What is the greatest second label/vintage ever produced....

[JimHow]

I will begin the discussion....

2016 La Dame de Montrose.

Consistently great.

[OrlandoRobert]

Vieux Chateau Certan has a pretty smokin second as well

Brownie points for whomever can guess the first Chateau to have a second label!

[jckba]

I would think that the more well to do estates, ie the 1st growths might have been one of the first to bottle a deuxieme vin.

And do I get kicked off the board if I go 2001 Spain with either the Bosconia or Tondonia Reserva from Lopez de Heredia

[hautbrionlover]

I would probably pick Les Forts de Latour, although there’s not a specific vintage I’d choose.

[jal]

I would probably pick Les Forts de Latour, although there’s not a specific vintage I’d choose.

Agree on the label, the 1990 was tremendous.

I have very fond memories of the 1996 Reserve de la Comtesse, 1996 Carruades de Lafite, 1996 Clos du Marquis and the 1998 Bahans Haut Brion

[Claret]

89 Bahans Haut Brion.

[AKR]

I would probably pick Les Forts de Latour, although there’s not a specific vintage I’d choose.

Agree on the label, the 1990 was tremendous.

I have very fond memories of the 1996 Reserve de la Comtesse, 1996 Carruades de Lafite, 1996 Clos du Marquis and the 1998 Bahans Haut Brion

+1 to all the above

[jckba]

89 Bahans Haut Brion.

A couple of years back Dale brought an ‘89 Bahans Haut Brion to an end of year dinner at Mark’s house and it was just good sans plus and was thoroughly dwarfed by a checked and rebottled ‘86 Ducru Beaucaillou that was simply sublime.

I find that while second wines can occasionally be good and am drawing that inference from a side by side showing of the 2009 vs 2010 Petit Mouton that I tasted a couple of years back at a James Suckling / Zachys event @ City Winery; they also rarely represent value in my eyes. As such, I would rather put my hard earned $ to work in the first wine of an estate at whatever the price-point but, to each their own.

[AKR]

Sure nowadays that is mostly true, but there was an era when 2nds were sometimes fairly priced, and if it was a big year, very good.

Maybe its all moot now, most of my happy experiences with that category are all pretty dated now, and the producers have decided to collect a premium on those last pick barrels.

I'm thinking the 2nds I've bought in the last ten years would be Gravette de Certan, Parde de Haut Bailly, Pagodes de Cos, Dame de Montrose, Les Tourelles de Longueville, Reserve de la Comtesse, Blason d'Issan, Brio de Cantenac Brown, Lacoste Borie, Fleur de Clinet, Saint Helene, Castelnau de Suduiraut, Carmes Rieussec, Les Valloux. Wow that list is longer than I thought. Most of that would be only 1 bottle, and many of them are squirreled away, untasted.

[Comte Flaneur]

2004 Pavillon Rouge we drank at the chateau in 2015

I bought bottles and magnums of it, and it is a great wine, could easily pass for the Grand Vin

[JimHow]

Oooh yeah they was a beauty, I thought it was actually drinking better than the first label that day.

[jckba]

While I don’t doubt that you guys had a great experience with that bottle of Pavillon Rouge; let me also point out that it is also more expensive than every other Margaux except for its Grand Vin sibling and Palmer. Food for thought.

If we go back to the 2016 DdM that Jim opened up this thread with, I think that if we say that it performs at the same level or better than a specified classified growth yet costs less, then we are on our ways to uncovering some hidden value amongst the second wines.

[jal]

While I don’t doubt that you guys had a great experience with that bottle of Pavillon Rouge; let me also point out that it is also more expensive than every other Margaux except for its Grand Vin sibling and Palmer. Food for thought.

Exactly, Les Forts is now more expensive than Pichon Lalande and approaches Leoville Las Cases in price. And as Arv said, the prices of 2nd wines used to be much more affordable. I remember buying the Reserve de la Comtesse for $15 in the late 90s. This is one of the main reasons I stopped buying 2nd wines.

[Comte Flaneur]

Yes as stefan and Alex have argued over the years it is generally better to go for the first wines of lesser chateau at equivalent price points, because people are seduced by the allure of drinking a nearly-Latour or nearly-Margaux...at the same time the selections have become so rigorous these days ...like the 04 Pavillon ... you can look at it from a glass half full perspective - you are getting a glass of Ch Margaux at a substantial discount. Second wines today are different to what they were 20-30 years ago. I think the market is efficient in its pricing...we have a big auction coming up next week with quite a bit of Les Forts and Pavillon coming under the hammer. At one of these auctions MEK landed some 79 Les Forts which I thought was as good as the GV. Having said that I still think the price of Carruades is out of whack. Lafite never made the slightest bit of effort to pretend it was anything other than a second wine.

[AKR]

If anything there is a negative value effect with 2nd wines nowadays -- I see auction houses and wine lists conflate the Grand Vin's name with the 2nd to confuse neophytes. A prominent web site does this constantly, and even if one emails them about it, asking for correction/clarification, they don't fix it. I've seen the (excellent) Napanook* presented on lists as a Dominus, with a price tag that looked more like its big brother.

I cannot remember exactly where I saw it, maybe it was the book What Price Bordeaux (I put a review of that here on the forum) but it suggested that 2nds were generally priced at 1/3 of the main wine, and when that deviated that meant there was some mispricing. The strange thing is that although most deuxiemes include the estate name somewhere, not all do, which would (I think) make it harder to trade on their cachet.

* Although not from Bordeaux, Chistian Mouiex's 2nd is one of the few that I still think is worth buying.

[Racer Chris]

I'm sure at the upper end it's hard to find good value in a second wine, but with mid-tier classed growths, there are more likely to be excellent wines at very good prices in some vintages. LDdM in 2010 and 2016 are particularly good examples.
When second wines of classed growths are priced in line with Cru Bourgeois they often represent good value.
BTW, I'm not averse to second wines of Cru Bourgeois chateaux either.

[Nicklasss]

Not the greatest, but an excellent one, I'm a fan of second label of Chateau Smith Haut Lafitte, red and white.

The second label of Tour Saint Christophe that I had a few weeks ago, from the 2016 vintage, was solid too.

[JimHow]

Nice. I recall that 2014 SHL Blanc second wine that Rob brought to DC, I liked it better than the first label. I’ve never seen a wine so clear, it looked like water, but it was packed with nuanced flavor that was a perfect match with the fish at Black Salt.

[AKR]

To me the issue is the price escalation. Using Dame de Montrose as an example - In 2000 I bought 2 cases for $16/btl, and the wine was excellent. It was kitchen quaffing wine up at the cabin! By 2010, I bought a single bottle for I think $55-$60, and I'll likely give it the full treatment (decanting, good stems, some contemplative time etc.) whenever it gets opened.

As noted above, I still buy a few, maybe 1-2 per year, but its much more random opportunity (Costco or K&L deals) than affirmatively going out and looking for a good 2nd as placeholder to glug waiting on the grand vin.

==========

There's another kind of price inflation that is lurking out there too - what economists might call hedonic adjustment - in that one might get a lesser quality wine, even if the label and price appear to be the same. I see this problem in regions which have good wines, made with old vines, that once were great age worthy values. Producers start redirecting the old vine grapes that built the reputation to other (higher priced) efforts, or even simply sell them off, and keep the label going, now stocked with bought in, lesser grapes. I guess its a touchy subject, but when people taste something and think: wow this is nothing like what it used to be 15 years ago, that business practice is a potential culprit. At least in Bordeaux, this is less of an issue given the controls INAO has, as well as the protections AOC might provide. But in the new world....anything can happen.

[JoelD]

I had the 2010 la dame on sunday. And while I enjoyed it, I don't think the value was there. At least not at its current tariffs. The 2016 might be better, but it was still a baby and didn't strut its stuff for me until 2-3 hours in decanter.

I've had better experiences, especially for the price with the gravette de certan, and the petite eglise. Also I enjoy moulin riche(which isn't technically a second label)

I also generally subscribe to drinking the grand vin from cheaper chateau's instead. There are so many in that $30-$50 range that are awesome.

[Racer Chris]

I had the 2010 la dame on sunday. And while I enjoyed it, I don't think the value was there. At least not at its current tariffs.

2010s in general are expensive. They were on release and are more so now.
I don''t think now is a good time to drink most 2010s.

[Ianjaig]

I've always thought Marquis de Calon (or Le Marquis de Calon Ségur as it is now called) offers great value - although its price does seem to be on the rise. The 09 in particular was pretty special for a second wine.

[Racer Chris]

I've always thought Marquis de Calon (or Le Marquis de Calon Ségur as it is now called) offers great value - although its price does seem to be on the rise. The 09 in particular was pretty special for a second wine.

I have 3 bottles remaining of the 2016 Marquis, for which I paid only $30 each. A very good value for an excellent wine.
I also thought my 2 bottles of 2014 Sarget de Gruaud Larose represented an excellent value at $26 in 2019. I would have purchased a case if it was readily available to me at the time.

[Antoine]

Only second best I have are Dame de Montose 2005 and Blason d'Issan 2005... very good wines but Can't compare to the 1st wines...
Try to abide by Churchill's tastes "I have simple tastes, I love the best"

[Musigny 151]

Lots of love for second wines. One of the tastings I have been planning post Covid is the second wine of the first growths against the Grand Vin of an estate available at the same price or lower.

So


Forts de Latour versus Las Cases and GPL
Carruades de Lafite versus Ducru and Pichon Baron
Petit Mouton versus Lynch Bages and Pichon Lalande
Pavilion Rouge versus Rauzan Segla and Giscours
Etc

As it is blind, we might even want to throw in the actual first growth.
Anybody care to guess the winners?

[Musigny 151]

I had the 2010 la dame on sunday. And while I enjoyed it, I don't think the value was there. At least not at its current tariffs.

2010s in general are expensive. They were on release and are more so now.
I don''t think now is a good time to drink most 2010s.

The best second wine I tasted in 2010 (and it wasn’t close) was the Alter Ego of Palmer. Never really rated it before nor since, but an astonishing wine in 2010.

[Nicklasss]

Lots of love for second wines. One of the tastings I have been planning post Covid is the second wine of the first growths against the Grand Vin of an estate available at the same price or lower.

So


Forts de Latour versus Las Cases and GPL
Carruades de Lafite versus Ducru and Pichon Baron
Petit Mouton versus Lynch Bages and Pichon Lalande
Pavilion Rouge versus Rauzan Segla and Giscours
Etc

As it is blind, we might even want to throw in the actual first growth.
Anybody care to guess the winners?

That will surely be an interesting tasting. Hard to guess what will happen as it will be blind... maybe Forts de Latour can create some surprises, but who knows about the other second labels. I will surely read your report with great interest.

[gene m.]

I have 90, 96, 98 and 00 les forts and will bring the 96 to our sac wine group end of month

I have the 95 and 96 pavilion rouge which I have tasted against the 1st and they were dwarfed but as good as a segla

The 89 bahans is very good as was the lynch avernous

Years ago I did 8 of the seconds from 85/89 and consensus was for the bahans haute brion

My personal favorites have been 90 and 00 les forts followed by 95 pavilion rouge

[AKR]

I just saw that Lalande Borie has been rebranded this vintage...to Petit Ducru to better monetize their linkage/association/vinification with D-B.

It's like the MBA cadre have been unleashed.

Bud Dry. Bud Lime. Bud Light.

oi vay.

Gene - I will send out a note again - i have been negligent!

[jal]

Lots of love for second wines. One of the tastings I have been planning post Covid is the second wine of the first growths against the Grand Vin of an estate available at the same price or lower.

So


Forts de Latour versus Las Cases and GPL
Carruades de Lafite versus Ducru and Pichon Baron
Petit Mouton versus Lynch Bages and Pichon Lalande
Pavilion Rouge versus Rauzan Segla and Giscours
Etc

As it is blind, we might even want to throw in the actual first growth.
Anybody care to guess the winners?

Depends on the vintage; imo, the older one goes, the worse the 2nd wines will show vs their price equivalent estate.
I will guess based on limited information:
Les Forts
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Giscours

Will be fascinating

[Blanquito]

The best second wine I’ve had was the 1990 Dame de Montrose. I liked the 89 Bahans and the 96 Reserve de la Comtesse a lot too, but overall most second wines have been a big letdown given the pricing.