy. The biggest change was liking lower and lower alcohol. Probably helped that I cut out hard liquor. My tastes seem to have started to settle.

Just sad I didn't buy more 80's Bordeaux. Working on that now. However when you just buy and buy without selling much, you end up with 2500 bottles in 5 years. Although in fairness, about 25% are wines that I bought purely to turn a profit on down the road.

I definitely recommend subscribing to Garagiste for daily drinkers. But you have to be careful there too. So easy to buy too many.

[Dom_P]

Through lots of backfilling. And trying to taste the "best" wines of each type, especially back vintages. Most of this was from scores/reviews early. My palate quickly changed, and I would say improved. Luckily I was good at sourcing from retailers that stood by their products. Once I knew more I was able to dive into auctions. My tastes moved more and more old world and lean classical but I like some more modern producers as well that some on this board don't enjoy. The biggest change was liking lower and lower alcohol. Probably helped that I cut out hard liquor. My tastes seem to have started to settle.

Just sad I didn't buy more 80's Bordeaux. Working on that now. However when you just buy and buy without selling much, you end up with 2500 bottles in 5 years. Although in fairness, about 25% are wines that I bought purely to turn a profit on down the road.

I definitely recommend subscribing to Garagiste for daily drinkers. But you have to be careful there too. So easy to buy too many.

Thanks JoelD that is super useful! Will look into Garagiste as well

[DavidG]

One important and sometimes confounding factor is where your sweet spot for aging is. When wines are at peak varies by variety, region, winemaking style, and personal preference. The advice above about joining a group and tasting widely can help you figure out (more quickly and at less cost than backfilling, though you’ll need to do some of that as well) where your palate preferences are with respect to aging. Plus the social aspect and chance to make new friends, at least once the plague has receded.

We have BWEs here who love to drink young Bordeaux at under 10 years of age, and others who think the sweet spot is around 10-20 years, 20-30 years, and >30 years.

This is important because it will determine how much space you’ll need in your cellar and how much backfilling you’ll need to do. If you drink 100 bottles a year and like them at a median age of 15 years (not unusual for a Bordeaux lover), you’ll need around 1500 bottles in the pipeline if you plan to purchase them all en primeur or on release and age them yourself. Reduce that number by the amount of backfilling you can do.

The confounding part is that our palate preferences can change, possibly leaving you with a cellar full of wines that are too old or too young or the “wrong” style. That’s when you have the opportunity to be the source for someone else’s backfilling. It happened to me around 5-7 years in, and again about 20 years in.

It’s a fascinating journey, welcome!

[Dom_P]

One important and sometimes confounding factor is where your sweet spot for aging is. When wines are at peak varies by variety, region, winemaking style, and personal preference. The advice above about joining a group and tasting widely can help you figure out (more quickly and at less cost than backfilling, though you’ll need to do some of that as well) where your palate preferences are with respect to aging. Plus the social aspect and chance to make new friends, at least once the plague has receded.

We have BWEs here who love to drink young Bordeaux at under 10 years of age, and others who think the sweet spot is around 10-20 years, 20-30 years, and >30 years.

This is important because it will determine how much space you’ll need in your cellar and how much backfilling you’ll need to do. If you drink 100 bottles a year and like them at a median age of 15 years (not unusual for a Bordeaux lover), you’ll need around 1500 bottles in the pipeline if you plan to purchase them all en primeur or on release and age them yourself. Reduce that number by the amount of backfilling you can do.

The confounding part is that our palate preferences can change, possibly leaving you with a cellar full of wines that are too old or too young or the “wrong” style. That’s when you have the opportunity to be the source for someone else’s backfilling. It happened to me around 5-7 years in, and again about 20 years in.

It’s a fascinating journey, welcome!

Thanks David, that's sage advice for sure. I do have the room to expand to 1500 bottles down the line if I need it, but as it seems to be a journey as you say, I'm not trying to establish that immediately. I've been doing a lot of reading and been trying to establish a "tasting list". If I can find 375mls I'll try to use those to minimize cost. My searching has led me to a "wish list" (below), but as recommended by all, the goal would be to sample before committing to any larger purchases of any on this list. I tried to focus on vintages that were recommended by others, but again it's a little overwhelming right now, so maybe that's the wrong approach. Here's what I have so far as I'm thinking I'll try to backfill to 2005 or so.

2019 Vieux Chateau Certan
2019 Chateau Haut-Bailly
2019 Chateau Montrose
2018 Domaine de Chevalier
2018 Chateau Lanessan
2016 Chateau Duhart-Milon
2015 Chateau Montrose
2015 Chateau Pontet-Canet
2015 Vieux Chateau Certan
2014 Chateau Montrose
2014 Chateau Duhart-Milon
2014 Chateau Pontet-Canet
2014 Chateau Lalande-Borie
2014 Chateau Haut-Bailly
2014 Chateau Canon
2014 Chateau L'Eglise-Clinet
2014 Chateau La Conseillante
2012 Chateau Palmer (not so sure about this one but it's $199 locally and seems like a good price)
2010 Domaine de Chevalier
2010 Chateau Gloria
2010 Chateau Cantemerle
2010 Chateau Duhart-Milon
2009 Chateau L'Eglise-Clinet
2009 Chateau Figeac
2009 Vieux Chateau Certan
2009 Chateau Grand-Puy-Lacoste
2009 Chateau Duhart-Milon
2009 Chateau Lynch-Bages
2009 Chateau Cantemerle
2009 Chateau Gloria
2005 Chateau Grand-Puy-Lacoste
2005 Chateau d'Issan
2005 Chateau Montrose
2005 Chateau Duhart-Milon
2005 Chateau Lascombes
2005 Chateau Sociando-Mallet

[jckba]

2012 Chateau Palmer (not so sure about this one but it's $199 locally and seems like a good price)

Glen Rock Bottle King?

[Dom_P]

2012 Chateau Palmer (not so sure about this one but it's $199 locally and seems like a good price)

Glen Rock Bottle King?

It was the Bottle King in Ramsey. I purchased 3 of them earlier today. They seem to have more if you are interested.

[DavidG]

Dom, yes it is a journey and you are wise to take small-medium steps starting out. That’s part of why I mentioned palates changing directions over time: avoiding cases upon cases of stuff you discover you don’t like as much as you thought you would. The other part is the journey itself, learning as you go.

There are some who say it’s futile to buy less than a full case of any given wine, that you have to follow it as it develops over the years. I say baloney. While that’s a fun and educational exercise, doing so from the start will fill your cellar with wines you don’t love. Much better to start broadly, with fewer bottles of more different wines, at least until you have a solid feel for your palate. Unless you have unlimited funds and unlimited space.

Enjoy the journey, take time to smell the roses along the way.

[Dom_P]

Dom, yes it is a journey and you are wise to take small-medium steps starting out. That’s part of why I mentioned palates changing directions over time: avoiding cases upon cases of stuff you discover you don’t like as much as you thought you would. The other part is the journey itself, learning as you go.

There are some who say it’s futile to buy less than a full case of any given wine, that you have to follow it as it develops over the years. I say baloney. While that’s a fun and educational exercise, doing so from the start will fill your cellar with wines you don’t love. Much better to start broadly, with fewer bottles of more different wines, at least until you have a solid feel for your palate. Unless you have unlimited funds and unlimited space.

Enjoy the journey, take time to smell the roses along the way.

Thanks, the older I get the more I realize I need to do just that.

To that end, I bought a few 2005's today to get started on the tasting journey. I figured they would be old enough to give me a sense for what to expect in something that has some age on it.

First up for the next several days are:

2005 Château Sociando-Mallet
2005 Château Haut-Bages Libéral
2005 Château Duhart-Milon (which I was able to find in 375ml locally)

Also, because I have FOMO, and as I noted earlier, I purchased these. Worst case scenario, I assume I'll be able to sell them for close to what I bought them for... but I'm not planning on that

[DavidG]

You’re off to a good start Dom!

The 2005s are known for lots of concentration and extraction - plenty of tannin and fruit - and may still be in the young stage. One of the comments about “modern” winemaking you’ll see here is that the wines have so much stuffing that they take longer than the traditional 10 years to start showing well. And the worry that they may never turn into the same wines as the older vintages that we all cut our teeth on. It seems every generation goes through this.

2005 is already 17 years down the road but the wines generally will still be tighter than a lot of ‘80s-era Bordeaux were at 17. So they may still need 1-3 hours of air to start showing well, and may not be representative of what a fully mature version will look like. The 375 may be more ready than the 750s.

[Dom_P]

You’re off to a good start Dom!

The 2005s are known for lots of concentration and extraction - plenty of tannin and fruit - and may still be in the young stage. One of the comments about “modern” winemaking you’ll see here is that the wines have so much stuffing that they take longer than the traditional 10 years to start showing well. And the worry that they may never turn into the same wines as the older vintages that we all cut our teeth on. It seems every generation goes through this.

2005 is already 17 years down the road but the wines generally will still be tighter than a lot of ‘80s-era Bordeaux were at 17. So they may still need 1-3 hours of air to start showing well, and may not be representative of what a fully mature version will look like. The 375 may be more ready than the 750s.

Thanks David

That’s great information. I’ll decant them as you suggest before drinking. I guess as I’m at the beginning of this journey I may never know what I missed prior to this “modern” era and maybe I shouldnt try to find out . If they are to my liking I may pick up several more 2005s and let them sit for a few years. I’ll see what I can find prior to 2005 that won’t break the bank also.

[JoelD]

You’re off to a good start Dom!

The 2005s are known for lots of concentration and extraction - plenty of tannin and fruit - and may still be in the young stage. One of the comments about “modern” winemaking you’ll see here is that the wines have so much stuffing that they take longer than the traditional 10 years to start showing well. And the worry that they may never turn into the same wines as the older vintages that we all cut our teeth on. It seems every generation goes through this.

2005 is already 17 years down the road but the wines generally will still be tighter than a lot of ‘80s-era Bordeaux were at 17. So they may still need 1-3 hours of air to start showing well, and may not be representative of what a fully mature version will look like. The 375 may be more ready than the 750s.

Thanks David

That’s great information. I’ll decant them as you suggest before drinking. I guess as I’m at the beginning of this journey I may never know what I missed prior to this “modern” era and maybe I shouldnt try to find out . If they are to my liking I may pick up several more 2005s and let them sit for a few years. I’ll see what I can find prior to 2005 that won’t break the bank also.

2001,2002,2004,2006 all represent great value and are vintages that I often try to backfill. Often able to find wines at 1/3 to 1/2 of the price of the renowned vintage of the same wine.

[Dom_P]

Thanks for the info Joel, I'll broaden my searches. I was focused on some of those "renowned" vintages as you probably noticed.

[Dom_P]

Made my first purchase at wine.com and used some discounting advice from a fellow BWE'er to save quite a bit of dough.

1 x Chateau Lanessan 2018
1 x Chateau Montrose 2014

and purchased the StewardShip Membership which should help quite a bit with shipping costs over the next year