Why are you not interested in Chateauneuf-du-Pape wines?

[HarryKaris]

Just curious to find out - is it because your palate isn't used to the 'Rhone taste' - bad experiences - bad Q/P .....OR????
Harry

[FrankD]

I think probably everyone here has enjoyed a Chateauneuf at some point, and probably most of us have a few in the cellar.

In my case the real problem is that certain foods make me think of Bordeaux or Burgundy, other foods make me think of Chianti or other Italian wines. It is rather rare that I cook something and say "hmm, this really needs a CdP." And that is rare enough that the dozen or so CdP bottles I have downstairs are sufficient. Of course I also have Cote Rotie, Hermitage, etc. An example of a CdP dish would be the Todd English recipe for lamb crusted with a black olive tapenade.

So the reason I haven't developed a larger collection of CdP is kind of parallel to why I never worked to collect Spanish wines. I have tasted some really excellent Spanish wines and I have a few Riojas etc. downstairs. But it never became an obsession, and I don't get that food-wine trigger very often.

One more thing, of course the best CdP's (including a lot of the wines you post about) have rather high prices especially now. That is discouraging, to be shut out of the top tier.

Frank

[Nicklasss]

Hi Harry,

so I will be able to see you in DC? I'll be really happy about that, as we missed a previous chance to meet in Germany. My souvenir of you, from the 2003 NY convention, is to far away.

For me, Chateauneuf-du-Pape have sometimes a warm alcohol feeling in mouth and I don't appreciate that too much. especially that today, lots of Chateauneuf are between 14 and 15 % alcohol. Also, I have to realise that I like a good refreshing acidity in white and red wines. And this sometimes might be a problem to me with CdP.

But, at the same time, i like some of them but I would say not the majority. I like especially when they have a (relative for CdP) high Mourvedre content, as the austerity/acidity and black berries/leather of the Mourvedre, add thing i like to the CdP. Beaucastel come to my mind, as a good one.

This weekend, I will probably buy 2 or 3 bottles of the 2004 Clos St-Jean Deus Ex Machina, as they will be reduced a bit here, and I read that the 2004 vintage has 40 % mourvedre. and I think you always had good reviews about that one.

But please, continue to report on those wines. Of course, you spike our interest on that wines.

Nic

[Comte Flaneur]

If you had to boil it down to one word it would be "grenache" - you either like it or you don't (just as you were either with George Bush in the war on terror or against him - there is no middle ground, no fence sitting). My view on grenache is coloured by some traumatic experiences with some Barossa wines.

I think Nic's point is well taken, and if you had to boil it down to two words it would be "grenache (and) alcohol". I remember at a dinner a year ago in Kittle House and we had a 1990 Marcoux, which was reverred around the table. My abiding memory of that wine was the burning sensation at the back of my throat. Or as Monty Python would put it "that lingering afterburn."

If you had to boil it down to three words the third would be "finesse" (or lack thereof) and the fourth would be "poise" or "balance" (lack thereof) compared to the finest burgundy bordeaux or even northern rhones.

I really enjoy C9s and have quite a few cases, but the only one I ever tasted that I thought was absolutely top notch was Beaucastel 1989, a fabulous wine. Despite my mixed feelings after our rhone tasting last December, I am still willing to change my opinion, and look forward to reading your book Harry.

[JimHow]

Other than Bordeaux, my experience with wine is limited. My experiences with California, Italy, Germany, Spain, are very limited. I've been drinking more Burgundy in the past year or two, and one of my goals in the year ahead is to expand next into the Rhone valley.

[Winona Chief]

Harry,

I like grenache and grenache blends and I'm interested in Chateauneuf du Pape wines. It's my second favorite red (after Bordeaux) and my favorite wine with those wonderful winter stews that I like to make. I enjoy reading your posts on Chateauneufs. Please continue!

I probably have more Beaucastel, Pegau, Janasse-Chaupin and Clos des Papes than any others. But with the rapid escalation in prices of those, my recent purchases have shifted to included Bastide St. Dominique - Secrets de Pignan VV, Clos du Mont Olivet - Papet and Domaine du Caillou - Les Quartz (I really like the 2000 Quartz).

Chris Bublitz

[stefan]

Lucie and I drank a very nice '03 Eddie Feraud CdP the other night with Ratatouille on Polenta. I remarked to her at the time, and she agreed, that the secret to liking CdP is not to drink it very often. I am referring, of course, to basic CdP, not the wines you drink, Harry.

Some Grenache based wines taste foxy to me and high alcohol ones tire my palate. I find even good ones boring if I drink CdP too often. On the other hand, I am never bored by a good Bordeaux. Just my taste.

stefan

[FrankD]

It's interesting to see other people's responses. A really good CdP has the most wonderful texture, it's like fragrant purple silk.

One thing that can be hard to deal with is the raunchy bacon scent, sometimes that gets rather distracting.

F

[DavidG]

Who says I'm not interested in CduP? My palate aligns pretty closely with Chris Bublitz' - CduP is right up there after Bordeaux. Give me some wine with stuffing! None of this week-old weak tea Burgundy. I do think Ian has nailed it, though: Do you like Grenache? Do you like big wines that can handle a bit of alcohol? I don't agree with Ian on lack of poise or balance, however. Guess it depends on your definition of well-balanced. Balance in CduP in some cases can be likened to 2 sumo wrestlers in equipose. Whereas in Burgundy it may be 2 anorectic ballerinas. Each have their adherents.

[DavidG]

(Homer Simpson voice): Mmmm... raunchy bacon scent.

[HarryKaris]

Great response and interesting answers my dear fellow wine lovers .....keep them coming....I'll add my point of view soon....

CdP-CdR-B-Harry

[JimHow]

2000 and 2001 Clos des Papes blew me away.

[Comte Flaneur]

Who says I'm not interested in CduP?

Likewise even though I have had mixed experiences with C9, it fascinates me. Also we are setting the bar pretty high here (at least I am) implicitly in comparing it to the great wines in northern rhone, Bordeaux and burgundy. I had one of my epithanous moments with a Vieux Telegraph 20 years ago - I must say I prefer the older style to the new, which I find too jammy (if my 98 VTs are anything to go by).

....I don't agree with Ian on lack of poise or balance, however.

Talking more on a relative basis David. One of the hallmarks of a great Bordeaux is impeccable balance. I have not experienced that in C9.

[DavidG]

Ian, I do think I understand what you mean about balance, and I agree in a sense. Bdx balance is effortlessly acheived - it is just there and it is often understated, leaving room for the compexity and elegance to express itself. That can happen in CdP as well, but in the most exciting wines balance may be acheived by something more akin to an unmovable object meeting an unresistable force. I have in my mind's eye a square of acid, alcohol, fruit, and tannin balanced on top of a point. In Bdx the components are in equal balance all fairly near the point. In CdP the components are in equal balance out near the edge of the square. That high-wire tension is what gives CdP its excitement.

[William P]

Because I can't afford a third addiction.

Bill

[Tom In DC]

Interesting discussion!

Bordeaux's balance may be impeccable to some, but too austere to others. The Maya 2000 discussion seems pretty close to this line of reasoning. Probably depends on which wines a taster experienced first. I tend to be pretty agnostic about wine, able to find beauty in any among the nastiest young Barolo, an Aussie Ooze-moster, or a perfectly aged Bordeaux.

As Winona Chief suggests, if we're having a stew in the middle of winter, CduP or Hermitage is what I'm pulling from the cellar...

[Claudius]

Guys,
Over the years I've rated Ch de Pape as somewhere between variable and over-rated.
Sure, I've had a few pretty good wines but most - by a long way - seems to be wines of little interest to me.
I don't think much of grenache from anywhere.

I've visited the area on multiple occasions and still can't get a taste for the wine.
In the Rhone, I go for Cote Rotie in preference (I have numerous producers' CR and at the moment not a single bottle of Ch de Pape or grenache) and I've got well over a 1000 bottles each of Bordeaux and Burgundy, and at at least that much Aust reds.

Of the other areas in the world, I like Tuscany and Piedmont better than Spain - though good Rioja and Ribera del Deuro is excellent too. It is just that not much of it is excellent! I spent 5 weeks in Spain and Portugal last year and kept hunting down French wines in shops.

[PappaDoc]

Claudius (Is it Mark?),

Have you ever had a mature Rayas. I've had the 78 and 85 Rayas and they blew me away! They were made in one of the dirtiest cellar in France and I believe 100% Grenache.

[Jay Winton]

I'm with DavidG and Chris. We love Southern Rhones-northern less so. Keep those notes coming Harry!!

[DavidG]

I'll go ga-ga over a great Cote Rotie or Hermitage, too. It's just that they seem to be fewer and further between than the multiplicity of great wines from CduP. Stylewise, yes they are different... and I love both the Syrahs from the North and the Grenache blends from the South for what they are.

[JimHow]

I was so impressed by that Pegau CdP Cuvee Laurence the other night. Very impressive how the high alcohol was not afactor at all. I'm looking forward to tryinging the 2006 Vieux Telegraphe "La Crau" I bought yesterday, Mr. Parker seems to be high on it.