Hey nebbiolo lovers...

[Nicklasss]

I know that SF Ed is a fan of aged nebbiolo. Lately I've been drinking some very nice inexpensive well made nebbiolo from Piedmont.

I was wondering about a few questions:

- what would be a nice nebbiolo wine, to enjoy in it early age (maybe some decanting needed, but that would be ok)?
- do Barbaresco/Barolo needs necessarly lot of time before opening, like Bordeaux? Do they have severe dumb phases like Bordeaux?
- which are the good q/p ration producers?

Many thanks.

Nic

[Tom In DC]

Hey Nic,

The answers are a bit intertwined, so

- Try Nebbiolo d'Alba from good QPR producers (se below) for early drinkers. Also, a bit surprisingly, many Barolo and Barbaresco estates in 2016 seem to have produced amazingly approachable "normale" wines.

- Barolo and Barbaresco used to be some nasty stuff on release, harsh and undrinkable, needing 20+ years to evolve into something delicious with food. They've been making wine that is drinkable much sooner, starting with some (often failed) experiments in the 1990's, getting more things worked out in the 2000's and seeming to hit a good place in the 2010's. So, to answer your question, I don't think the old stuff had a dumb phase like Bordeaux because it was just completely shut down behind tannin and acidity from birth. And I've been trying early 2000's decade wines that are drinking well, so the changes made then don't seem to have induced a phase where the wines don't show as well. I don't have much concern about whether wines made this century will develop like the bottles from the 1950's, 60's and 70's because I'll either be in the great tasting room in the sky or drinking from a sippy cup long before any of these wines reach 50 years of age.

- La Ca' Nova, Pelissero, Produttori del Barbaresco, Castello Verduno, Cigliuti, Paitin, Albino Rocca, Castello di Nieve, (<-- Barbaresco, Barolo -->) G.D. Vajra, Silvio Grasso, Borgogno, Abbona, Allesandria, Revello, Oddero, Pira, Fennochio, and Massolino all produce wines at decent prices I'd be happy to have in my cellar.

[Nicklasss]

Many thanks Tom.

Also what is the best food match with Barbaresco and Barolo? I was happy to go to BWE in Washington DC earlier this year, before the covid crash, but you missed me not being there with Gail, since you moved to Colorado.

Please other, chime in.

Nic

[jal]

I agree with Tom, Barolo and Barbaresco are much more approachable young than they used to be and the names he cites are perfect.
As well as 2016, I found the few 2013 and 2015 I drank to be ready to come out play.
I like Langhe Nebbiolo a lot, and it works well young.
If you want to experiment, try the wines from the Piedmont communes of Gattinara, Ghemme or Carema, I have enjoyed good nebbiolo form there at a tasting a few years back, but the problem is they can be hard to find (except maybe for Gattinara).
I love nebbiolo in the fall especially with hearty meat dishes such as osso buco or braised lamb shanks as well as with meat ravioli.

[Comte Flaneur]

Nic - echoing Tom’s sentiments Massolino make a superb Nebbiolo, a junior Barolo, if you will, like Rosso is to Brunello

[tim]

I can't say I know that much about Nebbiolo, but in the movie Somm Into the Bottle there was an interesting chapter where they focused on Barolo and the shift to using new oak barrels. It was a fascinating perspective and one that might put in context the change in winemaking techniques that made Barolo more approachable.

[stefan]

I opened a 2010 Marchesi di Barolo Barbaresco last night for a zoom dinner. Lucie liked it, but the smell bothered me so much that I uncorked a 2010 Costanti Brunello to drink. Later I went back to the Barbaresco. It was much better, but not a wine I would choose to drink. It is not comparable to Produttori del Barbaresco or Gattinara, to mention two widely available QPR Barbaresco that I drink from time to time.

In my limited experience, I think Barbaresco is best drunk before age 15 or 20. Some Barolos live forever, but I have probably drunk more Barolo that I considered over the hill than Bordeaux, and I drink a lot more Bordeaux than Barolo. As both Tom and Jacques said, Barolo vinted this century does not require cellaring for a long time to be drinkable. For me that is a plus as I do not have a supply of older Italian wines.

[AKR]

I just bought a few books on the region to familiarize myself, and occasionally buy some vintages, but in general I find B&B to be frustrating. Maybe 1 in 4 bottles really delights me, even with age, even with decanting, even with the perfect food etc. It's not very predictable, and when wrong its usually tannic and/or "not cheap". I pulled a 2010 Produtorri Barbaresco a few weeks ago (ITNOS) the first of a case laid away for the kids, and really didn't care for it. Harsh, tannic, angular, underfruited for my palate. Maybe another decade will improve it. Who knows?

For those who are able to get shipping from Chambers St. in NYC, they have crazy pipeline of old Italian wines, and even though its going be costy, they are both reliable and honest. (They also sometimes can get old Spanish wines, even more rare stateside) One has to get on their email list, as when they get a supply, it goes fast...within hours.

The one thing I will give credit to B&B for - that is so insanely hard for other regions/grapes/producers to pull off - is in some cases to pull of the magnificent pairing of lightness yet intensity. Almost anyone can - with enough oenological consultants and vineyard work make a jacked out wine - but it usually comes with with 'pricetag' of massive extraction, syrupiness, viscosity etc. Pulling off rich flavor without gooiness is hard, but sometimes Piedmont can do that. A Gaja that BWE stalwart jal poured for us demonstrated that in one of those epiphanal moments! (and a Musar that he poured at another event showed the same attributes too!)

[Blanquito]

Enjoying a 2004 Sori Paitin Barbaresco tonight. Not a profound Nebbiolo by any means, but a thoroughly enjoyable one. Probably mid modern by Piedmontese standards given that there’s some evident fruit on display, but still has lots of dry structure on the finish. This was like $30 when I bought.

[Blanquito]

And +1 to everything Arv said (ie B&B is frustrating, ChambersSt is amazing for old, perfectly stored italian wines).

[jal]

We went to a restaurant for the first time in a month yesterday (and the second time since forever), the list had a 2016 Castello di Neive Barbaresco for $29 which is the price I paid at the local store a few months ago, we tried it instead of opening the byo bottle we brought and it was like drinking through a wall of acid at first. It did soften quite a bit during dinner but i wouldn’t open these for a while, at least a blanquito if not two.

[JimHow]

I know nothing about Produttori other than that basic bottling available in NH.
I did have some sort of reserva at a restaurant once that was really nice.
How are the prices from Bassins, which is usually a few dollars more but I've always had good service there.
Also, how long can these wines be expected to age? I'm thinking of buying 12 bottles, the first wine is a quantity of 2, the other 11 are just one each.

2016 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco
VM94 WA95 750ml | SKU 81872
120 Available
Each
$41.99
Total
$83.98
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Montefico
WA95 750ml | SKU 82539
57 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Montestefano
VM94 WA94 750ml | SKU 82540
52 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Muncagota
WA95 750ml | SKU 82541
60 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Ovello
WA96 VM95 750ml | SKU 82542
53 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Paje
VM94 750ml | SKU 82543
59 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Pora
WA94 750ml | SKU 82544
60 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Rabaja
WA97 750ml | SKU 82545
9 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Rio Sordo
WA96+ 750ml | SKU 82546
47 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2014 Produttori del Barbaresco - Barbaresco Riserva Rio Sordo
VM93 750ml | SKU 78039
13 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99
Qty X Delete

2015 Produttori del Barbaresco Barbaresco Riserva Asili
WA96 750ml | SKU 82538
58 Available
Each
$69.99
Total
$69.99

[JimHow]

Also, Italian wines are on sale in NH this month, looks like the basic Produttori is the same price as at MacArthur's, $41.99, but with 15% off that's $35.69.
I'm assuming that's the 2016 in stock, do you know, Gerry?

[Racer Chris]

I have several bottles of the basic 2015 Produttori Barbaresco, and a couple of the 2016 in my cellar. Based on my limited experience, that should be enough to satisfy my urge for Nebbiolo for quite a while. So far I prefer Sangiovese based wines by some margin, although I've never had an aged Barolo for comparison.

[jal]

Also, how long can these wines be expected to age?

Many decades
I have had 1970 Produttori Normale that was still going strong after 40 years

[DavidG]

Jim, I don't drink much nebbiolo but the Produttori normale is my go-to for QPR. I used to hate Barolo and Barbaresco - ask Tom who tried to convert me numerous times. I eventually got it. They have gotten more user-friendly in recent decades.

The Produttori del Barbaresco "normale" on the shelves now is the 2016. WS low is about $35, widely available at $39. I grabbed a bunch on sale with wine.com coupons for $33/btl back in February, but they have been having some serious growing pains with stocking and shipping issues lately, so I would avoid that merchant right now.

Produttori also make an even more basic Langhe bottling that drinks earlier but doesn't age as well, and goes for around $20. No personal experience.

The single vineyard Proddutori bottlings currently available are the 2015s. They get released about a year behind the normale and tend to run in the $60-70 range. I love these too but my palate isn't refined enough to make it worth the extra cost.

[JimHow]

Thanks that answers my questions, I'll get some of the 2016 basic stuff in NH.
Gerry, have you tried it yet?

[JCNorthway]

In general, the riserva bottlings should last for decades. I'm not sure what kind of vintage 2015 was, but I have several bottles of 2004 riservas that still require decanting before drinking. The Vinous review of the 2016 normal Barbaresco (Galloni review) showed estimated drinking window of 2021-2041. Vinous reviews of the 2015 riservas indicate drinking windows up to 2035-2040. Based on vintage characteristics of the 2016 and reviews, I got a case of the regular Produttori.

You should keep an eye out for the 2016 Barolos, which have also received great reviews, especially for the normale bottlings.

[Nicklasss]

Just ordered some 2015 Alessandria Barolo.

Still thinking about buying some Pelissero Barbaresco too.

Nic

[marcs]

I agree about Nebbiolo in general being frustrating. I haven't bought too many based on those experiences.

What do people think about higher end Barolo, is it worth the price? I had a good experience when I was just starting out with some 1998 Robert Conterno Barolo Cascina Francia which I got at a bargain price. A few years ago, wanting to repeat it, I got some 2011 and 2012 Conterno Barolo on release, even though prices had escalated significantly. On the assumption that these wines will take a long time to come around I have been sitting on them since then. Hearing people say they come around earlier now makes me curious about trying them. If I don't like them I may want to sell them given that prices have escalated still further since then, but I don't want to overreact based on drinking them too young -- I had been mentally filing them away in my "2025 and after" drinking bin.

[jckba]

Had the 2016 entry level anniversary effort from Azelia the other night and was absolutely delighted as it was approachable and it seems as if they have dialed back the oak as compared to 10 or so years ago.

[Tom In DC]

Ciao marcs,

I was mostly taking about the Barolo DOCG (normale) as far as approachability, not Cru's and certainly not the high end producers. Roberto Conterno is still making wines that need lots of time. The 2012 vintage was weaker than most recently, but R Conterno has a reputation for making the most of every vintage. I think 2025+ is a good timeline, but If you do try one early, I'd pick a 2012. Open it several hours before serving with a good northern Italian meal.

But take everything I say with a grain as at this point as I'm not buying high end new releases that won't come around to my taste until I'm in my 90's.

A presto,
Tom

[SF Ed]

I am a big fan of Produttori del Barbaresco for not super-old Nebbiolo (although I did have a 1967 PdB Pora a few years ago that was profound).

The normale usually drinks decently on release but will age for a while, and the riservas are good in 10-15 years (they don't need 40 years like most top Barolos do in my opinion).

I also think the more northern areas, like Gattinara, are good places to explore, especially with climate change giving them ripe grapes most years now.

SF Ed