Formal dissenting thread for 2021 classification

[Comte Flaneur]

Re the Aquitaine Papers thread if you would like to dissent from the template I posted please post your representation here in this thread. Because it will probably go to a vote

The more reasons the better. But: it is not a requirement to provide reasons or supporting evidence for your submission.

[tim]

Can I dissent about the additional category? I don't see a need for a super-seconds category. And removing it would cause a lot of the seconds to move down.

[Musigny 151]

If the VCC. is not confirmed as a First Growth, I am going to take my toys away and have a tantrum. The new classification is a hoax, a rigged election, and my lawyers will ask for multiple recounts, and dispute every single vote. If this is not successful, we are going to the Supreme Court, and since I appointed many of the justices, I will hope they will be intimidated by my tweeting to rule in my favor. Failing that my supporters, the Certanties, will march on the next BWE convention and complain.

[Comte Flaneur]

Can I dissent about the additional category? I don't see a need for a super-seconds category. And removing it would cause a lot of the seconds to move down.

There seems to be some support for getting rid of the super seconds category (Jim, Tim, RC) but also suppport for keeping it (DG, me).

Couple of points here.
1. The current 2nd growth classification is arguably the one that has stood the test of time least well.
2. No one talks seriously about super firsts or super thirds or fourths
3. Regarding Mark’s point about VCC and the push to upgrade Angelus to a Second from a third the problem you will have is that we will be sending the message to the world that we regard these two wines as equals. Which I certainly do not.


So as a compromise I would suggest we ditch the two tiers and introduce an asterisk to denote the over achievers in the second growth classification.

So for example Pichon Longueville Baron* and
Gruaud-Larose without an asterisk.
Vieux Chateau Certan* and Angelus
La Conseillante* and Pavie

When Pavie reverts to making more trad wines we can award it an asterisk.

[Comte Flaneur]

Another dissent was over Mouton and perhaps restore it to its pre-1973 status.

I would push back pretty hard on that for a fewreasons:

1) Mouton has made some of the greatest wines ever to come out of Bordeaux: 1945, 1959, 1982, 2009 and 2016, regarded by many as the wine of the greatest ever Bordeaux vintage.
2) Since Philippe Dhalluin took over Mouton has been on fire
3) The wines do not generally trade at a discount to other FGs as Haut-Brion does.


Mark-Claudius suggested downgrading Lafite as well. I would push back even harder on that one, but I know we have other Lafite sceptics here.

[JimHow]

This is your project so I’ll defer to you, Comte, but why are we debating all this in a separate thread? Over the course of the year these threads are going to get separated. Why not have this whole discussion in one tidy thread, like the Trump thread? You’re just watering down your main thread. Like at the constitutional convention that hot summer in Philadelphia, the debate will be heated, I expect.

Discussions that start in the main thread will cross over to here, and vice versa. I understand why polls need to be posted separately, but isn’t dissent part of the debate?

So you have Gruaud Larose as a second growth... Hmmm.

Should Grand Puy Lacoste remain classified? I’m going to go over to the other thread and discuss that point.

[Comte Flaneur]

Other dissenting opinions

1) raise Petit Village to 3rd and Bourgneuf to 4th - Izak
2) raise Canon La Gaffeliere to 3rd - Nic
3) Raise St-Pierre to 3rd -Nic
4) Include Destieux to 5th - Nic

[OrlandoRobert]

Other dissenting opinions

1) raise Petit Village to 3rd and Bourgneuf to 4th - Izak
2) raise Canon La Gaffeliere to 3rd - Nic
3) Raise St-Pierre to 3rd -Nic
4) Include Destieux to 5th - Nic

I would object to St-Pierre and Destieux. Bobby Goulet and I used to call the latter, De-Stew” - the last vintages we tried were overly ripe stewy fruits. I will never go near a bottle again.

St-Pierre. Hmm, like it in the past, then it went rogue modern. Has it dialed back?

[Comte Flaneur]

I agree Robert about St-Pierre, never had Destieux.

I must admit too I am not a fan of Stefan Von Neipperg wines like Canon La Gaffeliere fashioned by Stephane Derenoncourt, that’s why I pegged them as fourths as well. Just too modern for my liking.

[Comte Flaneur]

957526A0-DE70-4B48-BAC6-7118F1FB9682.png (47.93 KiB) Viewed 505 times

[Comte Flaneur]

Of the left bank fifths this is what I would do:

GPD - keep had a lovely 2004
Rauzan Gazzies - I hear it has improved - keep
Dufftown Vivens - keep it has improved
Desmirail - drop, though it can be nice it is really Cru bourgeois standard
Ferriere - keep, it has improved
Dauzac - likewise keep
Marquis d’Alesme Becker - drop it
Boyd-Cantenac - drop it
Labegorce - don’t know
Pouget - drop it
La Tour Carnet - keep
Marquis De Terme - drop
Siran - definitely keep
Cos Labory - drop
Croizet-Bages - drop
Pedesclaux - keep
Belgrave - drop -
Lynch-Moussas - drop
Haut-Bages Liberal - keep
Camensac - drop

All the rest were added in from Graves/Pessac and from Cru Bourgeois

Shall we drop Lanessan?

[Racer Chris]

On the basis of '12, '14, '15 vintages (the extent of my experience), I think Labegorce should be in.

[Comte Flaneur]

Izak wrote:
Le Carmes Haut Brion is definitely 2nd, Issan is too highly placed. Meyney, Haut Marbuzet and Phelan Segur should be at least moved to 4th if not to 3rd.

Count me as not a fan of Les Carmes. But I know it has developed a cult following, so I woukd accept it needs to be upgraded but I think to second is a step too far.

Judging by the vertical I did earlier this year if anything D’Issan should be upgraded not downgraded. On the back of that I went out a bought I case of the 2014 and a case of the 2010.

I think stefan suggested that GPL should be downgraded to third from second too. I am fine with that even though the 2016 is quite something.

[Comte Flaneur]

On the basis of '12, '14, '15 vintages (the extent of my experience), I think Labegorce should be in.

OK thanks Chris. You probably have had more experience with it than anyone. If anyone else has views on the 5ths please chime in.

[Racer Chris]

I don't advocate adding any Cru Bourgeois wines above 5th growth with the possible exception of Meyney.

[Nicklasss]

Other dissenting opinions

1) raise Petit Village to 3rd and Bourgneuf to 4th - Izak
2) raise Canon La Gaffeliere to 3rd - Nic
3) Raise St-Pierre to 3rd -Nic
4) Include Destieux to 5th - Nic

I would object to St-Pierre and Destieux. Bobby Goulet and I used to call the latter, De-Stew” - the last vintages we tried were overly ripe stewy fruits. I will never go near a bottle again.

St-Pierre. Hmm, like it in the past, then it went rogue modern. Has it dialed back?

You're maybe right Bobby. This is why i put on some question marks at the end of my sentences. I'm ok with no Destieux in the classification. For Saint Pierre being equal of Gloria, as Fourth Growth, well i guess this is not fair. Normally, or Saint Pierre go up one, or Gloria down one. Maybe it is the Gloria that has to move.

I would say the same for Clos Oratoire, Mondotte and Canon La Gaffelière : of course, made the same way, in a sligthly modern style, but i think it is not real to put them on the same level of classification.

By the way, i like the Pomerol no classification view that Mark pointed out, for the Médoc and Graves. In 1855, it seems demand and prices helped to make the classification. Today, it is reversed, producer want the higher classification to raise the price (namely, Chateau Angélus).

At the end, wine loving is so personnal that maybe the best way to do a new classification is that everyone here post her/his classification, and a data specialist do kind of "big data" analysis to get to the final classification result.

An example: even if i discuss with blanquito several nights and days about Lynch Bages, he will always defend that Lynch was near the First/beating some First in the 80's, and i will defend the opposite. At the end, nobodies wrong or right, because it is so related to your personnal perception, impacted by the other wines you tasted or not, the context of when you tried those Lynch, did you had perfect or medium condition bottles....

So the best BWE classification is to merge every BWEers personnal perceived classification, as one?

Nic