The enjoyable off’s & the off off’s

[CJD]

What do you continue to buy & enjoy & what’s forever & never in your checkout basket?
Prompted by Compte’s tasting I’m perhaps pre programmed on my bdx avoids.
91, 92,93,94,97.
With hesitation but have enjoyed some 80,81,84,87.
Great bdx drinking wines ‘88, ‘98, ‘02 ‘04.
Of course 2001 is super drinking but perhaps not quite an off vintage. I’ve also dipped into ‘08. Barton & Duhart were very tasty at year 10.
If I were to pick a never ever, avoid like the plague, perhaps 1994 would be my year.

[Claret]

94 is good on the Right and the Left has softened with age and drinking well now. Inconsistent vintage with some not so good but some high spots.

[AKR]

CJD: assuming you're referring to backfilling older vintages, my feel is that at this point in time the natural variability in bottles, along with unknown storage, is of comparable import to the vintage.

[Comte Flaneur]

The vintage that I avoid now is 2003. It is now psychological and beyond rational.

A lot of so-called off vintages we will very rarely encounter because they were sold to French supermarkets and drunk long ago. Vintages like 1984, 1991, 1992 etc.

you only see 2013s at airport duty free these days for unsuspecting tourists.

We get stuff coming up in auction lots from the dim and distant past, which cost next to nothing.

[Nicklasss]

I guess i can buy every type of vintages, but when a small vintage, i buy less, and drink it younger. When you're a Bordeaux enthusiast, every vintage matter.

I liked the 1993, 1997 (Clerc Milon delicious) I had, and a 1991 Yquem offered by AlexR was quite good. Even the 1974 Pétrus that Jim brought to BWE no 1 in 2001 was quite drinkable.

Like Comte, I have a irrational non interest for the 2003.

Nic

[Claudius2]

Folks,
the 90's were a poor decade in much of Bordeaux save for 1990 itself, 95, 96 (RB) and 98 (LB) though of course there are always stars in poor vintages for various reasons.
The never buy vintages to me were 91 and 92, with 93 at least producing a few nice wines, and the same for 97 and 99.

I bought a few cases of 94's en primeur and largely agree with Claret, above.
Some were a bit of a disaster (Domaine Chevalier was one) and the vintage was never great.
Yet some of the wines most certainly aged well and surprised me. They simply hit a sweet spot.
I progressively drank them over a ten yr period (all done by around 2009) and by 2005/6, they somehow managed to come together and show character.
I thought the wines of St Julien did well but they were rather angular and dry when young.

1993 was not really a disaster - I went to a few tastings of these wines young, and the better estate (Premiers Crus and other notable wines like Ducru, Cos, etc) actually produced pleasant lighter bodied wines.
Yet they were not made for long keeping.

I have always had an issue with 2003 and regretted wasting money on them en primeur - they were very expensive in Australia as the local currency was low (and is also now).
I though a handful showed really well young such as Lafite, Montrose, Pontet Canet, Cos.
Yet i regretted it later.
I only have a few PC's left that I will hold till 2023.
More of an experiment.

The other vintages between 2000 and 2005 were in my opinion all pretty pleasant though in different ways.
2001 has developed well - they were quite tannic initially though the fruit and tannins have resolved their battle and I have been drinking the remaining bottles.
2002 was higher in acid and lower in tannin than 2001, and I thought they developed into quite nice medium bodied wines. They were a little dry and angular young.
2004 is also quite acidic, some wines showing tartness and the vintage is again uneven. Yet I think they are fine to drink now and have more density than 02 and less tannins than 01.
2007 isn't the disaster it was said to be, and produced numerous pleasant wines that can be drunk now or hold for 5 years or so. A good auction buy.
2006 wines are a little bit enigmatic. I think it is better than 04 for example, but maybe they have not developed as well as I hoped. Probably best in Pomerol (had a nice 06 Le Bon Pasteur over the weekend).
2008 is a very good vintage to me and the wines are still young but starting to be approachable. It is a right bank vintage but quite good in the Medoc and Graves.

Bit too early to say how 2011 to 2013 are going to end up.
2011 may be better than expected. The few examples I tried in Bordeaux and at local tastings were rather ordinary, and I'd say that 2013 was worse.
2012 I think is a serviceable vintage especially on the right bank - which seems to have had a good run since 2004.
I'd also say that since 2004, white Burgundy has had more very good to outstanding vintages than just about anywhere, even more than red Burgs or Bordeaux.

[AKR]

I just had an excellent 2003 Pontet Canet will Bill a few weeks ago.

And a serviceable Branaire by myself.

I think it depends which estates people are referring to.

To me, the 2003 Sociando Mallet is fantastic.

Right up there with 1990, maybe better, esp if one is forced in to buying aftermarket.

[CJD]

Ok......I’ve really enjoyed most 2003 & still do.
The Pichons, Montrose, Beychevelle, Barton & Lagrange are wonderful & what’s not to like about all that Bordeaux fruit....We probably should get accustomed to it.
A few not so ie durcru, along with some st emillion & Lynch disappointed.
I really want to taste 03 Mouton as I sold on a case. Also Cos, & Margaux.
Initially touted by the experts, then derided & now who knows what.
In my glass, 2003 was enjoyable from the get go, a drinkers vintage & will continue to be so for quite some time but .........I suspect I maybe in the minority here.

[robert goulet]

2 of my top ten Bordeaux from last yr. were '97's...
Beau Sejour Becot and Potensac....both displayed all the classic Bordeaux character than a Bordeaux enthusiast seeks....One of my top 5 Bordeaux from this yr....
'07 La Lagune...this was killing

[AlexR]

Let's not lose sight of value for money in this equation.

The price of wines from name estates can vary by a factor of two depending on vintage reputation.

Also, in most instances, the so-called off vintages come around sooner.

Alex R.

[Racer Chris]

I have one bottle of 2013 Chateau Talbot. Will it be an off off or an enjoyable off? How long should I wait to find out?

[stefan]

I have not tasted a drinkable 2013 Bordeaux. I think 2013 is the worst vintage since 1984. Actually, 1984 might be better.

Maybe the Talbot is OK for cooking.

[marcs]

I don't understand the sense in which vintages like 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, etc. are supposed to be "off vintages". Unless "off vintage" just means a vintage where the peaks aren't as high as some other vintages. They are perfectly good and enjoyable. Off vintages like 2013 are getting very rare in the new era of Bordeaux it seems. Since 1997 it seems like there have been only two real "off vintages", 2007 and 2013, and 2007 is questionable. That's down to a rate of 10% at most.

2003 is definitely not an off vintage. It was perhaps overrated at first but now there has been such a correction that it is underrated. There are some excellent left bankers in 2003. They are well priced on the secondary market compared to top vintages as well.

[AlexR]

Mark,

From the Bordeaux perspective, the Americans are seen as fairweather friends, buying into critically-acclaimed vintages and shunning the others, oftentimes paying a very considerable premium for this.
The prevailing view is that there is such a focus on "the best" that the others are simply not sought after.

*Of course* the vintages you cite are not off years!

Vintage generalizations are a necessary evil.
People need guidelines, but they also need to have enough confidence not to be dogmatic about following them...

The last unquestionably poor vintage in my opinion was 2013 - thin, fluid, inconsequential wines in many - but not all, of course - instances.
But outside such an anomaly, I keep an open mind.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[JimHow]

We had a nice bottle of 2013 La Fiefs de Lagrange in our hotel room in Paris last fall, a light, pleasant wine that went very nicely with some cheese overlooking the Eiffel Tower. I know I was the only one in the room who would say this, but I enjoyed the 100% cabernet 2013 La Lagune when we were there. And Alfred Tesseron said that his only regret about his 2013 was that he did not have more.

[Nicklasss]

One question to all: who bought some 2017? Seems like a not fancy or top or appealing vintage, as nobody here talk to much about it.

2013 is definitely one of the/the most disastrous vintage since a long time.

Jim, you should have bought some 2013 instead of 2014. Probably you would have 2 times more 2013.

Give me more 2004, what a vintage! Seems like not that many left in North America. Easier to find the overpriced 2009-2010-2015-2016-2018 (futures), all best vintages of the last 100 years.

Nic