CnDP tasting month: Vieux Telegraph La Crau 1998

[Comte Flaneur]

As a brief aside one of my epithanous wine experiences was with a young Vieux Telegraph in a London wine bar 20 years ago.

Fast forward to 2009 and I open this and I get a nice maroon colour and then I get a sweaty bouquet; sweaty jockstraps...wonderful (in a wine); cedar, talcum powder and then some beetroot notes, and the faintest hint of garrigue but by now the beetroot notes dominated. My initial euphoria gave way to a sense of uneasiness. Perhaps I should relax because now I got some sensational cured meat, beefy-beef bovril aromas. On the palate things started to go downhill. Although it was smooth, silky even, it tasted hot and porty...oh, oh...it was sweet...low acidity and too much alcohol...the finish burned the back of my throat...the dreaded "lingering afterburn" this wine has too much alcohol and too little acidity...it has poor balance and a lack of finesse. All my misgivings about CnDP (see previous thread) came flooding through with this wine. The aroma is still pleasant...by now I am getting tea and melted chocolate but this wine is a dud in my book. I hope my 98 Beaucastels and Clos Des Papes are better than this.

[JimHow]

Wow, what a roller coaster ride!
Well done, nonetheless, Comte, despite the mixed results.
I'll be opening a 2003 E. Guigal Cheateauneuf du Pape later this week as CdP Harry month continues on BWE!

[FrankD]

I'm sure glad my 1995 V T was an unambiguous success.

Sorry about your 1998.

F

[JimHow]

I bought another bottle of the '06 VT today, which I enjoyed so much last week. A bit pricey, though, at $65.

[Comte Flaneur]

With these southern rhones you either like 'em or you don't really care for them...

...but even if you love 'em...they are not exactly profound/sophisticated wines...I mean if you like this style there are better wines from Australia....so where's the QPR? So Jimbo $65 sounds a bit steep...?

I just bought a case of Langoa 04 at $30 a bottle all in...as per Richard's recco...I am sure this is going to be a much better wine than my VT 98, which probably now sells for three times as much

Some rhone prices - like Italians - are still very much a bubble.

[HarryKaris]

Thanks for the note. I can assure you that the bottle you describe is far form the wine I drank more than 2 cases of in including some magnums. This must be an off bottle or you have a pre-palate resistance against CdP's in general reading your comment's and comparisons!
My bottles showed far from hot and burnt. 1998 VT for me is a very traditional wine with plenty of earth, truffle and kirsch liqueur including a good acidity - far from Port style.
Comparing CdP in general with Aussi's is something I really do not understand and makes me think that you never tasted the great diversity of styles of wines CdP has to offer.

CdP-Harry

[DavidG]

Ian, I am going to side with Harry here, for the most part. While the '98 VT does have some sweet cassis and dark cherry notes, it's also got plenty of earth, leather, and peppery spiciness to round out a nicely developing complex flavor profile. There is still a good hit of tannin indicating it is still on the young side. Harry, you already drank through 2 cases?! I hope you have saved some as I think they are still on the upswing.

The last time I had this, about a year ago, it wasn't showing any excessive alcohol or heat that I could detect, and while a very big wine and not particularly acidic, I thought it well balanced. "Loud," perhaps, rather than understated, with the components further out on the edges of the balance triangle (perhaps this is the lack of finesse you lament), but balanced in an exciting way. I find the comparison to Australian wines of "this style" difficult to comprehend - I don't see any stylistic similarities. Unless you are lumping all big, concentrated wines or those that aren't overtly acidic into one style. Or if you've had a weird bottle I suppose the comparison might make some sort of sense.

I do agree that the '98 Beaucastel is even better, though that too is a big wine that is not so high on acid, and oddly enough in light of your criticisms, one of the "sweeter" Beaus, probably related to the greater Grenache/Mourvedre ratio than usual.

[ChrisW]

Comte,

I think that whether one likes Langoa 04 three times as much as a VT 98 depends very much on one's personal taste preferences. Luckily these preferences vary considerably from one person to another.

I agree that most wines from CdP are not easy-going, delicate wines. However, this is one of the reasons why I like them so much. I like wines from Bordeaux too, but my interest in wines would have long disappeared if there was nothing else than wines from Bordeaux. Wines from regions such as CdP, Spain and various Italian regions create an interesting diversity for me.

I do not really see your comparison between wines from Australia and CdP, other than that they are both often "big" wines. But so are Californian Cabs and I do not see the similarity between these wines and wines from CdP either. For me, the key difference is that most wines from CdP have no noticeable oak which creates a very different profile of the aromas and aftertaste.

I do agree with you that CdP is currently hyped and that prices are going up only to be probably heading for a fall, unless the region really becomes as populair as Bordeaux or Burgundy. Otherwise, there are just too many 90++ wines emerging which want to be sold for >25 euros, which remains a very difficult and relatively small market as can be seen by how difficult it is for wineries from Bordeaux, Spain and Australia to currently sell their wines for such prices.

ChrisW

[Comte Flaneur]

Thanks for all your comments...I wasn't making this stuff up, I stand by what I said and I had a similar experience with it over Christmas, where the others around the table enjoyed it more than I did. With this wine I got a hot sensation on the palate as well as the finish. I much prefer the older style VTs from the late 80s.

I do think the Aussie comparison is appropriate...many of the Barossa guys are taking on C9 with their GSM blends. The first of course was Charlie Melton with his "Nine Popes" - great wine it is/was too. You also have the likes of Grant Burge's Holy Trinity and a few others.

The best wine I drank last week was a Barossa shiraz from John Duval. He used to make Penfolds Grange for about twenty years. The wine is called entity and you can buy it for $30-40 . I would urge you all to try one. It takes Barossa shiraz to a new level and would eat VT 98 for breakfast. Different class.

http://www.johnduvalwines.com/thewines_ ... views.html

[DavidG]

Don't doubt your experience, Ian, just that mine has differed.

Ah, the GSM connection. If they are aiming for CdP, they aren't anywhere close yet IMO.

[JimHow]

My reading of Harry's notes is that he results are a mixed bag. A lot of the wines don't seem to have stood up to a half century of aging, with several examples of oxidation. Are nuttiness and caramelization considered appealing attributes?

How would you characterize your tasting overall, Harry? It seems clear that they don't have quite the ageworthiness of Bordeaux.... That's not necessarily a horrible thing, it just seems to be a fact of life. Then again, what wine region does have the ageworthiness of Bordeaux?

Ian, I loved the 2006 Vieux Telegraphe, although I agree it is overpriced at $65. It is good to have some diversity in the cellar though, they can't all be '96 Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages.

[ChrisW]

Ian,
No doubt that CdP will be copied more frequently now that the region is becoming more populair and prices are shooting up. However, the same happened long ago with Bordeaux and all the Bordeaux blends made all over the planet have not reduced the demand for the original product (at least not for the high-end wines). I think the same will happen for CdP.

Jim,
As far as ageing capabilities of CdP is concerned, I think it is important to remember that winemaking today in CdP is very, very, different from winemaking until ten years ago in CdP. In the past it was for example probably not uncommon for wines to be (sligthly) oxidized already before they were bottled as wines often stayed in casks/vats until they were sold (even if this meant several years extra in casks/vats). Current winemaking is much more serious and there are many more serious wines with ageing potential.

The few good wines that were made in good years such as 1989 and 1990 are ussually still great today. Whether wines from CdP age as well as wines from Bordeaux I don't know. For me personally, a more important question is whether I like them as much after a lot of bottle ageing as I do when they are less than 10 years old. I still do not know the answer to this question as I like them young and old. Which brings me to one of the things I like best about CdP: most wines are drinkable from the time when they are bottled and do not really go through an inaccessible closed phase (except for some wines such as Beaucastel which really needs some bottle ageing)

ChrisW

[DavidG]

Regarding ageability of Chateauneufs, I replied in Harry's thread as well -

Unlike Bordeaux, Chateauneuf is not commonly regarded as a live-forever wine. Ten to twenty years tops, with a few notable exceptions, is sort of the common wisdom, though Harry's thread shows that there have been some additional unexpected exceptions. As ChrisW notes, winemaking practices have changed siginificantly over the past decade, plus a number of houses are now bottling various luxury cuvees. These changes may have a significant impact on ageability of Chateauneufs, though I would be hard-pressed to guess what that may be.

[HarryKaris]

I will post my answers regarding the old wines in the other thread!
Ian, can you tell me what CdP's you think are more authentic and traditionally labeled CdP's '?

Harry

[Comte Flaneur]

Harry - I am less concerned with who is considered to be tradional or modern than the quality of the contents of the bottle...in Piedmont - a region I am more familiar with - the distinction is somewhat spurious in my opinion. Like Otto, I do struggle with Chateauneufs, but I will continue to persevere and experiment. But I do find them quite pricey. A friend of mine who also has had mixed experiences with C9s tried one called Clos Saint-Jean Deus Ex Machina the other day, whch he said was very good. I would like to try that one, but I think I will need to save up! Cheers Ian

[Comte Flaneur]

By the way the question came up elsewhere today about a Chateauneuf called Marcoux Vieilles Vignes, 1990

It just so happened that I had tried it after some glorious Chave Blancs at Kittle House in April last year

This was my note:

Men’s locker room-squash court-squash ball, then sandal wood; gamey; sweet entry; opulent but savoury. The table raved about this, and while this heady wine was indeed impressive, for me the grenache really stood out and it had a pronounced raison-ey/pruney note and a somewhat cooked/ hot alcoholic finish.

I thought at the time this was probably a $50-60 wine. Turns out this is a $600 bottle of wine. F**k me. I think some of these wines are a bubble.

[HarryKaris]

Interesting Ian, so you basically you liked the wine ....maybe you should have tasted this wine blind without knowing its price...
BTW, I had this wine - made from 100-year-old Grenache several times and it never tasted gamy ...myabe your bottle stayed too long in the men's squash locker...

Harry

[Comte Flaneur]

I only found out how much it cost today when someone enquired about it - in the "other place" Harry. I liked the wine very much - nose, palate - until the pruney/cooked notes and the finish, which I found too hot. But I must admit to being shocked when I found out how much it cost. Presumably it must be a 100 point wine then?

[JimHow]

I see the 2007 Vieux Telegraphe La Crau is available at $60 from Premier Cru on futures... five dollars less than what I paid for the 2006 in NH.

At that price it is still overpriced to me, even if from the vintage of the millenium. At that price I'll buy one bottle to have in my cellar.

[HarryKaris]

I see the 2007 Vieux Telegraphe La Crau is available at $60 from Premier Cru on futures... five dollars less than what I paid for the 2006 in NH.

At that price it is still overpriced to me, even if from the vintage of the millenium. At that price I'll buy one bottle to have in my cellar.

You think this wine is overpriced at $60.....Jim, this wine is twice as good as the 2006.....I think you calculate wrong!!

[JimHow]

Hmmm... that sounds like a "buy" recommendation....