How much does a good bottle cost?

[Michael-P]

I used to try to stick to the rule of no more than $100/bottle. Then some 8 or so years ago I crossed the line for a Sauternes (not even Yquem!). Then James Grandison (wonderful guy, great chef, and knowledgable and devoted wine lover - and got BWE into Ch Margaux in 05, the best wine dinner experience I ever had) told me at a small BWE offline in San Francisco some 5 or so years ago that he had re-focused his wine budget to buying fewer wines but of better quality. Somehow that thought has seeped into my pea brain over the passing years and now I find myself often spending over $200/bottle. Please help me stop!!!

[stefan]

It would be great if James would come back to BWE. I miss him.

Regarding your plea for help:

1. Is your wine buying causing you financial problems?

2. Do you get $200 worth of enjoyment from a $200 bottle of wine?

If your answer to #1 is no and to #2 is yes, I do not understand why you want to stop. Nevertheless, here goes:

i. It is so annoying to open an expensive premoxed white Burgundy that you should never buy one.

ii. First growth Bordeaux are ridiculously overpriced in comparison to other outstanding Bordeaux. Moreover, it rarely happens that the best Bordeaux of a vintage is a first growth.

iii. Garage wines taste like crap from CA or OZ.

iv. Is Yquem really that much better than Climens or Rieussec? Heck, you can't tell it apart from de Fargues when tasting blind.

v. Fancy red Burgundy is too often thin and acidic.

vi. If you are into cult cabs, ha-ha-ha.

vii. All Italian wines are doctored with additives that will kill you or at least rot your teeth and guts.

[jal]

At some point a few years ago, $150-200 for a bottle was a huge splurge, and I would buy a couple of bottles a year at that price. Right now, prices (especially for red Burgundies) are so out of whack that the same quality wine I used to get for $150 goes for $750-800. This is no longer a splurge but madness. Example - Mugnier Chambolle Amoureuses or Musigny were less than $200 for the 1997, 1998 and 1999 vintages on release. Nowadays, the 2006 Mugnier Amoureuses or Musigny sells for $600 and the 2005 for more than a grand!!! Same goes for Rousseau, Vogue and Roumier, all my favorite Burgundy producers. Are they kidding me? Who pays these prices?

[JimHow]

I remember getting a 1993 DRC Echezeaux for $100 back around 1999....

[JCNorthway]

I have not ventured above the $100 a bottle threshhold except for a few bottles of 1989 Bordeaux that are to celebrate anniversaries. My instincts want to say that it's hard to imagine a $200 bottle would be that much better than others in the $75-125 range. But since I've not had any of those $200 bottles, I cannot say with certainty.

Jon

[Comte Flaneur]

$100 is usually a fairly inpenetrable glass ceiling for me too, and if i go over that the wine has to be anomalous in price, and sometimes you do get good anomalies.

[stefan]

Checking my records, I found that in 2009 I paid over $200 only once, and that was for a magnum. On the other hand, the number of bottles I bought in '09 whose current retail price was over $200 is sizable (hee, hee, hee).

[DavidG]

While all that is written above is true, from another perspective:

In my experience, you can find good bottles of wine for ~$15. Lots of 'em. If you like the '07 Cotes du Rhones.

I have stopped buying first growths, Yquem, white burgs, and almost all cult cabs. I spent up to $200/btl on occasion for some '05 Bdx. That's not happening any more either.

[stefan]

>>
In my experience, you can find good bottles of wine for ~$15. Lots of 'em. If you like the '07 Cotes du Rhones.
>>

Or even if you hate CdR.

One fun thing about the high prices is that the value of our cellars have gone up, up, up. I am trying to decide what $300+ Burgundies to take to take for the BWE Burg dinner on Friday. The increase in Bdx prices, except for the first growths, is less, but still substantial. I checked '86 Gruaud-Larose on WineSearcher. You might be able to get it at $145 retail but it might be $200 (I checked WineSearcher Pro Version). I paid $32.99 according to the stickers on the bottles and possibly got 20% off that. On my "Long Weekend in Berkeley" thread I reviewed 13 wines we had brought or bought. $79 average current price, but probably my average price was no more than half that; probably considerably less if I subtract the two bottles I bought out there.

You can drink pretty well on a teacher's salary.

[DavidG]

Well if you count stuff you bought a long time ago it's really easy to drink well on the cheap. But Michael was asking about current purchases. And I think that you can still drink well for $15 even if you don't like Cotes du Rhones, and even if you need to depend on current purchases. But if you're hooked on premier or grand cru Burgs from the best producers, 1st or 2nd growth Bdx, cult cabs, etc., your habit has become REAL expensive over the past decade.

I went through a buy less bottles of better quality phase. It was a good excuse to buy some really expensive bottles, and for the most part they've given me the enjoyment I expected of them. But at some point you realize that you've got plenty of good bottles and that's just another excuse for spending big bucks, so you cut back on that too.

[Tom In DC]

Depends where you are, I guess...

In the piazza of a small town in Tuscany or the Langhe, it's usually about 10 euro. A bit more on the sidewalk at a bistro in Paris...

[Chasse-Spleen]

I have to say I've changed my mind. I'm not really that sure that I like the '07 CdRs that much. I think they're kind of flabby. I've been going more for the '08s these days, which I think have a little more structure.
-Chasse

[aimeedogdogdog]

How good a bottle is good? Hmm... I think it really boils down to what you are looking for. Some good/great wines cost betwen $20-$100.
From what I see, there are 3 ways to deal with the problem.

A. The easy way (the alternative way):
I agree with everything said so far by other folks. What I can add here are some great but less popular and thus less expensive wines(might not your style though):
1. Muscadets from Domain de la Pepiere
2. German Rieslings
3. Chablis
4. Great bordeaux (minus 1st - 3rd growth mostly) from great vintages, or great bordeaux from less popular vintages.
5. Some great but less expensive italian wines
6. Some great but less expensive spanish wines
7. Sauternes (minus Yquem)
8. Great Ports

I think Cal wines are expensive and Australian wines could be good if that's your thing. Not much choice here.


B. The medium way (the found-and-lost way):
If the turn-to-other-wines strategy doesn't work for you, try to sleep on it overnight before you buy. Or return it a few days later after you buy and admire the bottle (at least this strategy works for some mothers on clothes who are in Tessa's playgroup. ) Or buy it on the internet, put it to the cart and when you are about to check out, just delete the cart, or cold-turn off the computer so you lose all information (another trick from another mother in Tessa's playgroup). Well I think there are times we could all learn from the great women.

C. The hard way (the self-destructive way):
If you want a drama, mortgage your house and buy all you could afford once and for all. After this drama, you might be able to overcome the problem. (Similar to that the cops torture the rapers by electrifying them everytime they have a desire when watching the sex tape?)

Good luck, Michael! I feel for you. We all have the same prolem here.
Werner

[DavidG]

Chasse - '08s are more structured and offer great value as well. Personal style preference for the '07s here, but wont turn my nose up at the '08s.

Werner, love your commentary. Regarding option 3 - the hard way: Instead of mortgaging the house, wouldn't it be cheaper to just wire yourself up and apply a good jolt every time you think about making an expensive purchase?

[rjsussex]

I must be a rather mean limey as £30 is my max. Best value for me is between c£10 and c£20.

Richard

[Nicklasss]

Michael, you have to find yourself a woman. She'll take care of your money and you won't have the choice to enjoy some good 15 $ bottles .

Seriously, today it is true that when an estate or a winemaker received good reviews from the critics, the wine go quickly over 100 $! But there are still wines under 100 $ (and I think it will always be true) that are kinda really good. Lately, I have been rediscovering the Languedoc/Roussillon and some producers are making really interesting stuff, not jammy, really terroir driven, tannic and elegant too (Mas Jullien, Domaine Hortus Grande Cuvée, Domaine Gauby). As you like Pomerol wines, maybe try some Barbaresco. You''ll find back the lovely violets flowers there, with good tannic grip. If you want to stick to Bordeaux, well even if i drink some bottles > 100 $ few time a year, I think the 35-65 $ range, from good to great vintages, is where you find stuff that is really good. Pack some Haut-Bailly (2004-2005-2006) or Sociando-Mallet, in the cellar. I think you'll enjoy them for a long time. If you can find it under 100 $, the 2004 Chateau l'Église-Clinet is a really nice bottle.

Finally, my love for Côte-Rôtie will never stop, and even if the guigal top cuvée are expensive, almost any basic Côte-Rôtie will give you pleasure (really elegant and defined wines), and cost less than 100 $.

Hope it helps.

Nic

[stefan]

I have decided that a good bottle costs $14.44. At least that is what I paid one year ago for the delicious 2005 Ravenswood Big River Zin that I drank for lunch today. So I never again will pay more than $15 for a bottle of wine.

Well, maybe except for special Bordeaux. And Burgundy. And Champagne, of course. And maybe the occasional special Rhone and Alsatian wine. And Montalcino, Barola, and Barbaresco. And St. Innocent PN. And Ridge Zins.

But other than those and maybe a few other special wines, $15 is my new limit. I do reserve the right to compute in 1970 dollars when buying older wines.

[Jay Winton]

We paid a $100 for a bottle of a Trefethen reserve cab we tasted at the winery that got kudos in WE recently-this was per mrs vino. I'll put it away for a few years and see if I think it's worth the money. I doubt I will say it was but if mrs vino says buy... We also purchased a case for $300 of vineyard designated 2004 Conn Creek cabs after tasting-they were delicious now and will improve. $25pb is much more my speed. One of the cabs came from their Eisele (sp)area growths which is generally pretty pricey juice IIRC. So Nic's rec may not lower your purchase price after all, Michael.

[JCNorthway]

Interestingly, just last evening I read an article by Lettie Teague in the current Food and Wine magazine. It was titled, "Is Greatness Overrated." In part of the article, she attends a dinner in Chicago hosted by some serious collectors. At least one of the names sounded familiar to me from the old WS wine discussion groups. She was trying to determine if "great wines" were really that much better than "good wines."

http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/is- ... -overrated

Jon

[stefan]

>>
but having just had so many extraordinary wines with Scott and his friends, I realized I would have no context for good wine were it not for great wine.
>>

This is a good point. I am happy drinking good wine all the time but want to understand the range of quality in the wine regions I like.

[Houndsong]

Actually I was a little perplexed by that quote. If she had said "if it were not for non-great wines I would have no context for great ones" I could understand her sense of appreciation of the great ones. As it is I cannot understand how drinking great wines occasionally allows her to appreciate good ones all the more. I also am not sure, does she conclude that great wines are "really that much better than 'good wines.'"? I think so?

[DavidG]

A few of the lines in that article makes the group sound like a bunch of wine-snobs. Knowing and having had dinner with a couple of them, I don't think it's an accurate portrayal, but maybe I'm a wine snob... I think some of the self-deprecating stuff was just written for effect. There was a classic eBob argument over this article on the other board.

[Jay Winton]

A few of the lines in that article makes the group sound like a bunch of wine-snobs. Knowing and having had dinner with a couple of them, I don't think it's an accurate portrayal, but maybe I'm a wine snob... I think some of the self-deprecating stuff was just written for effect. There was a classic eBob argument over this article on the other board.

I've bought wine from Daniel Posner and he assured me he did not say there were no good wines under $100 so the whole article is suspect to me.

[stefan]

>>
There was a classic eBob argument over this article on the other board.
>>

David, can you give a link for those of us who cannot tolerate wading through the trash on that board in order to find a thread?

[DavidG]

A quick search doesn't turn anything up. Maybe it turned nasty enough to be deleted?

[tim]

Or someone said something that Mark disagreed with....

[Michael-P]

Werner: Too late, option C has been fully executed!

Nic: Your first idea is a good one!

Jon: Interesting article. The group does come across as snobs, even though I can see they might not be. Just lovers of great wine.

I recall a simialr article about a food critic that had a wine collector friend and while doing some cellar cleaning that wine friend gave the food critic a few bottles of first growths from off vintages. The foodie decided to have a small dinner party (with a similar attendance as this one) to see if there was good value for money on these. The wine guy was invited, everyone had a good time, but all decided there was no hidden value in the off vintages. Meantime, the wine guy brought out a couple very great wines, which blew everyone away. And they all agreed that the $500/bottle wines were well worth it.

[DavidG]

And they all agreed that the $500/bottle wines were well worth it.

Especially when someone else brings them!