Poll: HWSRN: Has he been good or has he been bad for Bdx?

[JimHow]

Good point, CV, it is indeed sort of two different questions.

[OrlandoRobert]

Maybe look for producers that use less oak and that come from a region that has a cooler microclimate -- St Estephe or the northern Medoc!.

This is great advice, and something I've been doing for a few years.

[JimHow]

I love Graves and Margaux wines basically as much as I love St. Estephe, Pauillac and St. Julien. If this is the new Pessac, it is not for me.

[JimHow]

I mean, I'll drink it, grudgingly, because I can't afford to drink the good stuff anymore.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I'm ready to call this: Robert Parker won 49 states and the District of Columbia. But he failed to carry Maine, which is 51 percent of the vinelectoral college. Thus, Decision 2013: Parker has been a negative influence.

[OrlandoRobert]

I think Jim makes some sound points about Pessac that has made me wonder. For most left bank appellations, I have found some substitutes for those wines that I can no longer afford to buy more of. I scratch my head with Pessac/Graves. What are the substitutes, the babies of, Haut Brion and La Mish?

[JonoB]

I love Haut-Bailly but (this isn't in a bad way) the style has changed.
It has gone from classic Pessac- 1983 is magical to being something more akin to VCC or Red burgundy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but Pessac it is no longer!

I suppose some things like Domaine de Chevalier and Pape-Clement can still hold the flag, perhaps SHL, but I'm struggling to find anything that speaks to me in the same way. However, these aren't exactly value picks. An 01 Haut-Begrey 2nd wine was loveable but nothing to write home about last summer.

[JimHow]

Yes Haut Bailly is a tremendous estate but it costs like $180 now.
I have 6 bottles of the 2006 and a mag of the 2004 and am holding them for dear life.
The 2002 haut Bailly that Hound brought to my house a couple years ago was sublime.
Now THAT was Bordeaux!

Well done on the election call, Art "Mayor Daley" Houndsong. Very well done indeed.

[Comte Flaneur]

I must say I am really enjoying this thread, best one for a long time.

Like the good old days.

However, expanding on my earlier enthusiasm for Parker, I began to have my misgivings around the turn of the millennium.

And when he said of Cheval Blanc 2000, tasted from barrel in 2001: "It's a no-brainer, it's wine of the vintage and a wine to kill for" I realised then that he was unambiguously a negative influence and a menace to folk like us.

And then when I tasted Pape Clement 1995 and 2001 side by side I got really angry. What is this man doing to our beloved Bordeaux? His influence was being exploited by cynical and unscrupulous people like Gerard Perse, Bernard Magrez, and Gerard Depardieu, now a communist.

One wine was a beautiful expression of Graves terroir, the other was a spoofulated monster.

[Chateau Vin]

I'm ready to call this: Robert Parker won 49 states and the District of Columbia. But he failed to carry Maine, which is 51 percent of the vinelectoral college. Thus, Decision 2013: Parker has been a negative influence.

Which one are you calling in favor of BD Hound? Whether Parker is overall Pos/Neg or Bordeaux wine lovers are better off/not better off?

If it's the former, I would like to contest and want a recount. Just like FL's Butterfly ballot, I don't trust Maine's Lobster Ballot. It is confusing and would like a recount by hand. I am also contemplating to file a Supreme Court motion to resolve the hanging chad issues of the Lobster ballot...

[JimHow]

Ah yes, the BWE tradition of controversial elections continues.

[stefan]

While the "big guys" in Bdx have gotten too expensive for me, there are many reasonable buys at lower levels. I paid $25 for '10 Haut Bergey, $30 for '09 La Gomerie, $50 for '11 Pichon Lalande, $45 for '10 Gruaud Larose, $50 for '10 Gazin, $45 for '10 Talbot, $10, $25 (sic) for '10 Sociando Mallet,... I can live without Lafite even if I love it dearly and Lucie can pass on Haut Brion.

[Jeff Leve]

Château 1982 edition of the Féret 1982 edition of the Féret

Ducru Beaucaillou 20,000 C/12 19,000 C/12

Eat your hat, Mr. Leve!
You mustn’t believe everything you hear, and should keep a critical mind when you are being spoiled by the Bordelais in Parker’s wake!

Alex... It's bad enough that you are so pompus, On that, I do not care. That is who you have always been. No problem there. The problem is, you are wrong. While you are busy looking up facts and figures from 30 year old , out of date books as source, I just asked a few owners. I suppose you could know more than they do about they do with their own property, but I doubt it.

This is from Bruno Borie, the owner of Ducru Beaucaillou. when asked about the production of the Grand Vin over the years:

In the 80s probably 20 000 to 25 000
In the 90s : 15 000 to 20 000
Since 2003 : 9 to 11 000 (and much less in 2011 & 2012)
In other words we nowdays produce 50% less grand vin !

I can ask a few others as well if you like, but the truth is, every important estate makes much less of their Grand Vin today than before Parker. This is a fact.

I have production facts on most of the top estates on my website. You can peruse to find out more current, up to date production statistics.

http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/win ... s-answers/

[Jay Winton]

Ah yes, the old days ARE back-Jeff and Alex going head to head. As for RP, I bought a couple bottles of the Breca grenache which he gave 94 points-a high score. I'm not a points guy-too subjective 89 vs 90 etc. but this wine was only ok not a point away from outstanding. There are many CDRs and CDRVs which are much better example of grenache at this price point or less. I realize this is not a Bordeaux wine-end of thread drift.

[Bacchus]

Modern Pessac may be gone for the lovers of old style Bdx. I remember reading somewhere -- wish I could remember where -- that Pessac had moved more towards the right bank in wine making technique than any other left bank region. As far as Haut Bailly goes, does anyone own the 08s? HB is supposed to be one of the high points of that vintage, and the price is way better than 09 and 10. 08 might represent an affordable (last) chance for HB lovers. I have a box of 05s, and I'm hoarding them.

[pomilion]

Yes Haut Bailly is a tremendous estate but it costs like $180 now.

Whatever one thinks of the increasing homogeneity/Parkerization argument, I think it's indisputable that Bob has been the prime mover in the horrific escalation in Bordeaux prices over the past 15 years. Yes, as Jeff will argue, it's a free market and in some theoretical sense if you believe in capitalism shouldn't producers be able to charge whatever the market will bear, but it's crystal clear that the ratings "arms race" among critics, foremost among them Parker, has been largely responsible for the stupendous price increases. Jeff and others would argue, with some validity, look at the positive effect Parker has had on affordable wines -- there's a lot less thin, watery, astringent bordeaux these days because of Parker's and other critics' encouragement of various growing and vinification techniques and practices. Putting aside the Parkerization issue (which is hard), I agree with this -- I've had a quite a few $15-30 bottles in the past few years that were very nice everyday drinkers, much more so than even 6-8 years ago. Many of them are in a fairly modern style, but I don't really get too worked up about style at that price point.

My big beef with Parker is that he was the one and only contemporary wine critic with the power and respect to put the brakes on the insane grade inflation arms race among critics. Instead, since 2000 he's been proclaiming every other vintage the vintage of the century, handing out 98-100 point scores like candy (19 “perfect” 100-pt wines in 2009 alone -- really?!), and constantly using descriptors for wines he rates 95+ points such as "mythic," "profound," "mind-boggling," "best from this estate since 1947" and on and on. He not only willingly joined the arms race, he's led it. The Wine Spectator, Suckling etc. have had no choice but to go along. Every critic wants to be quoted, wants to be the name on shelf-talkers. You’re irrelevant as a wine critic these days if you’re not handing out ridiculous scores. (Gilman has gone to the opposite extreme, trying to position himself as the anti-Parker and handing out ridiculously exaggerated low marks for wines he doesn’t like, but he’s unknown to the general public and has no market effect.)

The result has been an out-of-control price spiral. Because I only got into bordeaux ten years ago, I've never been a first growth (or right bank equivalent) purchaser. 10-12 years ago almost everything else was under $100 (or not much more). Now, the list of non-first growths that are financially out of reach for most consumers is long and getting longer every year -- PLL, Pichon Baron, Lynch Bages, Palmer, Montrose, Cos, Pape Clement, Angelus, Pavie, Pontet Canet, Haut Bailly, Smith Haut Lafitte, etc. etc. are no longer affordable to most folks as even special occasion wines. I suppose there is something fun and challenging about hunting for the next great under-$100 wine, but it's getting harder and it's incredibly sad that many of our favorite wines are now out of reach or headed that way. Parker is more responsible than anyone else for this, and he had a choice. He was the one critic with the respect and power to put the brakes on grade inflation, over-the-top tasting notes and vintages of the century. He chose to lead the arms race rather than be a consumer advocate. He has become the Anti-Wine Consumer Advocate.

[Jeff Leve]

Whatever one thinks of the increasing homogeneity/Parkerization argument, I think it's indisputable that Bob has been the prime mover in the horrific escalation in Bordeaux prices over the past 15 years. Yes, as Jeff will argue, it's a free market and in some theoretical sense if you believe in capitalism shouldn't producers be able to charge whatever the market will bear, but it's crystal clear that the ratings "arms race" among critics, foremost among them Parker, has been largely responsible for the stupendous price increases. Jeff and others would argue, with some validity, look at the positive effect Parker has had on affordable wines -- there's a lot less thin, watery, astringent Bordeaux these days because of Parker's and other critics' encouragement of various growing and vinification techniques.

Those are all fair points. But it does not paint a full picture. Prior to Parker, the amount of countries that purchased Bordeaux and the amount of people buying Bordeaux were much smaller in size. Today, Bordeaux exports to many more countries and consumers all over the world want to drink it. Demand was going to increase with or without Parker.

Bob, if you like his palate offers his view on wines he tastes. His effect on the market is there, of course. But even that has changed. Years ago, perhaps any wine hitting 90 Pts would go up in price after his notes were published. That moved to 94-95 Pts and today, for most wines to get a bump, they need to hit 98, 99 or 100 Pts. And in a year like 2009, with so many 100 Pt wines, his high scores kept prices down. There are so many high quality wines to buy, the market is overwhelmed with quality!

He was the one critic with the respect and power to put the brakes on grade inflation, over-the-top tasting notes and vintages of the century. He chose to lead the arms race rather than be a consumer advocate. He has become the Anti-Wine Consumer Advocate.

I know some people feel that way. But that is what his subscribers pay him for. I subscribe and even though now, I taste and feel 99% sure of what I like, his palate and experience get me to subscribe. As a subscriber I pay for his unedited views. I do not want him holding back. If he loves it, I want to know how much. Generally speaking, wines are not making jumps as futures. It is only after the wine has been bottled that they move in price. So, the only consumers missing out are the ones not willing to buy early. I get while they might be pissed. But most wines are not going to be around for people to taste any more anyway. The wines that are available to taste are not the wines going up in price.

Bottom line, more people are chasing less wine. And if you think it's bad today, my guess is, other countries will sooner or later demand Bordeaux, spreading the supply even further out.

[Jeff Leve]

As far as Haut Bailly goes, does anyone own the 08s? HB is supposed to be one of the high points of that vintage, and the price is way better than 09 and 10. 08 might represent an affordable (last) chance for HB lovers. I have a box of 05s, and I'm hoarding them.

I bought 08 Haut Bailly. I really like the wine. Pre 2005 vintages, not as much. Current vintages, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 are all stunning! These are as good as Bordeaux gets. I'm not much into modern Vs. traditional styles of wine, but there are more producers making the best wines in their history in Pessac Leognan. At the low end, Le Thil and Clos Marsellate, in the middle, Martillac Lagraviere, Domaine de Chevalier, moving up, Smith Haut Lafitte is stunning! So is Haut Bailly. True, the wines are more expensive, but at least to me, the wines are also much better today. For some tips on the hot estates of Pessac Leognan : http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bor ... es-pessac/

[Chateau Vin]

In addition to what Jeff said, it is a feeding frenzy since nowadays more people are buying Bordeaux as an investment when compared to decades ago...It's like housing boom in the recent past. People are buying as an investment because the prices are going up and the prices are going up because people are buying. Not to that extent, but nonetheless investment attitude is also a contributing factor, if not how much...

[AlexR]

My dear Jeff, as for pomposity, you are like a stuck record on the politically correct Parkerized wines that cost a fortune. You evidently have enough money to bathe in the stuff. Pity that someone more deserving can’t benefit instead.
As for the figures, you are wrong and should be man enough to admit it. I’ve quoted the Féret. If you don’t believe me, I can photocopy and scan the pages.
Such sweeping statements as this show how dogmatic and off-base you can be: “every important estate makes much less of their Grand Vin today than before Parker. This is a fact.”
Bullshit.

My statistics date from 2004. The evolution is clear. Live with it, Leve.

Alex R.

[Tom In DC]

Feret's 50,000 cases for Lafite seems about right only if you include 30,000 cases of Carruades.

[Jeff Leve]

As for the figures, you are wrong and should be man enough to admit it. I’ve quoted the Féret.

You quoted a book and I quoted the owner. When you say I am wrong, you mean the owner of the chateau is wrong! Give that some thought and get back to me, or not...

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I'm ready to call this: Robert Parker won 49 states and the District of Columbia. But he failed to carry Maine, which is 51 percent of the vinelectoral college. Thus, Decision 2013: Parker has been a negative influence.

Which one are you calling in favor of BD Hound? Whether Parker is overall Pos/Neg or Bordeaux wine lovers are better off/not better off?

If it's the former, I would like to contest and want a recount. Just like FL's Butterfly ballot, I don't trust Maine's Lobster Ballot. It is confusing and would like a recount by hand. I am also contemplating to file a Supreme Court motion to resolve the hanging chad issues of the Lobster ballot...

Whatever you'd like to contest, it is your right under the BWE Constitution!

First though, you have to exhaust your administrative remedies by filing a grievance with the BD. He handles those. Then, if you are not satisfied with his decision, you may petition the Supreme Enological Court for review. Address it to the BD. He will review his disposition of your grievance and get back to you with a final judgment.

[JimHow]

Attorney Houndsong advises you well, CV.

He left out the "kind and benevolent" part, but the administrative/dictatorial appeal process is outlined accurately.

[Jay Winton]

Offerings to the BD usually work wonders-an 89 Lynch Bages just about guarantees your request.

[JimHow]

Indeed. Attorney Winton refers to the little known 1989 Lynch Bages exception to the Benevolent Dictator rule.

[OrlandoRobert]

WTF, I joined a Board propagated by yet more lawyers! What has Uncle Bob done to this hobby!?!

So what is this '89 LB exception? And yes, an amazing wine.

[Chateau Vin]

Indeed. Attorney Winton refers to the little known 1989 Lynch Bages exception to the Benevolent Dictator rule.

I can't afford 89 Lynch...Where is Rudy when I need him the most?

[AlexR]

Jeff,

You wrote,

"You quoted a book and I quoted the owner"

Who in blue blazes do you think supplies the information to Féret?

Féret do not write any of the château descriptions themseleves. Photos, engravings, text, and production figures are all provided by the château owners!

The Féret was last published in 2004. All 2,335 pages.

Hugs and kisses,
Alex R.

[JonoB]

Yes, as Jeff will argue, it's a free market and in some theoretical sense if you believe in capitalism shouldn't producers be able to charge whatever the market will bear, ...-- there's a lot less thin, watery, astringent bordeaux these days because of Parker's and other critics' encouragement of various growing and vinification techniques and practices.

Ah, the free market... The free market for fine wine is bolstered by hyperbole and BS. The hype creates a buzz and people pay checks that bounce despite the price. Having had to cancel orders on a number of occassions for this, and the fact that there is plenty of 09 and 10 coming out of "la place", it is pretty obvious that the only prices that the market can bear, are those that were released before the PArker scores in April 2009. The hype around the world... well I've stated my position on China. My parents both live there and deal with people close to power and money as they sell stuff to them... What is happening is that the middle class is growing, but life is cheaper than here for many, even they can only buy what we do. In the middle east, why does everyone have two super-cars? Well because there is nothing to spend your money on out in the dessert so you save and pretty quickly can own 6 lamborghinis. Take into account that wine (especially at the level we are discussing) is not at all free, because if you control supply, you control the market, and every bottle you drink reduces it. The supply curve is static, the demand curve is not a demand for wine but a relatively static curve for cuvees, and the price does not correlate to where the two meet. It is a movement along the demand curves. The Chateau could make stupendous amounts of money by selling their entire production at $35 a bottle, but somewhere along the line, everyone got greedy. Does the demand curve shift? Well just a little bit (in our minds) as we assume that everyone in the world is going to drink LAfite tomorrow! Well, here's a shocker... not everyone in the UK and the US drinks wine, and not everyone who drinks wine cares what is in the bottle... given the amount of wine that Bordeaux produces, there is enough to go around if only the Chateau would "make the market free and fair" rather than drip-feeding allocations to create added frenzy after they get 110 points. That rant is now over, so here's my lament.

Those thin and weedy wines... you know what, I lament their passing. No longer will a see an 81 Chasse-Spleen that speaks to me in its old age, no longer will I be mesmerised by a lowly 78 Chateau Cissac that you expect nothing of, or an 83 Cru Bourgeois picked up for a song. Isn't it amazing how we bandy around all this rubbish about 47 and 45 and greatness, but I bet you those wines would taste thin and weedy compared to today's wines... I reckon they probably tasted a bit 07 in their youth when tasted in April 48 and 46 respectively. Those thin and weedy red burgs age stupendously well, and by golly-gosh, the thinnest and weediest of them all (Champagne) are some of the most long-lived wines known to man, by george I've had 60s Chablis from terrible vintages that have been beautiful. Give me thin and weedy anyday of the week, and let me age them for their requisite times as I see fit. If I want big and bold, I can go to buy some Penfold's Grange, or some Southern Spanish reds... they do that sort of thing much better and I know their ageing curves. If 90 Troplong-Mondot is anything to go by, I really don't trust "the new emperor's clothes". P.S. I like fruit and flavour, I just want something else to be there as well.

[AlexR]

Hi Jono,

I really liked you ode to the "thin and weedy" wines!!! As you imply, a lot of these ugly ducklings can turn into beautiful swans if you're only patient enough. We also get back, of course, to that awful, but useful expression "food wines". This is where they excell.

You write that "given the amount of wine that Bordeaux produces, there is enough to go around if only the Chateau would "make the market free and fair" rather than drip-feeding allocations to create added frenzy after they get 110 points."

But is there enough to go around?
What is fair?
How is the market not free?

You are right, some châteaux eke out the last centime thanks to several tranches - but only the first one sold is sold in small quantities to limited customers at an attractive price. But policies vary and the first growths are a law unto themselves. Many, I believe most châteaux release all at once en primeur (although they may hold back a certain amount for selling down the road when the wine is in bottle).
And let's not forget Latour's historic decision to stop selling futures altogether.

All the best,
Alex

[JimHow]

No need for personal insults Alex, again, as a BWE manager you are held to a higher standard.
You can disagree with Jeff without insulting him personally.
We appreciate your input here as well as Jeff's.
I'm getting ready to buy the following 2009 wines at 20-30% off these already low prices:
Haut Bergey: $32
Camesac $25
Grand Mayne $45
Joanin Becot $24
Monbousquet $46
Cote de Baleau $22
La Tour de Bessan $18
La Tour de Mos $23
La Tour du Pin $42

I'm a regular Parker point chaser!

[Bacchus]

What, no Sociando? Or do you already have some? Also, for those looking for a more affordable option, the Haut Batailley is worth taking a look at in its 09 guise. Since raising the game at Ducru Beaucaillou and GPL, the Borie group seem to be turning their attention to Haut Batailley. Which makes me wonder, how long before its price starts to rise too?

[JimHow]

Already have some.

[Bacchus]

I'm either lazy or forgetful, Jim, but did you taste -- and review -- the 09 Sociando yet? Trying to decide whether to pull the trigger on it, or pick up what few 05s remain on the shelf here.

[JimHow]

Yes I did taste it a couple times actually, and I did like it. Not Parkerized at all, in my opinion. I've gotten it in the $42 range, although I'm kicking myself because I could have gotten it for $36 on sale in NH. I rate it higher than Parker's 90 points.

[Bacchus]

Just read on Decanter's site that the 2010 Sociando sold for 15% less en primeur than the 09! Good news.
http://www.decanter.com/bordeaux-2010/e ... en-primeur

[JimHow]

Yes 2010 Sociando Mallet is selling everywhere en futuro for less than the 2009.

[Jay Winton]

Indeed. Attorney Winton refers to the little known 1989 Lynch Bages exception to the Benevolent Dictator rule.

no attorney, just a wine guzzler.

[pomilion]

I'm getting ready to buy the following 2009 wines at 20-30% off these already low prices:
Haut Bergey: $32
Camesac $25
Grand Mayne $45
Joanin Becot $24
Monbousquet $46
Cote de Baleau $22
La Tour de Bessan $18
La Tour de Mos $23
La Tour du Pin $42

I'm a regular Parker point chaser!

Have you tried '09 Haut Bages Liberal, Jim? It's in the price range of the others you're buying, and both times I tried it recently it was quite good. If you've had it, what were your impressions?