When President Obama is re-elected!!

[manton]

Um, the media has worked very hard to cover for Obama on Bengazi. At least push it off until after the election. Which they have now done. One of the reasons the rest is going to come out is because enough in the media feel enough guilt/professional self-respect that their consciences won't allow them to extend the cover-up forever.

[Houndsong]

The media also worked very hard to produce those bogus polls showing Obama ahead. Those polls showing the democratic turnout that would equal or exceed that of 2008. Somebody assured me that would never, ever be the case. And that Florida would never, ever go for Obama this year.

There definitely is a yawning credibility gap somewhere. Hmm, where did I see that? It should be filled with a couple of chip shots before flinging another Hail Mary down the field.

Just saying.

[manton]

Look,there are lots of examples. CBS edited out embarassing parts of their interview with Obama that contradicted the later WH line. Candy Crowly shutting down Romney in the debate. But whatever.

[AlexR]

JScott,

Your continued misrepresentation of the facts regarding the Benghazi incident is most unfortunate. Please either prove that President Obama knew about the security problem and did nothing, or desist from spreading the rumor. The accusation you make is grave, and the reasoning behind it unsustained… and unsustainable.
Where was your sense of moral outrage when W. Bush started a war on false pretences? Four thousand five hundred US soldiers died in that fiasco. So did something like 32,000 Iraqis. Even if what you say is true about Benghazi (but you haven’t shared a shred of proof), how do you explain your indignation about the 4 people who died in Benghazi when compared with that?

Is it any surprise that the only people who whip this dead horse are Republicans? How do you explain that Mitt Romney was sternly put in his place about this by Obama and did not reply during the first debate, nor bring up the subject again during the subsequent foreign policy debate?
Listen, the reason Richard Nixon was forced to resign was because all the proof about the Watergate break in was pointing in his direction. That was a great day for American democracy. If your accusations about Obama held any water, he would indeed need to be taken to task for this. But that is not the case.

You are at home with an urban myth. That’s fine. But please do not put it up in a public forum and expect the myth to be believed.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[manton]

Never mind, this thread is a total waste of time.

Might I suggest that it be deleted? Seems like it's only a drag on an otherwise good forum.

[JimHow]

Good points on the 2016 ticket, HBL.
Of course, who knows what the situation will be 4 days from now, let alone 4 years.
I have stated in this thread that Jeb Bush would be a strong candidate.
He is a very intelligent person, likeable, fairly moderate, although I think his evangelicalism and pro life stances would hurt him in a national campaign. I'm actually a fan of Jeb Bush, just not as my president.

I think the Big Dog wants to get back to the White House. I think women will push Hillary to run.
I'm a Hillary fan. She'll be older, but 69 is the new 59.
She does look a little burnt out right now, although I think she has acquitted herself well at state.

I was a big Mario cuomo fan and was disappointed when he didn't show up on the tarmac in 1988.
As for his son, I know he's been getting high marks in NY, but I don't see him as presidential material.

Now Uncle Joe Biden is going to be too old in 2016, he'll be 73.
Tell you one thing, though: Despite all the social awkwardness, despite all the snickers and the jokes and the SNL skits, Joe Biden acquitted himself damn well in this campaign.
People mock his performance in the Veep debate but he came out swinging and I thought it was a jolt of energy for the Obama campaign at a time that they really, really needed it. He truly has been a Happy Warrior.

There will be an overwhelming amount of money and campaign infrastructure in place if Hillary wants to run in 2016, she would certainly be an early favorite in the Democratic primary.

But you are right, who knows who will emerge, who wont run, etc., etc.

[JimHow]

Alex, I don't think you should be calling people Archie Bunkers and telling people what they can and can't say here, it creates bad will. This thread has been positive for a whole year. Make your points but don't insult anybody personally. That goes for everyone. Thank you.

[tmas]

Tmas,

I think it is deeply insulting to blame Obama for something that was totally out of his control (I notice that Obama shut Romney up on this point during the debate, and rightly so). Do you think the president of the US should be like God, and expected to pull all the strings on every aspect of government? How ridiculous can you get? Calling Obama a liar - as if he's supposed to be on top of security at every goddam US diplomatic representation in the world! - reminds me of nothing so much as children in the playground.
How the right wingers can say they love their country, but hate their government and president is impossible to understand.

The US military has done heroic things. And terrible, morally reprehensible things. Ever heard of Abu Ghraib?
Should we ge grateful to the Republican politicians for the God-awful mess in Iraq and Afghanistan, unwinnable, horribly expensive wars in defiance of international law?
Do you know what it's was like to hear Dick Cheney, the Vice-President of the US, condoning torture?
American values, did I hear you say?

Your assimilating me with a hippie and telling me my words are bullshit do not speak well for your level of tolerance or politeness.
I'm pushing 60. I run my own small prosperous business. Who are you to presume who I am?

Your last post could have been written by Archie Bunker. Remember him?

Alex R.

Fascinating, I know some folks think Obama is near godlike but I didn't know that conferred upon him immunity from the consequences of his actions. Why is it "insulting" to hold someone responsible for the proper performance of their duties, especially when those duties involve the lives of others? Yes he's responsible for every US "diplomatic representation" , ESPECIALLY IN THIS CASE where there were cries for assistance well before and during the attack, and video, and drones. It was obviously horribly bungled and covered up. I seem to remember seeing Obama in the situation room during the Bin Laden extermination, but in this case we aren't told anything by him or the administration as to who knew what and when they knew it etc. JSOTT in his post above sums it up rather well.

Obama didn't "shut up Romney on this point during the debate". He misrepresented what he said in the rose garden, which is born out by the text of his remarks there and subsequent weeks of his declining to call the attack a terrorist attack. I wish Romney had pursued Benghazi vigorously during the campaign, but in that debate it was Candy Crowley who inappropriately affected that exchange while in the process proving that she has no journalistic integrity.

Gee AlexR, I apologize, apparently I wasn't paying attention to all the love of country, government and president that was lavished by left wingers when Republicans were in power.

The military isn't perfect, not too many human institutions are, but it is necessary.

Without enhanced interrogation under the Bush Administration the information that led to Bin Laden's extermination would never have been obtained. Wow, I just realized that Obama failed to mention that! I don't see any conflict with American values when it comes to using enhanced interrogation on enemies such as terrorists who deliberately slaughter innocent men, women, and children and have the stated aim of destroying and subjugating those with different religious beliefs and/or cultures.

I have not "presumed" who you are (3: to suppose to be true without proof) I have, rather, expressed my opinion and feelings as to some of your statements, much as you have done regarding my mine.

As far as the Archie Bunker reference, I suppose I could get my BVDs all in a bunch and go on about you "presuming" that I am like Archie Bunker, but you're probably just expressing your opinion and feelings about my statements, right? I am sure you aren't "presuming" that I in fact I embody all of the attributes of the character. In case I am wrong, allow me to clarify, If you mean that Archie Bunker believed in a strong America, a strong American defense, and not cowing down to non Americans about our rights and freedoms, which I feel he may have, on those points I am with him. If on the other hand you mean to say that I am somewhat ignorant and share the character's more odious opinions, which I feel confident you are not as that would be rather intolerant and impolite, I can assure you that that is not so.

Finally, I am over 60 and run an American business which has suffered under Obama's presidency and will likely suffer even more in the next 4 years.

[stefan]

@tmas: how has your business suffered because of Obama's actions as president?

[JimHow]

A belated note of good work in Colorado and Nevada, Hound, Blanquito, and Glenn. As the evening moved to the western states it was comforting (for Democrats like me) to see those states holding for the president.

A classic example of why the Republicans have a Latino problem.
The GOP really needs to appeal to women and Latinos or I just don't see how they will ever compete.

[tmas]

@tmas: how has your business suffered because of Obama's actions as president?

When the economy is good people do more of nearly everything, so I would say that economic malaise is the main reason. It has always amazed me how people ridicule the concept of "trickle down". I've had my own business for 30+ years and I certainly know it's true. My goodness, If people aren't making money they don't buy things and so everyone who sells things suffers. If people aren't making money they don't go out to eat and so restaurants and food suppliers and waiters & waitresses and parking garages and wine salespeople and linen suppliers and, and, and, and. I could go on for ever. Also, of course businesses don't make capital improvements and hire etc. etc. With the increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring I don't have much hope for significant improvement.

Let's face it, the economy is driven by folks making a decent living through gainful full time employment, not through being on unemployment.

[stefan]

Oh, so it is the bad economy that hurts your business rather than specific anti-business actions taken by this administration (which, it seems to me, is rather pro business; at least more so than the Bush II administration). You are of course projecting the "increased taxes, regulation, and impact of Obama care on hiring".

[JimHow]

Watch for Deval Patrick in 2016, HBL.

[stefan]

>>
The GOP really needs to appeal to women and Latinos or I just don't see how they will ever compete.
>>

Barry Goldwater, the leader of the conservative Republicans in the 1960s, has been rolling around in his grave over the selling out of the movement to the social neanderthals. The Republican party should return to its traditional conservative views if it wants to avoid withering away.

[Houndsong]

Hey Jim, since we are on to 2016 already, a friend of mine had a pretty interesting idea. The dems should just pay party adherents to resettle away from comfortably blue states into marginally red ones. It would be a lot cheaper and more efficient than traditional campaign spending. The republicans have no shortage of money and could do the same but being in the minority now it would be less effective. But yeah, it probably would be a better dollar spent then on robocalling.

[JimHow]

Amen, Stefan. Barry Goldwater was a good man.
The Republicans have been hijacked by nut cakes.

[JScott]

I'm going to suggest that we move on from the Benghazi issue. We all seem to feel we have a firm grasp on the facts (though they are interestingly not remotely consistent) and therefore no minds are likely to be changed, only tempers flared. There may be hearings. We shall see....

[JimHow]

Hound: I say the Democrats go after Texas, Georgia and Arizona in 2016.
One of the good things about the David Plouffe campaigns has been that they have been willing to think outside the box.
Hopefully the Democrats can keep up that philosophy in 2016!

[tmas]

Oh, so it is the bad economy that hurts your business rather than specific anti-business actions taken by this administration (which, it seems to me, is rather pro business; at least more so than the Bush II administration). You are of course projecting the "increased taxes, regulation, and impact of Obama care on hiring".

While it may seem that way to you, it is the way I said for me. I don't know what you do for a living, but I can tell you that it's very tough out there for the small business person, and the last four years have been a killer. Many businesses have closed up here in the NY Metro area. I know of numerous such instances personally. My exact words were "economic malaise", "increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring"

Anyway, you asked and I responded. I really don't care to engage you in a lengthy debate about the pros and cons of Obama's impact on business and the economy. You have your beliefs. I have my experiences. Your guy won, time will tell.

[robertgoulet]

Weed is becoming legal..thats all I have to say...

[tmas]

Weed is becoming legal..thats all I have to say...

The interesting thing to me is do they have a "breathalyzer" type of test for marijuana? The thought of folks being able to pull into the rest stop and pick up a pack of J. Garcias for the road is rather frightening! I wonder if we'll see the birth of "Mother's against Stoned Driving".

[RDD]

Oh, so it is the bad economy that hurts your business rather than specific anti-business actions taken by this administration (which, it seems to me, is rather pro business; at least more so than the Bush II administration). You are of course projecting the "increased taxes, regulation, and impact of Obama care on hiring".

While it may seem that way to you, it is the way I said for me. I don't know what you do for a living, but I can tell you that it's very tough out there for the small business person, and the last four years have been a killer. Many businesses have closed up here in the NY Metro area. I know of numerous such instances personally. My exact words were "economic malaise", "increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring"

Anyway, you asked and I responded. I really don't care to engage you in a lengthy debate about the pros and cons of Obama's impact on business and the economy. You have your beliefs. I have my experiences. Your guy won, time will tell.

It's tough all over. I fight for my job every day. A good deal of my associates have been "retired" and offshore resources used in their place. That trend has been going on for a long time.
The entire textile industry in the South is just gone.
Here's food for thought. If you're one in a million there are one thousand people just like you in China. And we'll all be competing for natural resources and standard of living soon.

[JimHow]

I used to be in elective politics.
People used to say: We need to cut regulations!
And then when you'd try to get specifics, the argument sort of fell apart.
Specifically, what Obama imposed "regulations" have hurt business?
Hey I'm a fiscal conservative too, tmas, but I think it's pretty hard to blame Obama for the economy.
He inherited a catastrophe and we've been slowly digging out.
China, computers, loss of manufacturing base, the Walmartization of society, disappearance of the middle class, and all of these structural problems that have been coming in for the last 50 years... These are much more to blame than anything Barack Obama has done.

[tmas]

I used to be in elective politics.
People used to say: We need to cut regulations!
And then when you'd try to get specifics, the argument sort of fell apart.
Specifically, what Obama imposed "regulations" have hurt business?
Hey I'm a fiscal conservative too, tmas, but I think it's pretty hard to blame Obama for the economy.
He inherited a catastrophe and we've been slowly digging out.
China, computers, loss of manufacturing base, the Walmartization of society, disappearance of the middle class, and all of these structural problems that have been coming in for the last 50 years... These are much more to blame than anything Barack Obama has done.

JimHow, I'm jealous, incredulous, and happy for you. You seem so thoroughly satisfied with Obama. Haven't felt that way about an election in a long time.

[tmas]

Oh, so it is the bad economy that hurts your business rather than specific anti-business actions taken by this administration (which, it seems to me, is rather pro business; at least more so than the Bush II administration). You are of course projecting the "increased taxes, regulation, and impact of Obama care on hiring".

While it may seem that way to you, it is the way I said for me. I don't know what you do for a living, but I can tell you that it's very tough out there for the small business person, and the last four years have been a killer. Many businesses have closed up here in the NY Metro area. I know of numerous such instances personally. My exact words were "economic malaise", "increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring"

Anyway, you asked and I responded. I really don't care to engage you in a lengthy debate about the pros and cons of Obama's impact on business and the economy. You have your beliefs. I have my experiences. Your guy won, time will tell.

It's tough all over. I fight for my job every day. A good deal of my associates have been "retired" and offshore resources used in their place. That trend has been going on for a long time.
The entire textile industry in the South is just gone.
Here's food for thought. If you're one in a million there are one thousand people just like you in China. And we'll all be competing for natural resources and standard of living soon.

Perhaps you think I sit around whining? Too busy for that. It is what it is. I just work harder for less.

[RDD]

[/quote]

While it may seem that way to you, it is the way I said for me. I don't know what you do for a living, but I can tell you that it's very tough out there for the small business person, and the last four years have been a killer. Many businesses have closed up here in the NY Metro area. I know of numerous such instances personally. My exact words were "economic malaise", "increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring"

Anyway, you asked and I responded. I really don't care to engage you in a lengthy debate about the pros and cons of Obama's impact on business and the economy. You have your beliefs. I have my experiences. Your guy won, time will tell.[/quote]
It's tough all over. I fight for my job every day. A good deal of my associates have been "retired" and offshore resources used in their place. That trend has been going on for a long time.
The entire textile industry in the South is just gone.
Here's food for thought. If you're one in a million there are one thousand people just like you in China. And we'll all be competing for natural resources and standard of living soon.[/quote]

Perhaps you think I sit around whining? Too busy for that. It is what it is. I just work harder for less.[/quote]


I wasn't thinking anything of the kind. Why would I?
I'm just saying it is rough. Period.
And I've been in a lot of rough spots and like you had to work hard.
I actually admire those that work hard for less.

[JimHow]

I've been working very hard since I was 15.
Grew up in a textile mill family.
Worked three jobs while going to law school full time.
Haven't missed a day of work in 39 years.
And I support Obama!

[tmas]

While it may seem that way to you, it is the way I said for me. I don't know what you do for a living, but I can tell you that it's very tough out there for the small business person, and the last four years have been a killer. Many businesses have closed up here in the NY Metro area. I know of numerous such instances personally. My exact words were "economic malaise", "increased taxes, more burdensome regulation, and the impact of Obama Care on hiring"

Anyway, you asked and I responded. I really don't care to engage you in a lengthy debate about the pros and cons of Obama's impact on business and the economy. You have your beliefs. I have my experiences. Your guy won, time will tell.[/quote]
It's tough all over. I fight for my job every day. A good deal of my associates have been "retired" and offshore resources used in their place. That trend has been going on for a long time.
The entire textile industry in the South is just gone.
Here's food for thought. If you're one in a million there are one thousand people just like you in China. And we'll all be competing for natural resources and standard of living soon.[/quote]

Perhaps you think I sit around whining? Too busy for that. It is what it is. I just work harder for less.[/quote]




I wasn't thinking anything of the kind. Why would I?
I'm just saying it is rough. Period.
And I've been in a lot of rough spots and like you had to work hard.
I actually admire those that work hard for less.[/quote]


Misunderstood you then RDD. Guess my age is showing. Back in the day, the expression "It's tough all over" was sort of a throwaway expression which basically meant "tough crap buddy".

[RDD]

Yea I understand.
No offense taken.
I'm more concerned with the pot shot on the drone.
Iran (and our response) could make all of this stuff seem petty.

[tmas]

Yea I understand.
No offense taken.
I'm more concerned with the pot shot on the drone.
Iran (and our response) could make all of this stuff seem petty.

Hmmm, didn't hear about that. Have to check it out.

[JimHow]

Yes the Iranians just shot at us.

[tmas]

Yes the Iranians just shot at us.

Actually, it apparently happened on November 1st. Odd that we're just hearing about it now.

[RDD]

Yes the Iranians just shot at us.

Actually, it apparently happened on November 1st. Odd that we're just hearing about it now.

Yep odd.
Why even mention it at all now.
One theory I heard was it was a public warning to Iran.

[JimHow]

It must be a conspiracy tmas.

[tmas]

It must be a conspiracy tmas.

Lord you liberals are a suspicious lot!

[Tom In DC]

Weed is becoming legal..thats all I have to say...

The interesting thing to me is do they have a "breathalyzer" type of test for marijuana? The thought of folks being able to pull into the rest stop and pick up a pack of J. Garcias for the road is rather frightening! I wonder if we'll see the birth of "Mother's against Stoned Driving".

Should you be so "lucky" as to be stuck in traffic at evening rush hour in Denver, you can already get the better part of a contact high. Once the new law goes into effect, I guess "The sky's the limit" on the altitude in CO.

[Tom In DC]

Specifically, what Obama imposed "regulations" have hurt business?

I run with a lot of small business owners and C-level folks at big-to-huge businesses, and almost all have curtailed hiring until the Affordable Healthcare Act shakes itself out.

Businesses are sitting on tons of cash but think M&A is a much better place to invest than more personnel for their core businesses. 8% unemployment is the new 6%.

[AlexR]

Those of you who wanted Romney to win, could you please explain why more of your ire is not aimed at Wall Street?

The economic crisis started as a financial crisis (before Obama took office, but that's kind of beside the point) with Wall Street banks overextending themselves and taking unconscionable risks with money they didn't have.
This dysfunction of Wall Street had a (very negative) knock-on effect all over the world. That seems proof to me that this is not just about a "tax and spend culture" specific to the US Democratic party, but a bad stumble by those who think it is endlessly profitable to shift money around irresponsibly rather than produce anything.

The US government bailed out the banks, but did it bail out the people? All those people who were laid off, lost their houses and, what's more, lost their faith in the American dream...

Debt:
Here's what Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CBO_- ... nt_GDP.png
What we see is that the historic peak was reached before Obama took office.
It has gone down since but, of course, not nearly enough.

So, there's been a lot of bellyaching on this thread, myself included of course, but what do you suggest to do to improve things?
IMHO, reducing the budget to reduce the debt seems like a good idea, but increasing the defense budget a very bad one.

One last point: please let's not confuse cause and effect. Tmas's small business is suffering and he says it's due to the poor economic situation.
But the government does not control the economy. Therefore expecting the government to fix it is illogical.
Is "laissez faire" the answer? The least government is the best government? Slashing (corporate...) taxes a panacea?
The margin for manoeuvre is pretty slim here because in an advanced society there are fixed expenses for things like health, education, infrastructures, etc.

Best regards,
Alex R.







Best regards,
Alex R.

[AlexR]

Tmas,

You really do have the wrong end of the stick regarding the Benghazi incident!
No, I do not “think Obama is near godlike”, therefore I do NOT expect him to be intimately acquainted with the functioning of each and every embassy and consulate around the world!!!
Until you can show that the President was aware of the lack of security in this city no one had ever heard of before, and did not act accordingly, your comments can only be considered to be in bad faith, and not based on facts. You wrote that “Obama didn't shut up Romney on this point during the debate”, but you have me wondering if we watched the same debate!

We definitely part company when you write “I don't see any conflict with American values when it comes to using enhanced interrogation on enemies such as terrorists who deliberately slaughter innocent men, women, and children and have the stated aim of destroying and subjugating those with different religious beliefs and/or cultures”.
Torture is torture. Calling it “enhanced interrogation” is like saying the prisoners in Guantanamo are “detainees” or to speak of “protective reaction strikes” - in other words an unacceptable euphemism. I cannot abide by people advocating this, much less a Vice President. It is well and truly barbaric and shameful.

Archie Bunker: Jim chastised me for this, and if I went past any boundaries, I do apologize.

All the best,
Alex R.

[JonoB]

Yes the Iranians just shot at us.

Actually, it apparently happened on November 1st. Odd that we're just hearing about it now.

Its called censorship and it happens the world over.
Not censorship in the China (crack the whip and block it) way, but in a subtle way...
...persuading the media to not report it unless through obscure avenues that only students of Politics or people who spend their days on the internet could find.
Or until they can bend the facts a bit to suit their own views/cover up incriminating facts.

Watching various Asian news channels about the Senkaku Islands is an enlightening way of seeing this first hand and in real time.

P.S. I'm not an apologist, it is just that I have studied and continue to study these things. It makes me depressingly apothetic about Politics on anything other than a very very local scale, and why I find quiet pleasure in the ban on political discussion on the UK board. I often find that any theoretical mention or explanation of anything vaguely political gets people shouting at me without actually listening to what I have to say! In fact reading this thread reminds me of when during the London Rioting/Looting last summer A friend said "how can our city be reduced to such anarchy", to which I replied "we live in anarchy all the time" and then recited to her Hedley Bull and Foucault (Bio-Politics), I was swiftly dismissed with "Where are the police, etc, etc?", "Bring the army in!". My reasoning was not debated at all... It probably doesn't help that she hadn't read any Hedley Bull.