Poll: What is the greatest of the five first growths?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:24 pm

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:20 am

I interpret by "greatest" as "what do you like the most". Is that what you intended, Jim?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:24 am

Indeed Stefan. I chose my words carefully.

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:25 am

Despite my favorite individual Bordeaux of all time coming from Lafite (1959), Latour (1961), Margaux (1990, 2000) and Mouton (1982, 1986), I voted for Haut Brion. More consistent than Mouton, and never suffered the weak decade or two that the other three experienced.

And I love the wines from HB!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:29 am

I’ve had those 6 wines, Tom, and they are indeed every one of them transcendent.

Gerry M. · Post by **Gerry M.** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:11 am

I have to say Haut Brion. I've never had one I didn't really love, even the 1981. I've had many great bottles of all of them but the consistency of Haut Brion and the flavor profile push it to the front for me.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:25 am

I voted Margaux.
Its the one I've had.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:27 am

Margaux is my second choice for the 1990 alone.

jal · Post by **jal** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:15 am

For pure enjoyment, Lafite, followed by Margaux.
For consistency Haut Brion
I love Mouton
I never had a Latour that didn't need 20 more years

My vote goes to Lafite

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:41 pm

Well, if we’re ranking all 5:

Haut Brion - aroma and flavor profile plus consistency
Margaux - aroma and flavor profile
Lafite - aroma and flavor profile, almost a tie with Margaux
Mouton - great highs but least consistent of the 5
Latour - great highs but generally too stern for my palate, never ready (more accurately, I’m too impatient)

I’ll add that not only are all 5 exceptions to the How Decree (otherwise known as the 8-20 Year Golden Rule), but Howing them in their youth (other than In the Name of Science) is punishable by an Edict of Disdain.

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:47 pm

The top three are tough and depending on my mood I could go in many directions to the top. Can't disagree with the majority siding with Haut Brion as it rarely disappoints but it is a more manly drink with the leathery/tobacco notes always capturing my heart but to drink a bottle with with my wife there needs to be a compromise and the nod therefore goes to the sexier Margaux. Lafite I haven't had enough experience with to comment on. Latour I've probably had more vintages than any other first and love it but again more power than elegance puts it a step behind. Moutons inconsistency and continuous disappointments makes me question its place next to the others. Yes in the great years it shines but so do the seconds etc. The firsts should be a step above even in the off vintages and Mouton doesn't seem to step up like the others.

sdr · Post by **sdr** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:47 pm

Maybe La Mission Haut-Brion is better than all of them.

Stu

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Which is the greatest of the five first growths? Great question

By a process of elimination Mouton is the first to go. Not because it is a new money first growth interloper, but because it can be inconsistent and often underwhelms. The bottle variation in the 1980s vintages is disconcerting. But it does deserve its first growth status.

While it is easy to discard Mouton it gets a lot more difficult when you narrow it down to four. The next to go is Haut-Brion. As noted already it is one of the most consistent first growths (with Latour). However on average it is only the equal of La Mission, and with the exception of the 1989 vintage it is rarely if ever the pick of the first growths.

Latour has overtaken Lafite as the most expensive first growth in recent vintages. One of the hallmarks of Latour is making great wine in off vintages. In that sense it is even more consistent than Haut-Brion. However Latour can make plodding wines - in vintages such as 1958, 1975, 1979, 1989 and 1998 - which fomented the famous outburst by Michael Broadbent that Lafite is a racehorse Mouton is a thoroughbred and Latour is a cart horse. Which is unfair of course when you consider the very great wines Latour produces.

Which leaves two. In 2001 I attended a 4x4 1995-98 Medoc first growth tasting. The pecking order was Margaux, Lafite, Mouton, Latour. The top two were very evenly matched, so were the bottom two. Chateau Margaux has an elan that only Lafite among the first growth can match. When we did our Ch. Margaux vertical in 2016, however, there was arguably an absence of a wow factor. So Chateau Margaux is the runner up.

Chateau Lafite is the greatest first growth, the greatest wine in Bordeaux and arguably the world. The only two estates that can challenge Lafite are Ch. Petrus and DRC both producing a minute fraction of what Lafite produces.

Why is Lafite the greatest? Granted it is not the most consistent but when it is right it has no peer. It is the quintessential claret made in the traditional way - like Leoville Barton. What differentiates it from Leoville Barton is that it has the greatest terroir in the world for Cabernet Sauvignon, which gives it its signature. About ten years ago I opened my lone bottle of 1978, almost as an afterthought. I expected it to be mediocre because Parker rated it 87, but it was sublime. It competes with a Petrus (RMP 83) to be wotv. I tried the 1966 two years ago, also expecting it to be feeble, but it was one of the most ethereal wines I have ever had the pleasure to taste. I have been to three tastings when Lafite has been so good it has towered head and shoulders above the opposition. All three events were in the US. The first was at a 2004 horizontal in Manhattan in 2007. The Lafite was staggeringly good. Nothing else came remotely close. The next was in Manhattan in 2009 when it literally waltzed away with the wine of the night, comfortably beating LMHB and Haut-Brion. The third occasion was at one of Jacques’s dinners in Chappaqua in 2011 when the 1995 blew everything off the table.

The answer is Lafite

My rankings on the vintages where I have tasted all five.

1978 - Lafite, Latour, Margaux, Haut-Brion, Mouton
1981 - Margaux, Lafite, Latour, Haut-Brion, Mouton
1982 - Latour, Mouton, Haut-Brion, Lafite, Margaux
1983 - Margaux, Lafite, Mouton, Latour, Haut-Brion
1985 - Lafite, Mouton, Haut-Brion, Latour, Margaux
1986 - Mouton, Margaux, Lafite, Haut-Brion, Latour
1988 - Lafite, Latour, Mouton, Haut-Brion, Margaux
1989 - Haut-Brion, Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, Latour - given this to H-B
1990 - Margaux, Latour, Haut-Brion, Lafite, Mouton
1994 - Margaux, Lafite, Latour, Mouton, Haut-Brion
1995 - Lafite, Margaux, Haut-Brion, Mouton, Latour - evenly matched
1996 - Margaux, Lafite, Latour, Haut-Brion, Mouton - evenly matched
1997 - Mouton, Lafite, Margaux, Latour, Haut-Brion
1998 - Lafite, Mouton, Haut-Brion, Margaux, Latour
2004 - Lafite, Margaux, Latour, Mouton, Haut-Brion

sdr · Post by **sdr** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:39 pm

Best older vintages for the FGs (last 65 years), when each vintage was at its peak:

Lafite - 1959 (second place 1982 or 1986)
Latour - 1961 (second place 1959 or 1982)
Margaux - 1953 (second place 1961)
Haut-Brion - 1961 (1989 coming on strong)
Mouton - 1959 (second place 1961 or 1982)

I hope I am wrong but I don’t think the ‘82s, ‘89s, ‘90s, ‘00s, ‘05s, 09s, 10s will quite reach the heights of these ancient vintages, but that could be nostalgia. But watch out for the ‘96s, too soon to tell.

Stu

jal · Post by **jal** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:29 pm

I agree with what Ian wrote so eloquently about Lafite and Margaux. I also loved the 1978 Lafite, I think it is one of the better wines I’ve had. The other few times I had a Lafite along with a Margaux, my preference has always been for Lafite.
One small disagreement Ian, 1994 Latour sucks! Haut Brion is in my opinion the wine of the 1994 vintage.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:39 pm

I like Ian's analysis and agree with Jacques re the quality of 1978 Lafite. Lafite is my favorite first growth because it represents the elegance and class I love in Bordeaux. I think Lafite does well in weaker vintages, BTW. Mouton and Latour are sometimes heavy handed in comparison. Haut-Brion comes in second for me because of its consistency and for the magic it works on Lucie.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:30 am

jal wrote:I agree with what Ian wrote so eloquently about Lafite and Margaux. I also loved the 1978 Lafite, I think it is one of the better wines I’ve had. The other few times I had a Lafite along with a Margaux, my preference has always been for Lafite.
One small disagreement Ian, 1994 Latour sucks! Haut Brion is in my opinion the wine of the 1994 vintage.

I used to think 1994 Latour sucked Jacques until shortly after I sold six bottles from my OWC purchase, when I realised that it is actually, imro, a really classic lb claret. It was just horribly recalcitrant in its callow youf. The 1996 is just (still), well, hostile to anyone who wants to broach it now. Well, that at least is my take. The vintage of 1994 is a difficult beast but even Leoville-Barton is now pleasantly resolved and mature.

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:20 am

Not easy to answer this question. A matter of personal style preferences maybe.
If you prefer Pauillac wines, like I do, it comes to Latour and Lafite.
If you focus on quality it is wise to focus on under the radar vintages in recent years.
Lafite did poor between 60s and 81 vintage. Nothing special in terms of first growths status. Almost all bottles sold to the far east I suppose.
Latour did far better in this 20 years period.
An even in rather good years like 83, 85, 88, 91, 94, 01 it was superior to Lafite. Lafite did better in 98 and 99 vintage (merlot driven years?). Latour seems to be inferior in 86 vintage, but most of us won't be able to judge in 2050.
94 vintage of Lafite (almost 100% CS) was poor.
If you focus on older vintages, let's say starting with 1920, it's a question of each and every bottle performance since then.
If it comes to perfect expression of cabernet sauvignon my vote goes to Latour.......no doubt about it.

tim · Post by **tim** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:54 pm

I am a huge fan of Haut Brion, simply classic style, consistent over the years.

But for me, I have had more pleasure with Latour than any of the others combined. Especially for older wines. I have far too few in my cellar, and it is the one thing I regret not buying more of when I was actively buying.

SF Ed · Post by **SF Ed** » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:36 pm

+1 on Tim's POV. I love HB and find the it the best "value" (if you can call any 1st growth value) but I think once fully mature Latour is the best of the best.

SF Ed

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:34 pm

Difficult to choose.

All 5 were strong in 40 and 50s. Never forget Ch. Margaux in 1953, Lafite in 1953 and 1955, Haut Brion, Latour and Mouton in 1959, Mouton 49, Mouton 1985 (clearly the best 1. Growth in this vintage). 2000 Lafite is a stunner and as is Latour and Haut Brion. All 5 are great in 2005 and 2010, I favor 2015 Ch. Margaux of all FGs in this vintage and Mouton R. in 2016 vintage.

Let's say I like all five FGs equally!

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:24 pm

For fun, I voted for Margaux. I have virtually no experience with the firsts but the 1999 Margaux the BD served us was surprising in its fullness and completeness, not to mention deliciousness-ness. (For context, that night I preferred the 99 Margaux to the 96 Lafite by a considerable margin but the 95 Cheval Blanc and the 2000 Lynch Bages(!) were right around that level.)

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:39 pm

Boy, I always give Margaux consideration, Hound, in part because of that 1999 Margaux in Maine.
It was great. And of course the 1990 Margaux is one of my top 3 wines of all time.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:25 pm

I think this is a great poll, so I asked an expanded question to a mainly British audience. Here is the thread:

https://wine-pages.com/community/forums ... e-forum.2/