What is your Bordeaux classification?

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:53 pm

Just for a bit of Friday fun I constructed my own Bordeaux classification, based on the original 1855 classification, but including the rest of Graves/Pessac, Pomerol/Saint-Emilion, Sauternes/Barsac and a few worthy Cru bourgeois wines. It is based on my own experiences over more than 30 years and my subjective judgement. It also includes a new Second Premier A category for wines that I think are better than second growth, but which I can’t bring myself to put into the first growth category, because they are not quite as good as the ones already there, and would therefore slightly devalue the first growth brand. It is not a complete list and does not include names I am not familiar with including quite a few in St-Emilion.

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JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:59 pm

This is a fantastic and well put together list Ian. Thanks!

Maybe its just me, but is there a third and fourth growth section missing? I can't seem to see those.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:00 pm

Sorry Joel having tech problems.

We need to bring the technology on this site into the 21st century.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:03 pm

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Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:04 pm

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greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Meyney and Sociando?

JCNorthway · Post by **JCNorthway** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:40 pm

gbf, they are on the lists, but you have to use the bar on the right to drag down to see the rest of the lists.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:42 pm

If Lanessan rates 5th growth status then Senejac certainly does.

William P · Post by **William P** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:25 pm

Thanks Ian. Well done.

Bill

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:31 pm

Fun stuff. The main interest for me in these reclassifications is (a) deciding which current 5th growths should be promoted, (b) deciding where to place the Right Bankers, (c) deciding which cru bourgeois should be elevated, and (d) figuring out where to put all those moribund classified growth, mostly from the Margaux appellation. You seem to have navigated all of these tasks quite well, Ian. Bravo.

JCNorthway · Post by **JCNorthway** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:37 pm

Ian, you've covered a lot of Bordeaux producers in your 30 year journey. My list might be 20-25% of yours - and skewed toward the lower half of your list.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:27 pm

Great work Ian. It takes time to figure out something like that, like pointed out blanquito with the multiple challenges. Other important item he forgot is which vintages to use? Last 50 years? Last 30 years? Last 20 years? Less years?

Now, we get to the fun part: where I do not agree with you... let me check

. I'm not supporting the Second Premier A thing for sure. There is no shame to be a second, or third growth, or fourth, or fifth. To have a bigger listing is ok too, but why keep wines like Croizet-Bages in there?

Tour Saint Christophe gets a super promotion to Fourth Growth, after...6 vintages of existence (2014 to 2019). Poor Bon Pasteur suffering Rolland pestilence.

Nic

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:21 am

Contrary to Nicola, I love this classification and think it was very well done. It was very hard to find any I disagreed with and not a single one that I would move more than one level up or down. Thanks for posting.

I do submit for Malartic Lagraviere to move up one spot to fourth though.

I will also submit Capbern for consideration for 5th after the 2018/2019 vintages show well. But I do agree that it has not reached that level of a track record yet.

Is this list based on all 30 years of experience equally? Or favoring different decades over others?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:37 am

I find it interesting that Ian puts Lynch Bages at Second "Premier A." For me, they are lucky if they are still the fifth growth that they were 145 years ago.

Lynch Bages... Equivalent to LLC, Ducru, Cos, the Barons, Montrose, etc.?

I respectfully disagree.

tim · Post by **tim** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:13 am

Interesting list. Quite a lot that I agree with, quite a lot that I disagree with.

One immediate: I would put Suduiraut at the same level as Climens, etc.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:45 am

Don't get me wrong Joel, i like Ian's classification. There are some "brexit" type inconsistancies, and the Second premier A is a kind of Frankeinstein mix of 1855 and Saint Émilion classifications, an horror.

I think that nobody is against the fact the La Mission Haut Brion is of First Growth level. Why would it be a shame to think that for the last 30 vintages, Pichon Baron or Léoville Las Cases are the "new 1973 Mouton"? Or Lynch Bages a quintessial Third Growth, while Palmer gets to Second, while Durfort Vivens still get some honnors as a Fifth Growth?

But Ian had the guts to post it, all to his honor.

I'm looking for his Bourgogne and Northern Rhône classification now.

Nic

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:46 pm

Thanks for all your comments.

I was just bored and wanted to have some fun.

Apparently John Gilman did his own classification in which he downgraded LLC to a third and declassified Langoa!

Nic the Premier A is just dividing up the second growths into two parts to recognise the super seconds as high achievers rather than promote them all to FG and devalue the FG brand as Parker did in his 2003 classification where he listed no less than 20 FGs.

Jim - I thought long and hard about Lynch. I went through a period of hating this estate. Especially after our sub par experience in 2015.

But now I recognise it really is a super second. It is not just because of the 1982, the 1985 and the 1989. It is because of the 1983, the 1986, the 1988, the 1996, the 2000, the 2016 and the 2019 from reliable sources is a wotv contender.

I was at a 2016 tasting and tasted the Comtesse, Baron, Lynch and GPL together - it was difficult to separate them and all best ever/top three for these estates. Lynch has to be a super second and GPL a second. No two ways about it.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Ian
Just one question.
Is your classification based on a specific period of time?
I ask this as even since Mouton was reclassified in 1973, just about every wine has had its ups and downs. And some have arguably had multiple peaks and troughs.

Part of my reasoning is that I attended a tasting in Australia some years back with a group of wine critics and writers where we tasted numerous classed growths plus a few CB’s including Sociando Mallet. However he were limited to only two vintages thus the event was in no way an attempt to form any classification system - but all tasted blind it was some fun.

To my mind it showed that the 1855 classification at least still made sense but Latour, HB and Margaux were the “Premier Cru A” wines. The other notional firsts based on overall scores were LMHB, Cos and I think PL. Note that not all the classed growths were attempted otherwise I think we would have suffered palate fatigue. Wines such Ducru, Montrose and GL were seconds yet so was Mouton, and Lafite was rated a third. Which in 2020 is unlikely to be relevant. When the numbers were revealed Sociando was fractionally ahead of it.

Some lesser wines such as Camensac and La Tour Carnet were given low scores but I argue that many of the less famous Chateaux are now much more reliable. Actually may pull out an 09 Camensac from the wine fridge soon.

In the meantime I’ll try suggesting a few ideas myself but I simply have little experience with at least half of the Medocs and really have no idea how to classify RB wines, Graves or Sauternes.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:04 pm

Comte, I think you did a great job. And I like also your Right Bank wines and liquorous wines classification. The only thing is that i would not create a "super second" status. Creating a "super second" status is accepting that some Chateaux actually rated Second, don't deserve that rating. With what you defined as classification, i would just be more strict and say:

First = First
Second "Premier A" = Second
Second = Third
Third = Fourth
Fourth = Fifth
Fifth = Cru Bourgeois Supérieur (or something like that, just over Cru Bourgeois)

It is like your Bordeaux loving, serene and very humain heart didn't want to do sorrow to the Second that would become Third, etc... (i know, i may sound like having no heart!) BUT, they won't change the classification and you're allowed to think and say what you want.

And I still don't understand some nomination like Tour Saint Christophe, after a few vintages and no proof it can hold well and evolve well over 20-30 years... so i would also consider Chateaux that have been known and producing great red Bordeaux that are special, and hold and evolve well on minimum 30 years. But it is me and my very personnal thinking, you don't need to agree

.

And where would you put Liber Pater? :-S

Nic

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:15 pm

Nic, in theory I agree with you. However in practice we already operate under the assumption of "super seconds". So maybe its just easiest to keep in line with that since thats the general consensus.

I also agree with you about TSC, I am not sold on them yet either. But they have good potential. I was very much in line with Ian on left bank and Pomerol. However I tend to differ more on the St Emilion wines.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:21 pm

Ok, so let's think about the opposite : there should be also a First 'Premier A' , a Third 'Premier A', a Fourth 'Premier A' and a Fifth 'Premier A', if there is a Second 'Premier A', because it is a reality.

But in that case, which producers will want to be in the "regular" Growth status? Basically none, they will want to be in the 'Premier A' status. So that brings me back to only five "solid and deserved" classified Growth status.

Nic

Dandersson · Post by **Dandersson** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 pm

Thank you Ian, very nice.

Best, Dan

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:12 pm

Nic nobody talks about ‘super thirds’ or ‘super fourths’ - or ‘super firsts’ for that matter - now that could change if Lafite and Latour released specially cuvees of ‘Tete de Lafite’ and ‘Essence de Latour’ - with production restricted to 1000 cases. It would be profitable for sure because these wines would be more expensive than Petrus and Le Pin, but I doubt they would stoop to do something so vulgar.

The only concept that matters, therefore, is ‘super seconds’ - my classification just reinforces this notion. Therefore I reject your notion that second = third, third = fourth etc. Leoville Lascases and Brane Cantenac are both seconds.

I rest my case your honor.

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:13 am

Comte Flaneur wrote:Just for a bit of Friday fun I constructed my own Bordeaux classification, based on the original 1855 classification, but including the rest of Graves/Pessac, Pomerol/Saint-Emilion, Sauternes/Barsac and a few worthy Cru bourgeois wines. It is based on my own experiences over more than 30 years and my subjective judgement. It also includes a new Second Premier A category for wines that I think are better than second growth, but which I can’t bring myself to put into the first growth category, because they are not quite as good as the ones already there, and would therefore slightly devalue the first growth brand. It is not a complete list and does not include names I am not familiar with including quite a few in St-Emilion.

169F75E6-43CE-4CBA-A0E1-F4015506F7FE.png

Much closer to my hierarchy than John’s.

A few thoughts. Palmer and Pichon Lalande are First Growth material . VCC most definitely Right Bank FG, over Le Pin.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:47 pm

I never saw Gilman’s full classification, I just heard about some of his more controversial rankings. Is it possible to see it?

Mark/Claudius - you asked if the classification is based on any particular time period and the answer is no. More like a judgement about the estate’s overall track record.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:39 pm

Ian
Okay I get it.
I think you did a pretty good job overall.
Some Margaux estates have improved in the last few decades like Malescot and Giscours. Maybe Dufort Viviens and D’Issan as well.
Cheers
Mark

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:08 pm

Great job Ian. I got a lot of pleasure poring over your rankings. Very little to disagree with. I might drop Cos to regular second, and drop a few of your seconds to thirds. A lot depends on which particular vintages the classification is based. I’m sure my experience is less than yours - a number of these I wouldn’t have a clue where to place them other than by what I’ve read. Surprised at Les Forts Latour and Pavillion Rouge as seconds as well but these are examples where I haven’t had the experience with them to offer an informed opinion.

I like that you’ve split the seconds into super seconds and regular seconds. That’s the way most seem to look at them. How you label each group is a minor matter compared to acknowledging a need to distinguish between them and the hard work of placing the wines within them.

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:53 pm

Ian,

A lot of thought went into your classification and little to quibble with. It takes a stab of assimilating both sides of the river even though some may think that's sacrilege along with the stickies. We all have our likes and dislikes and the one that sticks out the most for me is seeing Lafite right at the top of the page. Over the last year and a bit we've had three opportunities to have multiple vintages of Lafite the most striking was in South Florida with Stuart and the gang last Feb and the Lafites though good did not wow as by comparison to other FGs and other lesser classifications. Again this summer 6 vintages side by each were good but lacked the wow factor with everyone feeling let down and if you look at others that we had the same night for dinner the 2000 l'Evangile blew the Lafite's away as did the 1990 Leoville Barton. For the the money Lafite is not worth the risk/hype to be sitting on top of the pile or in my cellar even though there are a few left. Just my opinion but I'd rather have 3-4 bottles of the Pichon's or others than a Lafite. Thanks for taking the time Ian putting this together and letting us all have some fun trying to poke at it. Like David there are many wines on the list that even after all these years I've had little to no experience with and many I have never tried so just for the shear scope of the list I commend you.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:58 pm

Danny I think you - and Stu - have been unlucky with Lafite. For me, among the firsts, it is the first among equals. As the Sage of College Station, TX, once famously remarked ‘there is only one thing wrong with Lafite, and that is the price’. The price got so silly in early 2011 that I - tragically - sold four cases, sadly depriving me of future joys but with £47k landing in my bank account. If I was Saskia Rothschild I would be mightily pissed off if Pichon Baron got elevated to FG status.

On four separate occasions Lafite demonstrated its class in my opinion, three times in the US and two/three times with BWE folk.

1. Most famously in NYC in fall of 2009 when we did the 1989 shootout. It didn’t just win, leaving likes of Haut-Brion and LMHB trailing in its wake, it won by a country mile.

2. At a 2004 tasting in NYC in 2008 it was so far ahead of everything else it was embarrassing.

3.Likewise at one of Jacques’s famous Monday night Kittle House dinners in 2011, the 1995 Lafite slaughtered the opposition.

4.The Lafite vertical we did here in London (average age 37 years)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7656&p=64107&hilit=lafite#p64107

More generally should we as BWE think about publishing our own classification? We are, after all, BWE...

s*d*r · Post by **s*d*r** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:57 pm

Comte Flaneur wrote:I never saw Gilman’s full classification, I just heard about some of his more controversial rankings. Is it possible to see it?

Gilman is to me the most thorough, interesting and provocative wine writer today. His newsletter, View From The Cellar, is only viewable by subscription though. Most of you know he is a staunch traditionalist who tends to like his wines old to very old.

Here’s a small bit of the recent article; I can’t too quote much of course. You may already be aware of these changes. His time frame is 1955 to present.

First Growths:

Up: Ducru (several legends and terrific the last 15 years), Pichon Lalande (some excellent wines in the ‘50s and ‘60s, also greatest wines ever in the last 15 years)

Down: Mouton (a few fantastic vintages but far too many underachievers in good vintages where they only made 4th growth level wines)
On the Edge: Margaux

Second Growths:

Up: La Mission Haut-Brion (borderline 1st Growth), Palmer (1st Growth in some vintages, often outstanding although too inconsistent for 1st Growth)

Down: Cos d’Estournel (even the 80’s vintages not that great), Léoville Las Cases (80’s vintages stuck in neutral, overly extracted), Léoville Barton (should be 3rd or 4th Growth, good but not exceptional), Léoville Poyferré (younger vintages disappointing although some older vintages clearly 2nd Growth), numerous Margaux, including Lascombes and Durfort-Vivens (none at 2nd Growth level in the last 50 years although some improving recently)

Stu

s*d*r · Post by **s*d*r** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:11 pm

The only change I am sure of from personal experience is that La Mission Haut-Brion is definitely a First Growth.

I share Gilman’s relative disappointment with Mouton, Margaux and Léoville Las Cases.

Lafite is a question mark for me. While the ‘59 is a lifetime top five, none of the other vintages have dazzled me even though I enjoy them very much. Sixty-one is variable. Eighty-two is a real puzzle but may yet still sort itself out to greatness. A recent ‘’86 was solid 2nd Growth quality but lacked complexity. A ‘90 earlier this year was outstanding though as is ‘96; ‘03 and ‘04 good to very good. I am eager to try the ‘00 which I have never tasted.

Kudos to Ian for a fantastic effort which I hope will get published in major wine magazines such as The World of Fine Wine or Decanter.

Stu

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:21 pm

“More generally should we as BWE think about publishing our own classification? We are, after all, BWE...”

I like it Ian. Perhaps a good project for 2021:

“The Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts Classification of 2021.”

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:57 pm

s*d*r wrote:Gilman is to me the most thorough, interesting and provocative wine writer today.

Agreed completely, though I don’t find his New World reccos as reliable as his Old World ones.

Down: Cos d’Estournel (even the 80’s vintages not that great), Léoville Las Cases (80’s vintages stuck in neutral, overly extracted)

I also concur with this. The 1990 is the only consistently thrilling Cos in my experience, along with the (far too infrequent) good bottles of the 82. I’ve long thought LLC overrated.

Léoville Barton (should be 3rd or 4th Growth, good but not exceptional), Léoville Poyferré (younger vintages disappointing although some older vintages clearly 2nd Growth)

Leoville Barton really only seemed to hit its stride in 1990, and has gone from strength to strength since 2000. But pre-1990 vintages have all been below a 2nd Growth in my experience... L. Poyferre is almost the exact inverse, with the 82, 85, 89 and 90 all stunners, but vintages in the 90’s are underwhelming and stuff since 2000 became increasingly garish and sort of embarrassing for a great growth IMHO.

jal · Post by **jal** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:34 pm

I really can't make any comments about this, I have had so few Bordeaux from this century, the wine tastings we went to mainly dealt with Bordeaux from the 80s and 90s with a few 21st century wines sprinkled here and there. As much as I would love to say GPL doesn't belong anywhere in the first four categories, or that LLC is equal to La Mission, I find that I don't have enough experience with the past 17-18 vintages to offer a qualified opinion.

All I will say then is that Ian did a great job with a very interesting project, he obviously has tasted so many more Bordeaux than I have and if anyone this side of professional wine critics can be deemed qualified to undergo this endeavor it is our Comte Flaneur et Boulevardier.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:52 pm

I should try putting one together. Personally, I’d merge the two banks, and drop anything that uses Rolland, Bouard and their ilk, as not really being Bordeaux but something international instead.

I’d move La Mish, Petrus, Lafleur to FG for sure.

VCC and Trotanoy to Super Seconds, for sure.

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:55 pm

Ian,

The only Lafite that truly wowed me was the 54 we had last year and it really was in the top 5-10 lifetime experiences so maybe that should make it worth of its greatness. The rest have been good but not stellar as one would expect for the price and ratings including the 82,83,85,86, 89, 90, 96, 99, 2000, 2004 that we've had in this past year. The one that shows the most promise is the 2000 but it is still a baby and not showing much of anything this Sept. I'm kinda paddling in Stu boat on this one and for me the most solid FG to stand the ages both old and new has been Latour. Haut Brion is nipping at its heels. Margaux and Mouton have not shown the consistency one expects and yes La Mission has upped their game but still trails its cross the road counterpart HB.

Personally I've had better experiences through the last 30 yrs with Canon la Gaffaliere that either Pavie Macquin or Troplong Mondot and I'd flip those. Our sentimental favourite Corbin is missing and I think if you've got TSC in there the run that Lilian Ladouys is having may give them a 5th growth consideration.

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:26 am

Ducru is consistent; they routinely make some of the best wines in the Medoc. Consistency is important, but let me ask this. Can you name a single year when Ducru was the wine of the vintage? Or even in the top three? I can’t.

jal · Post by **jal** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:37 am

I’m with Ian on Lafite. The top three Bordeaux I’ve ever had are 1989 Lafite, the 1995 Lafite and the 1996 Margaux. I’d rate them over the countless Latours, Moutons and Haut Brion I’ve drank.
Obviously, this is a matter of taste.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:59 am

Thanks Jacques for all your kind compliments!

Mark re Ducru I can think of several vintages where Ducru was a top five contender: 1970, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2009, 2014.

Danny - Lafite often doesn’t shine in comparative tastings and it is definitely a wine to contemplate. I remember reading Robert Parker’s review of the 1985 in the 1989 edition of his Wine Buyer’s Guide, in which he questioned Lafite’s unpardonable inconsistency and alleged lack of depth. Of that wine, which he awarded 86 points he wrote: ‘(It) should be better, but for followers of fashion its extravagant price will provide a moderately intense, cedar, woody, herbaceous, leather-scented bouquet in a medium-bodied format. The finish is tannic, and after a pensive sip, one is likely to wonder whether that is all there is.” In an earlier edition he awarded the 1978 just 83 points.

He clearly did not get these wines. I can imagine how awkward they may have been in their youth, but wines which turned out to be among the top few wines of these respective vintages. Unpardonable on his part.

Our 2018 Lafite dinner really brought home to me what Lafite is all about: “The hallmark of Lafite: attributes of nervosity, edginess, tension, Cabernet leafiness, impeccable poise, perfect balance, a seamless palate and a glorious finish. This is what Lafite is all about. It is in my opinion the first among equals.” These are not obvious, fruity, showy wines, but wines of unmatched class and pedigree.

I went through on a spreadsheet all my first growth scores taking in wines going back to 1929. Lafite was the clear winner with an average score of 95.6, followed by Mouton, 94.6, Margaux 94.3, Haut-Brion 94.2 and Latour 93.2. What was surprising was that Latour was the least consistent and that showed in our early 2019 Latour dinner, which was very hit and miss. Mouton was better later that year...the scores for Mouton above were flattered by including several modern wines from the Philippe Dhalluin era, where the standard improved significantly.

Btw Corbin is in the right bank classification listed as a 4th, perhaps it would be fair to elevate it to a third.

I somehow doubt we will ever be able to publish a BWE classification because we will never be able to agree among ourselves.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:21 pm

As the generous and infinite BD makes all decisions with wisdom here, the word "agreement" is useless on BWE.