Bordeaux, Parker, etc... It's all becoming irrelevant to me.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat May 07, 2011 3:02 pm

Yeah, Gerry, the impact on New Hampshire is very sad.
It is the end of an era, I'm afraid.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat May 07, 2011 3:16 pm

These wines being sold as futures at PJs are about at the very top end of what I am willing to pay, I suppose. I may buy a case each of some of these wines. But that is stretching the limit for me. The Lynches and Barons and Pontets are gone forever.

2009 Branaire Ducru $64
2009 Cantemerle $33
2009 Cantenac Brown $57
2009 Chasse Spleen $30
2009 d'Armailhac $45
2009 de Fieuzal $38
2009 d'Issan $62
2009 Giscours $58
2009 Grand Mayne $45
2009 Gruaud Larose $63
2009 Lagrange $55
2009 Lanessan $18
2009 Sociando Mallet $46
2009 Talbot $58

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat May 07, 2011 5:24 pm

No La Lagune? Lucie, Mr. & Mrs. Vino, and I have failed.

JonB · Post by **JonB** » Sat May 07, 2011 7:54 pm

I can empathize with both of you with the New Hampshire change (and Stefan's supplier also exiting the business).

Costco also decided to exit the Bordeaux classed growth market. After their large selection of 2005 futures, they had a very limited selection of 2006 futures at first tranche prices (e.g. $600+ for first growth while the market had discounted them to $300-400) and they realized their business model didn't work.

Costco still sells loads of wine, and quite a bit of it in the high range (there was a Cognac for around $23k a bottle at my local Costco recently), but their Bordeaux seems limited to spot buys.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat May 07, 2011 9:27 pm

Jim, I bought a handful of '09s in the $20-40 dollar range for every day drinking. My only two splurges were Talbot ($55) and Angelus ($275

). Both long-term favorites with a sentimental kicker. I'm tempted by Lanessan ($21 around here), and Clos Fourtet ($99, but I have fond memories of touring their cave). And I might even consider a few bottles of Pontet Canet @$150 if it were available locally.

JonoB · Post by **JonoB** » Sat May 07, 2011 9:31 pm

For what it is worth, the rescoring of 08 has had a downward affect on some of the prices in the UK.

OK. 08 prices still are too expensive for some firsts... But in terms of wine investment funds, China and stocks, he has a point. The bottom could very well fall out.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:58 pm

I haven't had a chance to get past the C's in his rankings.
Has there been a significant downgrading of the 2008s?
HWSRN says the 2008s "are classic and outstanding wines that represent excellent value."
Which it is?
Downgrade or "classic and outstanding"?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat May 07, 2011 11:05 pm

I'm a fan of La Lagune, Stefan, I have a case of the '04 and a couple of bottles of the 2005 in my cellar.

These are the PJs prices for the 2006, 2008, 2009:

2006: $43.97
2008 (prearrival): $40.97
2009 (prearrival): $55.97

I suppose those prices are at the far adge of rationality as well.

Have you had the 2006 yet?

HWSRN rated it 92-94 at one point, what was his final rating for the 2006?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun May 08, 2011 1:10 am

JimHow wrote:I haven't had a chance to get past the C's in his rankings.
Has there been a significant downgrading of the 2008s?
HWSRN says the 2008s "are classic and outstanding wines that represent excellent value."
Which it is?
Downgrade or "classic and outstanding"?

I haven't read the report, but I don't see "downgrade" and "classic and outstanding" as necessarily mutually exclusive.

Parker was standards of deviation more enthusiastic about '08s in barrel than anyone else. I've seen posts on various boards indicating a lot of the in-bottle scores came in at or below the low end of the barrel score range. Perhaps more in line with some of the other critics? Parker was so high on the '08s in barrel that despite the downgrade, it could still be a classic and outstanding vintage. Just not another vintage of the century.

I'm glad to hear that prices may have moderated a bit (at least in the UK), but I'm not pursuing any '08s unless they show up on retailers' shelves at good prices. I can wait for the bottom to drop out, and still have enough Bordeaux in the cellar to drink happily for years even if the bubble doesn't burst. I feel bad for everyone who just started with the '00s or later. Prices are just so damn high that most are shut out of the market for top Bdx.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:11 am

JonB wrote:

Costco still sells loads of wine, and quite a bit of it in the high range (there was a Cognac for around $23k a bottle at my local Costco recently), but their Bordeaux seems limited to spot buys.

That price is ridiculous at any level. I once tasted an etheral 1875 Cognac that was maybe $1000 per bottle.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:50 am

Here's a clip from one of the posters who buys a lot of Bdx, angsting over Pomerols that scored lower than predicted in barrel, apparently even including Petrus, which garnered "only" a measly 97 points. Sheesh!

I bought a lot of Pomerols in 2008 based on... ...the optimistic reviews. Unfortunately, most of the Pomerols scored at the low end or below the barel score ranges. Heck, even Petrus, which was hyped as one of the best ever with a barrel score of 98-100 ended up at a 97. Shocking

JonoB · Post by **JonoB** » Sun May 08, 2011 9:01 am

I think some have dropped a lot more!

The top three scores are 98 Lafite, 97 Petrus, 96 Pontet-Canet and the rest. Margaux and Mouton are 94... As are Latour and Haut Brion. OK, not disasters, but nothing of the many wines tipped for 100 made it, and only La Conseillante was upgrades from 94+ to 95. If you look at scores, bottom end 10 scores are the same on the whole as bottled 08 scores. Whatever rubbish is in the writing, and think that says far more about what he thinks of 10. No better than 08, but everyone is raving about it, so I'll write some rubbish.

I bought 08s before scores were published so dont really care. But I got an extra grand for my Mouton by selling it before the re-score. Some wines have dropped hugely... Branon I think was 94-97 dropping to 92? Very very different notes as well. There are plenty as such!

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sun May 08, 2011 9:27 am

No, Jim. I drank the '04 La Lagune recently and was surprised at how good it is already. I also drank the 2000, but it has a long way to go.

At $18, the Lanessan is a no brainer for those of us who drink wine every day and are willing to wait.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:51 am

Hey, everybody, ***thread drift*** here.

Can anyone else help me convince Jim to go to a marriage councelor to save his relationship with Bordeaux???

Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 11:28 am

Alex, there doesn't need to be bitterness.
I can just be thankful for what we once had, and move on.
There will always be a place in my heart for Bordeaux.
I still love Bordeaux....
I'm just not in love with Bordeaux any more.
There's got to be a morning after....

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:18 pm

Jono yes I've seen complaints about more substantial score drops. I guess I just don't have a lot of sympathy for speculators that whine about score or price drops from barrel to bottle or cellar.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:36 pm

Since the world seems to have been permanently affected by score mania, it will be very interesting indeed to see who takes on Robert Parker's mantle.

He will shortly be 64 years old.

I would be very surprised if he could - or would want to - keep up the mad pace of his life over the past two decades.

I think it would be in everybody's best interest if there were *never again* one person whose opinion carried as much weight.
It is simply not healthy, as competent as that person might be.

Hey, when I want to find out about a movie, for instance, I go to a site like "Rotten Tomatoes" and see what a *number* of critics have to say.
The books I buy are usually after reading at least two reviews.

Now, what I'd really, really like to see is a critic who focused on Bordeaux, to the virtual exclusion of any other region, and who had the time to investigate a wider range of wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Oh, I might add that there *is* one such person: Jean-Marc Quarin: http://www.quarin.com/

Without bad-mouthing him, however, and irrespective of his qualities and flaws, he suffers from one huge disadvantage: he doesn't write his notes directly in English.

The next Parker, or Parker wannabe *must* be an English speaker.

When you think about it, it's actually pretty strange that the marketplace for rare French wines is in New York, London, and (increasingly) Hong Kong - not Paris or Bordeaux.
And that "Anglo-Saxon" critics wield infinitely more influence than anyone in France...

Oh, and I can buy the great wines of Bordeaux cheaper in England or America than I can in the region of production....
Consolation prize: the huge selection of affordable Bordeaux on my doorstep. Some costing as little as 7 euros a bottle (and even less for white wines).

Alex R.

gremlins · Post by **gremlins** » Sun May 08, 2011 3:29 pm

Hi Jim,

With all the pent-up frustration over the ridiculous pricing of bordeaux since 2003, I can help but concluding that WA or RP has done more harm than good to people like us.

WA is the tool is used by bordelais and negociant to raise their price expecting glowing review from the man.

We have moved our wine buying pattern downwards from 1st growth to 2nd growth & so on. If the situation persist, we probably would be drinking only VDP very soon.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 3:36 pm

You read my mind, gremlins, I was just going to post a very similar note. There is no doubt in my mind that Parker has done more harm than good. There are other factors as well, but Parker has been a net negative for people who appreciate quality Bordeaux wine.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 3:50 pm

Parker...

Mentioning the very name at a dinner party in Bordeaux gets the blood flowing and tongues wagging...

He has clearly catapulted certain wines to stardom, and been responsible for some silly price tags (Valandraud, Le Pin, etc.) for wines that no one had even heard of before.
But he's not to blame, for instance, for the recent price rises of first growths, is he?
These were famous for centuries before Robert Parker was even born, and have always been considered "the best".

What he did was to "systemitize" ranking, making it more comprehensive and easier to relate to.
He is also a hard-working human tasting machine, and was the first to get in there from the get-go and publish ratings of wines in the spring after the vintage.
But, at at a time when the wines are often too young to appraise with any great accuracy...

In some ways, Parker has shown a great deal of courage: dissing name wines and writing things such as "life is too short for Croizet Bages" that everybody thought, but no one in the Old Boy network would ever dare write.
However, as we all know, a one-man system has to have its shortcomings.

Parker's enemies, of course, say that he likes heavily-extracted and oaky wines and that château owners make their wines to suit his palate.
Hmmm. Might this not be an urban myth?

A lawyer, Parker named his publication "The Wine Advocate".
But other than a little light knucke-rapping, has he ever seriously come out and said "THESE PRICES ARE MADNESS"?
Maybe he has, but I've never heard anyone who reads the Advocate say so.

Alex R.

gremlins · Post by **gremlins** » Sun May 08, 2011 4:17 pm

Hi Alex,

He did mentioned that prices are high but not mad. He did mentioned that the Asian or rather HK/China factor which is affecting demand and price.

But other than that he demonstrate little 'remorse' over his impact on pricing. But is he to be blamed or those who are ITB ?

As a self-proclaimed Wine Advocate may be we expect a little more from him (to be standing on our side).

I for one would be winding down my bordeaux addiction for good.

JonoB · Post by **JonoB** » Sun May 08, 2011 4:20 pm

He has said the bottom couldnfall out and prices return to something more reasonable, but it isn't quite the same and can't be used as an affective quote.

David, I understand you point entirely and completely agree. My advice to most is, buy stuff you can afford to drink, and if the price rises and you can't bring yourself to drink it, then sell it. I am completely anti-speculation despite the fact that it actually has made me some money and kept my business going so far!

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Jim,

In the same way I pity a young couple who want to buy a house these days, I pity the young person who wants to start laying down Bordeaux for the coming decades).

Because you either need to be rich, or to cut back very seriously in your budget to be able to finance such a thing.

I maintain that Bordeaux, along with Burgundy, will always be the benchmark for all the world's wines.
I, for one, cannot turn my back on them!

Yes, it hurts that the prices are going beyond our reach.
I do believe, however, that compromise solutions exist, on the other hand, those being:
- drinking the great wines on far fewer occasions (ouch! I know)
- keeping alert to special offers, scout for deals more than ever before
- try lesser vintages, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised - and they can be 50% less expensive, or more!
- and, getting on my hobby horse, investigating those wines that are not household names.

All the best,
Alex

gremlins · Post by **gremlins** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:09 pm

Hi Alex,

Its unfortunate that in this part of the world (Asia), the back vintages are not much cheaper.

Agree that we probably have to wait for bin-end sales to get a decent price.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:13 pm

What country are you in please?

Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:18 pm

The prices in NH for supposedly lesser vintages like 2007 and 2008 are higher than ever.
I wish the problem were as simple as a housing-market-like bubble.
It's not though. The Bordeaux market has been manipulated by speculators, wholesalers, investors, luxury-item-chasers, and the point-scoring of Robert Parker.
Robert Parker is as responsible as anyone for new releases of Lafite shooting up to $1000 or more.
In 2005 we could get 2002 Lafite for $100. Now we can't get new releases for ten times that amount.
This situation is not like a housing market bubble.
Regarding lesser wines, I'm just never going to buy them. It is just not part of my diet/lifestyle. Just not interested.
I tried the Villars of the world, and others whose names escape me. Just didn't do it for me.
I have one bottle of Latour left in my cellar, which i am bringing to Stuart's dinner next week.
After that, I will never have another bottle of Latour in my cellar for the rest of my life.
It is all going to the Rolex-watch-wearers.
Bordeaux is as groteque as those super-rich, status-conscious trophy seekers.
Bordeaux and its culture has become vile to me.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:34 pm

Wow, that's pretty extreme, Jim!

I would just argue about the meaning of the world "Bordeaux" in what you wrote.

Because the great growths are "Bordeaux" in the same way that Angelina Jolie is a "woman".

Best regards,
Alex R.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Yeah but Jim, your last post and a couple others in this thread are absolutely the justification for the price trends noted. Bdx in general ^, name Bdx ^^^^^^^^^^. I wouldn't impugn your motives as we all know you drink wine for the taste. But it only takes a relative handful of people with your attitude, whatever their motivation, to cause the market to behave as it has. You can lay it off to speculators, negociants, and Parker, but if, in the end, everybody wants the same 15-20 wines, well, turn out the lights because the party's over.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 8:48 pm

There have always been people like me, Hound, who want the same 15-20 wines. Those wines aren't $25-$100 anymore. They are $100- to $1,000. That tells me there is something very, very sick going on in the world of Bordeaux. Those wines didn't just suddenly get that expensive overnight through normal market forces.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun May 08, 2011 9:26 pm

Jim,

You write that "there is something very, very sick going on in the world of Bordeaux".

As any Bordelais will tell you, the factors influencing this are OUTSIDE Bordeaux, so no finger pointing!

For goodness sakes, if the wine weren't selling at those inflated prices, that would be one thing.
But demand has simply risen. There are up-and-coming countries who want the great growths, and categories of people who previously weren't interested or didn't have the money who are now in on the game.

There is no "sickness" other than the implacable law of supply and demand. Capitalism. The good ole American way?

Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 9:40 pm

"Capitalism. The good ole American way?"

You make my point, Alex!
Capitalism in America is in a very, very sick state of affairs.
If you think what is going on right now in the Bordeaux pricing structure is "normal" and "healthy," then Bob Parker is your man, because his 98-100s are rising the tide for everyone, including the mediocre stuff.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 9:43 pm

The $20 million a year salaries for .250 hitting baseball players is just good ole American capitalism. That doesn't mean it is a good thing for Major League Baseball or its fans.
It is all about greed. Give me mine, and screw everyone else.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:04 pm

It is not just me who is feeling something is rotten in Denmark.

Seemingly legitimate companies/agencies like Diego... Pop's... New Hampshire, among others, have gotten out of the Bordeaux rat race to one degree or another.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun May 08, 2011 11:54 pm

AlexR wrote:As any Bordelais will tell you, the factors influencing this are OUTSIDE Bordeaux, so no finger pointing!

There is no "sickness" other than the implacable law of supply and demand. Capitalism. The good ole American way?

Alex

Alex, I agree with much of what you have written in this thread, but your first sentence above is naive and incorrect. Yes, consumers outside of Bdx are the largest factor in the monstrous increases in Bdx prices. Yes, Parker played some role in driving the demand, though I probably place a lot more responsibility on the consumer than the critic. But another MAJOR factor in the supply/demand equation (your second sentence above) is the amount of wine held back by the top producers in Bdx. The past couple of years, the Bordelais themselves are just as guilty of speculation and market manipulation as anyone. Probably more so than Parker. I'm not talking about the little guys, I'm talking about the top 10-20 estates, the ones that set the tone for the public perception of Bordeaux and for whom there are enough multi-millionares to drive the price way out of our league. I'm not bitter about that, but I'm not happy either. No more top end Bdx for me. I could afford them, a few of them anyway, I suppose, but they just aren't worth it any more.

gremlins · Post by **gremlins** » Mon May 09, 2011 1:00 am

Hi Alex,

I am based in the hotspot of Asia, Singapore where prices of everything are going north.

Cheers,
Roland

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:00 am

Jim, all I can say is you have a discriminating palate. In this thread, you've said there's a bare handful or three of wines worth drinking - to your taste and for your time. How can you complain if the very many new entrants to the market agree with you? And those entrants may be tenfold the participants in the market five years ago, and they may have tenfold times tenfold the money to spend. As much as you might disagree, you've actually set the line. And those tenfold are toeing it.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:40 am

I've always liked the same handful of wines, Hound. Only now, seemingly overnight, prices have skyrocketed, in some cases to silly levels. This is because of a number of factors, including demand, but I think a bigger issue is that there has been manipulation. Staggered tranche releases by the chateaux. Blind fealty to the scores of one man resulting from several seconds of swirling and spitting in tastings involving hundreds of wines. A hijacking of the whole system by the super-rich in the U.S. and Asia. A world economic system that is resulting in accumulation of great wealth by the very few, to the impoverishment of the middle and lower classes. I'm guessing the wholesalers have been fine tuning their abilities to get their greedy share of the pie as well. New Hampshire had cases and cases of 2004 Lafite at $180 a bottle a few years back. Most of it was bought up by guys like Steve, Josh, and others, and sold for many times that amount to Asia and other places. The rest of us who just wanted to drink the stuff were out of luck. The system has been totally corrupted. It is not all the Bordelais' fault but they have their share in the blame. There are generally no laws against greed, of course. If all these people want to milk every penny out of these products, none of us can stop them. But for me, anyway, the love affair is over!

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Mon May 09, 2011 6:01 am

David,

You wrote:
"Alex, I agree with much of what you have written in this thread, but your first sentence above is naive and incorrect. Yes, consumers outside of Bdx are the largest factor in the monstrous increases in Bdx prices. Yes, Parker played some role in driving the demand, though I probably place a lot more responsibility on the consumer than the critic. But another MAJOR factor in the supply/demand equation (your second sentence above) is the amount of wine held back by the top producers in Bdx".

David, maybe I was being naive, but would you answer me this please: can you be at all specific about the wine supposedly being held back by producers? Seen from here, the accusation seems rather nebulous and unfounded, but maybe you know something I don't. What this reminds me of is statements like "the 2005s aren't selling well". When you dig a little deeper, you find the people saying such things are either parroting what they heard (not saying this about you, David!) or projecting their local reality to the whole planet. As regards the great growths, there are NO statistics, and the market is truly global. Only trade professionals, and few even there, have a good overview.
As for holding wine back, this is nothing new, but you or I or anybody would be very hard put to say to what, if any degree this is an important factor, or more prevalent today than before.

Jim,

Your last post sounds like a battle cry to change course, bridle the oligarchy, and give more power back to the people. I'm not surprised you ran for political office!
(by the way, you won't find me disagreeing with you on this!).

With regard to the "tranche" way of selling great growths, this has existed for decades, perhaps even centuries. Why fault it now? Surely this is not a deciding factor in the price rises. Getting in on the ground floor has always been cheaper. Perhaps you mean that the snowball effect for the 2nd or possibly 3rd tranches is much greater than it used to be. For a tiny handful of wines, you are certainly right. But, ask yourself, if Lafite released their entire crop in a given year all at once, would it make the end price any less to consumers? In my opinion, the only difference is that the slack would be taken up by intermediaries…

Also, Jim, please understand how many of your friends on BWE must feel - you state that you are “divorcing Bordeaux”. But where does this leave you as manager of Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts? Are you staying on for the children’s sake?

All the best,

Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon May 09, 2011 12:02 pm

Hey, I'm just a country lawyer from Maine, Alex, I'm no big financial expert. I just comment on what I see from my little corner of the world. I just represent indigent people all day long. As I've said here before in my sophomoric rants against the rich, I'm seeing levels of greed and levels of poverty, and economic and social harm to people, that I've never seen before in all of my years of practicing law. I think these exponential increases in the price of fine wine are yet another canary in the coal mine, yet another small indicator that there is something very, very wrong going on out there, that will result in some sort of world economic cataclysm at some point. The Arab Spring is another indicator, in a good way. The Tea Party and Sarah Palin etc. are additional indicators, in a bad way. There are just too many poor people in the world, something is going to give at some point. In the meantime, look at Bordeaux. Look at BWE: We have a lot of successful people right here on this site -- doctors, financial guys, lawyers, etc. -- and they can't even justify buying Branaire Ducru anymore, let alone Lynch or Pontet or Duhart. From your notes in this thread, I'm gathering that the Bordelais think that all is well in Bordeaux -- that the shutting out of the middle class from the markets of wines that they sold for as little as $25-30 just two or three years ago is nothing to worry about. I'm gathering from your notes that they are thinking the market for the wines of the region is healthy. If that's the case, then HWSRN is their man... is your man... because I think his 98-100s year after year are driving up the demand/frenzy of the Koch Brothers crowd.