Favorite 2005 Bordeaux?

[JimHow]

I think Bordeaux would be better off if Robert Parker never existed.

[Blanquito]

Other than owning too much 2005, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I love 1980's Bordeaux. I know that. I bought 2005 because virtually every winecritic on earth went ga-ga for it. But I really went long on 2005 for two reasons: (1) I hadn't engaged the auction market yet (where 2005 prices fetch some very nice mature Bordeaux), and (2) because I hoped these wines will become anothe 1982/86L/90/96L.

As for the whole "maturity" issue (pun alert!), I admire your ability to enjoy "young" Bordeaux, Jim. It's so French of you! I personally often just don't get that much from them, even though I often quite enjoy "young" Bordeaux, like the excellent 1996s we've shared over the years (LLC in particular). I just don't think they are at peak yet, for my palate. In fact, part of my enjoyment of younger wines is imagining where they will be when fully mature, like the 1996 LLC. That said, the 1999s are drinking very well right now... a classic early drinking vintage!

A few folks have chimed in that if they want fruit-forward wines, they go to California. That would be very true for my own part if you swapped "fruit-forward" with "early drinking".

No region does mature complexity like Bordeaux (though I am starting to put Piedmont up there). I was at a tasting of old wines recently, where we had old wines from Bordeaux, CDP, Napa, Spain and Barolo, all mostly from the 1980's or 1990. The Bordeaux were easily the best at the fully mature, complex thang-- the Napa wines were excellent and had survived but were still fairly grapey and unchanged; the Spanish wines were excellent but lacked the complexity of the Bordeaux and moreover, were released at fully maturity (having been aged at the bodega); the CDP's were over the hill; and the Barolo were disappointing for whatever reason.

This doesn't mean that young Bordeaux isn't great (although big, tannic vintages like 2000 offer me very little until at least age 10). It can be. But it can be so much better with age.

[JimHow]

Bordeaux has become like the Republican Party.

The Republicans took a concept....

Reaganism. Tax cuts. Trickle down. Etc.

And they ran with it....

Now we're left with Sarah Palin. And Rand Paul. And Bill O'Reilly. And Sean Hannity. Etc.

Likewise....

Bordeaux said.... Hey, 1982 is great. Ripe wines.... Great....

But then they went extreme, they went neo-con on us....

The 2005 Lagrange is the result....

Lagrange, for crying out loud....

The ultimate oh-so-beautifully-boring St. Julien....

Is now a grotesque, oaky, mouth-puckeringly alcoholic mess....

A DavidG kind of wine....

I mean, if they can fuck up Lagrange of all wines, goddamit, what's next?

Off with their heads, I say....

We need a revolution....

Off with Parker's head....

And Rolland....

And Mark Squires....

And the "garagistes". <rolls eyes>

"Off with their heads!"

Did you see those protesters in London calling for the heads of Charles and Camilla today???

There's revolution in the air, I tell you....

[JimHow]

Join me, blanquito....

Join us....

We are a minority....

We are small...

But we are free....

Join us in the revolution....

I am a mere country lawyer from Maine....

Just a humble country bumpkin....

But trust me...

Robert Parker is a myth.

A myth.

It is an insanity that one man dictates the market in such a way... indeed, even dictates how the wines are made....

These are wines that have been around for centuries....

Presidents, and popes, and philosophers have drunk these wines, in some cases for upwards of a millenia.

Patrick....

Trust me on this one...

Thomas Jefferson loved Lafite and Haut Brion....

Back in 1855-- nearly a century before His Majesty was born-- the Bordeaux merchants were lining up the best of their pre-phylloxera beauties for the Paris world fair....

And I'm going to tell you a little secret:

They never heard of Robert M. Parker, Jr., Esquire....

Okay?

Trust me on this one....

Lafite and Haut Brion were good long before a chunky little lawyer from Maryland was born....

Great Bordeaux has NOTHING-- zilch-- nada-- to do with what some dude named Bobby Parker thinks about these wines....

Join us, Blanquito....

Leave the herd....

I know you have it in you....

Trust me....

We are free.... We are free....

[DavidG]

I'm a little worried that 2005 could turn out to be a modern-day 1986. I've been in this game less than a decade, but one consistent theme has been reading / listening to people whine about their 86s...15 years, still not open, 20 years, hard as nails, 25 years, I think I may have detected some wine behind the tannin! Maybe I'm exaggerating since I mostly tend to hear about it when there's a problem, but I can't remember even once that I read someone rhapsodizing about how pleasurable or moving some 1986 was (other vintages with lower initial scores, like 83, 85, or 88 have wines that give that kind of experience).

Maybe someone can dig up the thread describing the BWE 1986 horizontal in NYC, I think in the fall of 2008. Most of the wines were singing, with the fruit easily standing up to the tannins. The wines were still young and had plenty of time to shine, but they were shining, showing the wisdom of being patient with them. So if you ask me, I hope the '05s DO turn out to be a reprise of '86. I actually think the '05s have more fruit than the '86s did at a similar stage.

[DavidG]

Drew Stroback -- never heard of him.

If the 2005s are only "moderately" higher in alcohol than the 1982s, I'll trade you Carl Crawford and Adrien Gonzalez in my fantasy league....

Sorry, Patrick, I'm just a country lawyer from Maine, but I'm just never going to believe the Bordeaux wines of, say, pre-1985 are anything close in alcohol to the wines of, say, post 1997.

And what is "half a percent," anyway?

If the ball had bounced an inch higher Bill Buckner might have fielded it...

If Gore had gotten 600 more votes in south Florida....

Shoulda, coulda....

Etc., etc....

I'll concede the point that the '05s are on average higher in alcohol than the '82s. But I don't think that will make a bit of difference in how enjoyable they are, since they have the fruit and tannin to remain balanced. The exception to my "doesn't matter" attitude lies in the intoxicating effects of the alcohol. You might not be able to enjoy that second or third glass of an '05 without getting more of a buzz than you want. That's a legitimate issue. But quality-wise, I don't think it's fair to say high alcohol is a negative on its own without considering the other characteristics of the vintage.

[rjsussex]

Back to the question: my QPR 05s, none of which show any sign of being unbalanced, are Durfort, De Pez, Cantemerle, Croix Beaucaillou (lovely wine: of Ducru), Moulin Riche (of Poyferre), Baron de Brane (of Brane) and Potensac. Fonroque and Gombeaude Guilllot (Pom) on right bank push the envelope but work.

Richard

[Blanquito]

Maybe Bordeaux was good before Parker came along, but nobody knew how much to enjoy it without him!

[DavidG]

Maybe Bordeaux was good before Parker came along, but nobody knew how much to enjoy a wine without Parker!

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[JimHow]

LOL, you know, the sad thing is that there is actually an element of truth to that....

[DavidG]

Probably true, Jim, and while some aspects of that are sad, on some level it has also been a good thing, getting people interested in and trying wines that they never would have heard of.

Your earlier comment, "Bordeaux would be better off if Robert Parker never existed" can be looked at from a number of perspectives. I imagine a lot of Bordelais are pretty happy with the increase in attention and sales that has accompanied Parker-mania. The increased revenue can't be bad for the ability of the Chateaux to do more in the vineyard and the winery if they choose to reinvest in their business. For the Bordeaux enthusiast, some of the changes might be welcome, while others may be reviled. Increased cost to the consumer is not a good thing, but on the other hand there are more consumers enjoying Bordeaux now than ever before (even if some of them mix it with Coke!).

[Blanquito]

Some classic, funny stuff, BD. I'm glad you haven't lost all faith in me (which I figured was a possibility when this thread went all Parker on us).

[JimHow]

Ha ha I have full faith in you blanquito, it is funny how we come up with these little truths in the subtlest of ways through our Socratic dialogue here....

[JimHow]

Interesting points, David, it will be a forever debatable question: Is Robert Parker "good" for Bordeaux?

[JCNorthway]

Regarding the alcohol question, I bought very little 2005 Bordeaux since I will likely be too old to enjoy it when it finally hits its stride. I did buy and have drunk a couple of low end wines that have very good fruit and balance, and are 13-13.5% alcohol. The other wine I bought due to tradition was the Pontet Canet. That may end up being drunk by my younger relatives, but I really wanted this vintage to go along with others I have bought. I went back to look at what I paid for recent vintages of the Pontet Canet, and it was a little eye-opening (these are all-in costs including shipping and/or sales tax).

2000 - $43.50
2003 - $63.24
2005 - $89.94

If my memory is correct, the price has continued to escalate in more recent vintages. So my take is that this producer has gone from a "no brainer" buy to a price that puts it on a QPR basis with a lot of others. So while we may be able to justify today's prices, it requires a bit more contemplation than in the past.

[JimHow]

My days of buying Pontet Canet have ended with the 2006 vintage, Jon.

[JCNorthway]

Should we blame BWE for the price escalation of Pontet Canet. We basically put it on the map for a lot of folks.

[JimHow]

Indeed, we knew about Pontet Canet before it was cool.

One of the first ten posts on BWE, in its earliest hours, was started by Jackdaw and joined in enthusiastically by other BWEers, singing the praises of Pontet Canet.

It is one of the reasons why Alfred Tesseron himself joined us for a vertical of his wines in NYC.

Sadly, like everything else, we have created a monster, and the fun has been ruined.

It donned on me as Alfred himself was showing me his big heavy bottle of 2004 Pontet Canet, a la Mouton.

[Chasse-Spleen]

So far, I think my favorite 2005 Bordeaux is Chateau Bourgneuf, the Pomerol estate. It is a bit on the modern side, but you can taste the beautiful merlot fruit, and it has great texture and good depth. I'm planning on drinking more (plus other QPR Pomerols) on Christmas with my family. My Mom makes an awesome roast beef dinner.

-Chasse

[JonB]

I have a friend who bought heavily 1990 left bank classed growth. Whenever he brings this up he rolls his eyes......they are still closed down.

That influenced me to buy a range of (expected) maturity wines. I'll let you know how that turns out in 30 years.....and what my favorite '05 is.

I'm thinking there will be a lot of candidates.

[Blanquito]

I just got some 2000 and 1996 Pontet Canet for $55/each. Good provenance.

Why pay $100+ for the 2009 PC, especially when it's 14 years the junior of the 1996?

[JCNorthway]

In today's market, $55 for the 1996 and the 2000 is pretty good. And you can't go wrong with those wines.

[stefan]

You are getting some good deals, Patrick. My wine merchant friend sold out to Spec's, so my days of getting great deals locally are gone. Sigh.

[Ramon_NYC]

Agree with all that $55 for the '96 and the 2000 PCs are very good deals.