WB thread on wine aging and how older wines can be overrated

[marcs]

Very interesting Wineberserker thread on older wines.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vi ... 1&t=159490

Tom Reddick, who knows his stuff, shows up to say that even great wines usually start to decline after about 30 years, and several other experienced tasters agree with him.

We've had some interesting discussions about Bordeaux longevity recently and this is quite related. My sense is that 20-30 years is the sweet spot for high level classed growths and this thread tended to reinforce that belief, for whatever it's worth.

With that said, I wonder how more contemporary "great" vintages in tannic years are going to age and last -- I'm thinking 2000, 2005, 2010 -- I'm thinking they are going to be longer agers than the 1980s vintages, although we'll see.

[JimHow]

I had a 1982 Leoville Barton the other night that was very nice on the nose, and nice but past its prime on the palate.
I enjoyed that wine much more in its youth.

[DavidG]

Personal preference.
Provenance.

If I start drinking with Tom Reddick's palate and cellar, I may change my tune.

[OrlandoRobert]

Very interesting Wineberserker thread on older wines.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vi ... 1&t=159490

Tom Reddick, who knows his stuff, shows up to say that even great wines usually start to decline after about 30 years, and several other experienced tasters agree with him.

We've had some interesting discussions about Bordeaux longevity recently and this is quite related. My sense is that 20-30 years is the sweet spot for high level classed growths and this thread tended to reinforce that belief, for whatever it's worth.

With that said, I wonder how more contemporary "great" vintages in tannic years are going to age and last -- I'm thinking 2000, 2005, 2010 -- I'm thinking they are going to be longer agers than the 1980s vintages, although we'll see.

I agree, and have thought that for quite some time. Wines like Montrose, Leoville Barton, Latour, et al, more toward 30 years. I've had some phenomenal wines older than 30, but I'm sure that's not the norm. I've also has some phenomenal Bordeaux from the 40s, 50s and 60s from Bern's, that were unreal, but Bern's also has excellent storage, and unique in that they store at temps colder than the norm.

I question whether the new age wines from big vintages like 2005, 2009 and 2010 will age even longer. They have much higher alcohol, so the jury is still out on what they do in that 25-30 year range.

[DavidG]

I went and read what Tom wrote, and I mostly agree with him, but I don’t see him saying that great wines should be drunk up by age 30. He says if given cases of 1977, 1984, and 1989 Mouton, he would:

Sell the 1977, he never liked it much.
Drink the 1984 over the next 20+ years. Not a great vintage but structured and long-lived.
Drink the 1989 over the next 10 years. Maybe past prime. Still, he'll keep drinking them until they’re age 40.

Will the higher-alcohol big vintages like 2005, 2009, and 2010 age well out to 30 years? I bet yes and have them in my cellar, but I'll be hedging those bets by starting to look in on them at age 15-20.

The reality is that there is no one size fits all answer, even for my necrophiliac palate. Within a given vintage, some wines will be on a much longer aging curve than others. Plenty will be in that sweet spot at age 20-30 and start to decline soon after, but some will still be on the upslope. The trick is to figure out which ones. And if you listen to François Audouze, some go through multiple peaks and valleys. On top of all that the variability from bottle to bottle increases with age. We’re dealing with generalizations that are difficult to apply to any one bottle.

After all is said and done, I’d rather drink half my bottles on the upslope and half at peak than half at peak and half over the hill. That’s not so easy when you’ve only got 3 or 4.

[stefan]

I don't remember ever drinking a good Bordeaux in good condition from a strong vintage at age around 30 and thinking, "I should have drunk this before now". The main problem with well stored 30 year old Bordeaux is that the cork may have failed. OTOH, some 40+ year old good Bdx in good condition from a strong vintage would have been better for my taste if drunk earlier. Even so, with few exceptions they were enjoyable.

[SF Ed]

I'm with stefan on this. I like BDX with a lot of age.

My favorite recent anecdote on this was at Tim's 50th bash. I had three glasses in front of me - Haut Brion from 1989, 1953 and 1928. The 1989 was fantastic and perfect, but for my taste would be better with 10 or 20 more years. The 1953 was sublime and the best wine I drank all of last year. The 1928 was great in its own way, but something I bet would have been better 20 years ago.

Francois, with the same 3 wines in front of him, pronounced the 1928 his favorite. He really loves old wine. And I would bet 95% of wine drinkers would pick the 1989 because of its fruit and exuberance.

There is no right answer to this, and I am happy the market doesn't value very old wine as much as I do.

SF Ed

[Blanquito]

I almost always prefer a wine too old than too young, especially red Bordeaux. Of course, I like it best at its apogee.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I prefer wine younger when it still shows fruit without morte and my review late last yr of old burgs and Bordeaux is a good example.
Whenever the issue comes up I say the same thing. Not many wines need keeping for more than 20 yrs after bottling. I have happily drunk young Bordeaux from the top vintages throughout my life and never thought I should have kept it including the tannic 75 vintage and 1982 which to moi tasted great in the mid to late 90s.
Those disagreeing usually come up with anecdotes about old wines or the very longest living wines such as Latour. I have had 100 yr old Latour which was drinkable but more an experiment.
There are two issues here:
A) When a wine or most wines in the context of a vintage have matured enough to be balanced and open enough for drinking - that is, when they enter their drinking window
B) Your personal preference.

I have no problem if Francois or others like wines after 90 yrs such as 1928 Bordeaux. Yet I do not and frankly wonder what the point is. I went to a 1er Cru tasting in Sydney a few yrs back and for my palate the older wines (over 30) with one exception should have been drunk earlier.
For Burgundy, premier cru and most GCs suit my palate at 10-12 years thus I am drinking 2008 to 2010 now. Village wines with few exceptions are fine 5 to 8 yrs after vintage. I love the richness of fruit in Burgundy and see little point in waiting for it to lighten up.
So this issue always brings out contrary opinions but ces’t la vie.

[Tom In DC]

Tim, SF Ed, DavidG, and primarily stefan have already said nearly everything that I might have contributed here. Maybe the 30 year point is the very best for wines made in the last thirty years (which might make it a low point relative to history) , but 50 years has always been my sweet spot for good estates from good vintages.

[Tom In DC]

It's all personal taste in the end.

[Claudius2]

Tom
Totally agree.
But there is a generally held belief that Bordeaux lasts a very long time and there are myths and legends such as the 1771 Lafite from Glamis Castle that add to the mystery and intrigue.
At the end of the day, it comes down to how much you enjoy the wine.
Fully, I expected that as I get older I'd appreciate old wines more. If anything, the opposite is the case and I have to keep tabs on the older wines in storage and make an effort to pull them out, not easy with spinal problems....

[Bordhead2000]

I'm with Stefan on this. Even if the bdx would have been better 10 years earlier, the fact is those bottles weren't opened and now they need to be experienced. I enjoy the tertiary flavors. There is also something rewarding about finding out that the wine is not only still drinkable, but enjoyable in a way that it couldn't have been 10 to 15 years earlier. I also enjoy them when they are young. Wine is a beautiful art form, and there is nothing else like it on the planet.

[sdr]

1982 Bordeaux at age 37:

Still too young: Mouton, Léoville Las Cases

Sweet spot: L’Évangile, Ducru, Léoville Poyferré, Haut Brion, Cos d’Estournel, Pichon-Lalande, Lynch Bages, many others

Too old: Pichon-Baron, Pavie, Palmer, Certan-de-May, Domaine de Chevalier, Canon, La Conseillante

Weird stage: Lafite, Gruaud Larose

Stu