Musigny151/GBF/Comte/JC et al: 2016 Mouton @ $610, buy or no buy?

[JimHow]

I’ve never sold wine before.
If I bought a case would I be able to sell it at a profit at a later date?
How does one go about selling wine at auction?

[JimHow]

Would it be a wise investment:

a) IN SPITE OF the impending nuclear winter.

b) BECAUSE OF the impending nuclear winter.

c) NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT due to impending nuclear winter.

[jckba]

I would think that by buying a top wine from a top vintage for less than the prevailing market price and closer to its original futures price represents a definitive buy but when you couple that with the fact that Mark said it was the greatest young wine he has ever tasted (and he knows a thing or 2 about fine wine); you can safely bet the farm.

[JimHow]

Gulp. I can get a pristine sealed case for $610.72 per bottle, tax free.

[JimHow]

Fuck it, cash is trash.

[JimHow]

Ok I'm heading down to NH, unless somebody talks me out of it I'm going to pull the trigger.

[Nicklasss]

Same as jckba.

That price looks awesome for that wine, and rdgarding comments from musigny 151, GBF or other critics, i guess you can be wrong.

But if you want to resell it in x years, as the wine is the "best young wine" musigny 151 had, you must never open the case, or you will "How it".

Personnaly, i've been considering to buy 1 or 2 bottles since a few months now, but i don'tvthink it will happen. But, in 2021, i bought a bottle of the 2018 Rousseau Chambertin, and that too i thought it would never happen...

[JimHow]

I’m on the road…

[Nicklasss]

The new "1982 Mouton".

With that case, and the case of 2015 Canon you already have, you'll be in business.

[JimHow]

That’s two cases of Canon, Nicola, ha I was thinking the same thing, we should start a business.

Agent How reporting: I have just entered the Granite State, over.

[JimHow]

Agent How reporting from parking lot of Hampton North store 76. Have secured 18 bottles of 2016 Mouton Rothschild in three 6 bottle original wood cases. Stash has been secured safely in the Blue Demon. Returning to BWE Lewiston Base, will provide full report upon return. Over.

[JimHow]

…

[jckba]

Now that is a pretty sight!

[Musigny 151]

If you were going to buy any wine for $610.72, Mouton 2016 would be it.
You did well grasshopper

[Racer Chris]

Jeebus!

[Comte Flaneur]

No brainer, well done BD.

[Comte Flaneur]

Fuck it, cash is trash.

Inflation is eroding the purchasing power of your cash at a rate of 8% a year.

[JimHow]

Agent How reporting back from BWE Lewiston Base.
The wines were safely transported from the Granite State to the Great State of Maine by the 2008 Corolla Blue Demon, at 366,150 miles I don't think it has a Blue Book value but is worth probably about one-tenth of the value of the 18 bottles of wine.
Would that the wines age as well as this puppy, it drives like it did on Day One.

I thank all of my BWE enablers.
I've had my eye on these wines for some time now.
New Hampshire is currently having a 15% off for mixed case European wine sale.
The normal price for this 2016 Mouton is $718.49.
At 15% off that's $610.72 per bottle, tax free.
I was in communication with the Hampton North store, Store 76.
Their inventory said 18 in stock.
I asked if they had 12 in the original wood case.
Store manager Junko told me, yes, all 18 bottles were in original wood cases.
I said, ok, well I'd like 12 bottles in wood case plus one extra bottle.
When I got there she had pulled out the three wooden cases.
Are you sure you don't want to have this third sealed case?
I really hate to make you crack open that case, I really only want one more bottle.
I hate to crack open this case, she said, you'll never see another deal like this!
Hmmmm....
You'll recoup your investment in no time, she said....
Okay, okay, I said, you talked me into it....
The diminutive Junko loaded the cases on to a dolly and brought them out to the Blue Demon.
She insisted on loading them into the back seat herself.
I figure either my heirs or I can eventually sell two of the three cases and drink the third one for free.
Or maybe we'll drink them all! I'm glad they came in six-bottle cases.
By my count there are still 47 bottles left in the NH system!
They have these sales that cover Bordeaux about 5-6 months out of the year, plus another couple months with the $25 gift cards for $150 purchases.
They also allow internet wine orders at certain stores for in-person pick-up.
The stores closest to me that I frequent are Portsmouth Circle and the two I-95 stores, Hampton North and South.

Thank you again to all of my BWE enablers!

Long live BWE!

BD

[Musigny 151]

With three cases, you may be tempted to pop a bottle. You might want to wait; it has retreated into the bottle for a long snooze. Five years minimum

Now a word about care. Cellar at 55 degrees obviously, but almost as important is what music to soothe its savage soul. Mozart perhaps, some Beethoven but avoid the 5th and 9th Symphonies, way too massive.

[JimHow]

Ha I’m sure I’ll uncork one with you at some point, Musigny151, you were my main enabler. But, no, as Nicola will tell you, if I crack open even one case they will soon be gone. I may just have to buy another lone bottle at some point. I figured I couldn’t go wrong based on the recommendations of you, GBF, Comte, and JC, along with the 100 point rating of one Leve. Between 2008 Cristal ($170), 2015 Canon ($94), and 2016 Mouton, I’ve gotten some nice tax free deals in NH in recent years. I even bought another 2016 Lynch on sale this week in honor of Comte, and a mystery wine gift for JC in recognition of his service above and beyond the call of duty.

[ericp]

Great buy BD, but do not open! They’ll be How’d in no time

[JoelD]

I'd be in for 1-3 of these if you have any to spare out of the case that you have to crack open!

[JimHow]

Ha, Joel, if I crack open even one they'll be gone quicker than the case of 2000 Lynch I made the mistake of cracking open on the day I purchased it. I may have to buy some odd bottles, there are 47 left but my sources are telling me that more are being purchased as we speak....

[JoelD]

Ha, understandable. Well if you do, I'd be happy to get some. No worries if not. I think I can still get them around 680 after tax here which will probably be laughable at some point in 10-15 years.

[JimHow]

I bought them as an investment, I’m trying to mix up my portfolio a little bit. Cash is trash. My mindset in these high end wines in my cellar is I’ll drink them unless I need the money when I’m like in my late seventies, etc. I’m guessing they’re not likely going to lose value. It’s a problem my heirs will likely have to deal with.

[AKR]

wow! cash is indeed trash

[marcs]

Honestly, I think buying wine for an investment is always dangerous but it's become almost impossible since the recent changes in U.S. tax laws seem to require 1099 reporting of all sales proceeds. So you are talking a 20% minimum markdown from retail prices + 28% collectibles tax on gains. If you don't keep close track of your basis you will get absolutely massacred, even if you do its going to be very hard to make real money. Cash may be trash but you don't have to incur a 50% transaction cost or whatever in order to spend it.

Also, bear in mind that 8% inflation also means that your assets have to appreciate 8% per year net of storage costs and transaction costs in order to keep up. Cash is guaranteed not to appreciate like that, but your other assets are also not guaranteed to show that level of appreciation.

Of course for people like us we get a lot of value from the prospect of drinking the wine, going down to the cellar to pet the bottles and murmering "my precious, my precious" to them repeatedly, etc. etc. So perhaps it's enough just not to lose money if you have to sell someday.

[JimHow]

Yes, I factored that all in, I’m more laissez faire about these fancy wines in my cellar, I’ve got enough saved up that I think it’s highly unlikely I’ll be selling any of these wines in my old age, but I figure when I’m 75, 80, 85, etc., unless I’m really destitute for some reason, I’ll likely end up just drinking them. It’s an extravagance that is still a minuscule percentage of my investment portfolio. And if I don’t, I’ll let my heirs worry about it after I’m gone. I’ve never really bought wine for investment purposes, but my cellar, like my houses, is worth substantially more than what I paid for these assets. Plus, I’m just excited to have 18 bottles of 2016 Mouton in my cellar!

[marcs]

that number allows you TRUE LIFETIME SECURITY as to your supply of 2016 Mouton Rothschild -- a priceless feeling!

[JimHow]

Ha I’ll bring some to the great tasting room in the sky, we’ll be drinking then into eternity.

[Comte Flaneur]

Marc you are such a party pooper

[Nicklasss]

After a 3rd World War, these 2016 Mouton Rothschild will worth more than gold or platinum. You did well BD.

[JimHow]

You know what did it for me, was the six bottle cases. I really have no qualms about at the very least breaking even, especially since I’ve got them in these nice compact pristine six bottle cases. I just kind of wish I had one loose bottle out there, Ike I originally planned, for when you came and visited me! There’s still 11 days left in the March sale….

[Racer Chris]

You know what did it for me, was the six bottle cases. I really have no qualms about at the very least breaking even, especially since I’ve got them in these nice compact pristine six bottle cases. I just kind of wish I had one loose bottle out there, Ike I originally planned, for when you came and visited me! There’s still 11 days left in the March sale….

If you don't want to drink one alone, ...

[DavidG]

In the words of the BD himself: Well done. Well done indeed!

[Musigny 151]

Honestly, I think buying wine for an investment is always dangerous but it's become almost impossible since the recent changes in U.S. tax laws seem to require 1099 reporting of all sales proceeds. So you are talking a 20% minimum markdown from retail prices + 28% collectibles tax on gains. If you don't keep close track of your basis you will get absolutely massacred, even if you do its going to be very hard to make real money. Cash may be trash but you don't have to incur a 50% transaction cost or whatever in order to spend it.

Also, bear in mind that 8% inflation also means that your assets have to appreciate 8% per year net of storage costs and transaction costs in order to keep up. Cash is guaranteed not to appreciate like that, but your other assets are also not guaranteed to show that level of appreciation.

Of course for people like us we get a lot of value from the prospect of drinking the wine, going down to the cellar to pet the bottles and murmering "my precious, my precious" to them repeatedly, etc. etc. So perhaps it's enough just not to lose money if you have to sell someday.

Marc,
I pay capital gains and still come out ahead. Like everything else, you have to know what you are doing.

Buy wines at the top end like the Mouton, Cheval 2019 selling for less than $500. With prices of older vintages, and not particularly good ones, fetching a couple of hundred dollars more, it is pretty close to a no brainer. Like others here I loaded up on 2019 futures early, again pretty much a no brainer.

[JimHow]

If you don't want to drink one alone, ...

I'll save one to drink with you, Chris, but it'll have to be at least a couple blanquitos from now!

[Racer Chris]

If you don't want to drink one alone, ...

I'll save one to drink with you, Chris, but it'll have to be at least a couple blanquitos from now!

I was thinking more along the lines of one more single bottle bought before the sale ends, so you don't have to ruin one of your investment grade owcs.

[marcs]

Honestly, I think buying wine for an investment is always dangerous but it's become almost impossible since the recent changes in U.S. tax laws seem to require 1099 reporting of all sales proceeds. So you are talking a 20% minimum markdown from retail prices + 28% collectibles tax on gains. If you don't keep close track of your basis you will get absolutely massacred, even if you do its going to be very hard to make real money. Cash may be trash but you don't have to incur a 50% transaction cost or whatever in order to spend it.

Also, bear in mind that 8% inflation also means that your assets have to appreciate 8% per year net of storage costs and transaction costs in order to keep up. Cash is guaranteed not to appreciate like that, but your other assets are also not guaranteed to show that level of appreciation.

Of course for people like us we get a lot of value from the prospect of drinking the wine, going down to the cellar to pet the bottles and murmering "my precious, my precious" to them repeatedly, etc. etc. So perhaps it's enough just not to lose money if you have to sell someday.

Marc,
I pay capital gains and still come out ahead. Like everything else, you have to know what you are doing.

Buy wines at the top end like the Mouton, Cheval 2019 selling for less than $500. With prices of older vintages, and not particularly good ones, fetching a couple of hundred dollars more, it is pretty close to a no brainer. Like others here I loaded up on 2019 futures early, again pretty much a no brainer.

Yeah, part of this is that I have a drinker's cellar full of odd lots. I have a lot of good wines that I like but I didn't spend a lot to get pristine lots of high end wines that appreciate. (Although even those have some risk, 2005 and 2010 futures did not really appreciate that much for a long time). For a cellar like mine the transaction costs are a killer. Even for those with higher end wines I would question how returns compare to other investments post transaction costs, but I'm sure you can make a solid profit on selected lots.

BTW small note on capital gains -- you can pay long term cap gains if you have a wine related business. If you are a hobbyist/collector you are stuck paying 28% which is the collectibles rate.

WIth that said my basis is high enough that I doubt I will end up paying that much tax overall if I sell a large parcel.

[stefan]

Don't you avoid the capital gains tax on wine if you trade rather than sell? I guess that taking store credit qualifies as a trade since you never actually receive any financial distribution.