Time to start thinking about the 2021 BWE Wine of the Year...

[Comte Flaneur]

Ooff!

[JimHow]

Ah yes those were the days, '70s rockers we Howaniec boys were....

https://www.queenconcerts.com/detail/li ... 2%3B%7D%7D

https://wblm.com/todays-blimp-time-hop- ... ppearance/

[marcs]

Ok, i'll go out of track a little bit. What about the 1996 Ducru Beaucaillou? Some had it here in 2021 and i can't find any negative about it.

I had a bottle with JeanFred this years, and thougth it was great, besting the 2005 Haut Bailly, that was also something...

The 96 Ducru is exceptional. I’d still do the VCC as it is a more current release. It is better than the 2014 Conseillante, which is actually damn good despite Rolland. I personally would not reward a Chateau that hires him.

Stop the Rolland madness. Just taste the wine

[OrlandoRobert]

Ok, i'll go out of track a little bit. What about the 1996 Ducru Beaucaillou? Some had it here in 2021 and i can't find any negative about it.

I had a bottle with JeanFred this years, and thougth it was great, besting the 2005 Haut Bailly, that was also something...

The 96 Ducru is exceptional. I’d still do the VCC as it is a more current release. It is better than the 2014 Conseillante, which is actually damn good despite Rolland. I personally would not reward a Chateau that hires him.

Stop the Rolland madness. Just taste the wine

I have, hence the assessment of VCC being better.

This may surprise you, but I’ve easily had well over 100 bottles of Rolland-made Bordeaux. Heck, had some Ovid a week ago.

It is rank opinion I express, of course, but grounded in something. Not abstract.

If you like his stuff, more power to you, you have a bigger ocean from which to fish.

[marcs]

I'm just saying that the desire to "punish" Conseillante for throwing some money Rolland's way seems more like an abstract political vendetta of some sort than responsive to the wine, since we all seem to agree that the 2014 Conseillante is not in fact a "Rolland-ized" wine.

Rolland himself seems to have become a symbol for something much larger than he is.

[OrlandoRobert]

I'm just saying that the desire to "punish" Conseillante for throwing some money Rolland's way seems more like an abstract political vendetta of some sort than responsive to the wine, since we all seem to agree that the 2014 Conseillante is not in fact a "Rolland-ized" wine.

Rolland himself seems to have become a symbol for something much larger than he is.

Indeed it is, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Rolland is much larger, and his influence far more palpable, than you suggest. It think he is everything that is wrong right now about Bordeaux. While my “vendetta” against him is a fraction of a drop in a bucket, it is my money. I think the 2014 vintage saved the wine, but I bet you will notice a major difference in vintages like 2015 and 2018. I’ve had enough of these modern concoctions to know that the ripper the year, the worse the wine is. It is irrelevant to me if he produces a decent Conseillante in the future, I will not support it. In the spirit of honesty and transparency, I did buy 2015 and 2016 Figeac, minimal quantities. More of a creature of curiosity than anything else, given my 25+ year love affair with this once-wonderful winery.

[marcs]

I'm just saying that the desire to "punish" Conseillante for throwing some money Rolland's way seems more like an abstract political vendetta of some sort than responsive to the wine, since we all seem to agree that the 2014 Conseillante is not in fact a "Rolland-ized" wine.

Rolland himself seems to have become a symbol for something much larger than he is.

Indeed it is, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Rolland is much larger, and his influence far more palpable, than you suggest. It think he is everything that is wrong right now about Bordeaux. While my “vendetta” against him is a fraction of a drop in a bucket, it is my money. I think the 2014 vintage saved the wine, but I bet you will notice a major difference in vintages like 2015 and 2018. I’ve had enough of these modern concoctions to know that the ripper the year, the worse the wine is. It is irrelevant to me if he produces a decent Conseillante in the future, I will not support it. In the spirit of honesty and transparency, I did buy 2015 and 2016 Figeac, minimal quantities. More of a creature of curiosity than anything else, given my 25+ year love affair with this once-wonderful winery.

Well, Marielle Cazaux is the winemaker and I don’t think she’s just his assistant. I have some 2015 and 2017 Conseillante (my resolve to stop in 2016 slipped just *slightly* lol) and I will report back to the board on my perception of Rolland-ization.

Can I ask what your impression of the 2015 Figeac was? I would think they would be more resistant to spoofilation because of the high degree of cab sauv

BTW I see spoofilation spreading everywhere in Bordeaux regardless of Rolland. I was shocked to see that Chateau Montrose, of all places, put up something like 14.8% (!) alcohol in 2018 and 14.5 in 2019. I believe their previous all time high was 13.7 in 2009.

[OrlandoRobert]

I'm just saying that the desire to "punish" Conseillante for throwing some money Rolland's way seems more like an abstract political vendetta of some sort than responsive to the wine, since we all seem to agree that the 2014 Conseillante is not in fact a "Rolland-ized" wine.

Rolland himself seems to have become a symbol for something much larger than he is.

Indeed it is, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Rolland is much larger, and his influence far more palpable, than you suggest. It think he is everything that is wrong right now about Bordeaux. While my “vendetta” against him is a fraction of a drop in a bucket, it is my money. I think the 2014 vintage saved the wine, but I bet you will notice a major difference in vintages like 2015 and 2018. I’ve had enough of these modern concoctions to know that the ripper the year, the worse the wine is. It is irrelevant to me if he produces a decent Conseillante in the future, I will not support it. In the spirit of honesty and transparency, I did buy 2015 and 2016 Figeac, minimal quantities. More of a creature of curiosity than anything else, given my 25+ year love affair with this once-wonderful winery.

Well, Marielle Cazaux is the winemaker and I don’t think she’s just his assistant. I have some 2015 and 2017 Conseillante (my resolve to stop in 2016 slipped just *slightly* lol) and I will report back to the board on my perception of Rolland-ization.

Can I ask what your impression of the 2015 Figeac was? I would think they would be more resistant to spoofilation because of the high degree of cab sauv

BTW I see spoofilation spreading everywhere in Bordeaux regardless of Rolland. I was shocked to see that Chateau Montrose, of all places, put up something like 14.8% (!) alcohol in 2018 and 14.5 in 2019. I believe their previous all time high was 13.7 in 2009.

Yea man, seems like this is the struggle, we appear to have some climate warming, more selective picking of grapes, perhaps some later harvesting at estates, and then this proliferation of modern consultants across the board. I stay pretty attuned to who is using what consultants, vintage climate and ABV, to avoid what I do not want in Bordeaux, which is overly-ripe, glossy fruit and higher ABV. Unfortunately, many of the critics swoon over this stuff, scores go stratospheric, other estates decide to follow that mold, and voila, we have less and less classic states. I mean really, classic estates like Figeac and Conseillante flipping to the the modern is quite troubling to me. I have not tried the 2015 Figeac, at that price point I’m holding on until theoretically ready. I did have a 2015 Canon this weekend, did not like it at all. Had a 2007 Magdelaine as well, total yum, classic. I realize I could be an extreme minority here. Curious about 2017. I did buy some Les Carmes Haut Brion, and through the grace of a client, a 2017 Le Pin. I doubt I buy any others, maybe VCC.

[Dionysus]

Continuing the 2014 theme, how about the entirely more modest D'Armailhac?

Or for a protest vote, not that I think one is needed, the 2019 Château Thivin Côtes de Brouilly?

[Dionysus]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

[Racer Chris]

It seems typical to choose a wine from 3 vintages prior. In that vein I nominate the 2018 Domaine de Chevalier.
Clocking in at 96-97 points and still available for under $100. (only 13.5%abv)

[Blanquito]

Marcus makes good points, but still, on some level, I have to ask myself: why hire Rolland, or someone of his ilk, if you aren’t trying to ramp up the ripeness, the smoothness, the glossiness, the early “drinkability”, the spoof? Especially at a famous estate with a 70-80+ years of success.

Certainly, how far you take this can depend on many things and Rolland isn’t a monolith. But all the chateau that I’ve followed who hired Rolland have noticeably changed their style (for the worse for my palate), while they all still protest that Rolland is just there to “help in the vineyard” (come on, when was the last time Rolland was actually doing any work in a vineyard!), that they are still firmly in charge. Rolland is presumably the most expensive enologist on the planet — I doubt he is paid to be ignored… the magician is paid to do his magic and make the wine press sit, shake and roll over (from a business standpoint, Rolland is probably worth every penny and then some).

As I’ve chronicled before, Pontet Canet is the poster child for this pattern. I know many of you still love Alfred’s wine, but he totally lost the thread for my palate.*

*the usual caveats apply, and I stopped tasting P-C after the 2010 vintage, so things may have been dialed back since then.

[OrlandoRobert]

Marcus makes good points, but still, on some level, I have to ask myself: why hire Rolland, or someone of his ilk, if you aren’t trying to ramp up the ripeness, the smoothness, the glossiness, the early “drinkability”, the spoof? Especially at a famous estate with a 70-80+ years of success.

Certainly, how far you take this can depend on many things and Rolland isn’t a monolith. But all the chateau that I’ve followed who hired Rolland have noticeably changed their style (for the worse for my palate), while they all still protest that Rolland is just there to “help in the vineyard” (come on, when was the last time Rolland was actually doing any work in a vineyard!), that they are still firmly in charge. Rolland is presumably the most expensive enologist on the planet — I doubt he is paid to be ignored… the magician is paid to do his magic and make the wine press sit, shake and roll over (from a business standpoint, Rolland is probably worth every penny and then some).

As I’ve chronicled before, Pontet Canet is the poster child for this pattern. I know many of you still love Alfred’s wine, but he totally lost the thread for my palate.*

*the usual caveats apply, and I stopped tasting P-C after the 2010 vintage, so things may have been dialed back since then.

Hire him, and boom, points explosion. Look t Leve’s scores on both estates, you can see what happens when the modernist consultants engage.

[OrlandoRobert]

It seems typical to choose a wine from 3 vintages prior. In that vein I nominate the 2018 Domaine de Chevalier.
Clocking in at 96-97 points and still available for under $100. (only 13.5%abv)

I like that approach as it keeps the annual list more contemporary, and gives folks a better chance to go find some to buy.

[Harry C.]

Jim H. "I am kind and benevolent."
Harry C, "and Humble!"

[JimHow]

Lol… Jimmy L.B. How and I are two different personas!

[Harry C.]

OrlandoBob. I do not have major skin in this game, but showing the last 5 years in Bordeaux of a couple of wines to "prove" a point is faulty. 2015-2020 have been very good to great in Bordeaux with global warming showing its presence. Do this for all the classed growths likely show an up trend.

[Nicklasss]

Ok, i'll go out of track a little bit. What about the 1996 Ducru Beaucaillou? Some had it here in 2021 and i can't find any negative about it.

I had a bottle with JeanFred this years, and thougth it was great, besting the 2005 Haut Bailly, that was also something...

The 96 Ducru is exceptional. I’d still do the VCC as it is a more current release. It is better than the 2014 Conseillante, which is actually damn good despite Rolland. I personally would not reward a Chateau that hires him.

Stop the Rolland madness. Just taste the wine

I agree. Just try a Caymus regular or SS cabernet sauvignon, and tell me after what you think about Rolland wines...

[Nicklasss]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

Not as grotesque as it seems. Good proposal Dionysos. Why losing our time with the 2014 Conseillante or VCC when two "respected" very different palates here liked that wine, Jal and JimHow... even Comte Flaneur and blanquito preferred the 2010 Troplong Mondot over the 2015 Corbin, and liked the 15.8 % alcohol Saint Émilion almost equally to the 1983 Ducru Beaucaillou...

[OrlandoRobert]

OrlandoBob. I do not have major skin in this game, but showing the last 5 years in Bordeaux of a couple of wines to "prove" a point is faulty. 2015-2020 have been very good to great in Bordeaux with global warming showing its presence. Do this for all the classed growths likely show an up trend.

Wasn’t there recently a thread on the higher ABVs in Haut Brion and La Mish?

Just to be clear, I only brought these five years up as a point of the discussion, as this is right after Rolland got involved with Figeac and Conseillante. I concluded that these modern Bordeaux are not to my liking well before. This modernist trend started well before. Amazing even how many 2005 Bordeaux were marred for my palate. St Em was a mess, as were a handful of left banks, including Pape Clement, Leoville Poyferre and Lascombes. The 09/10 wines, same thing.

I would not call 2015 and 2018 great. No way. Now 2014 and 2016 for sure!

Sorry I caused this thread drift, my apologies.

[Comte Flaneur]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

Not as grotesque as it seems. Good proposal Dionysos. Why losing our time with the 2014 Conseillante or VCC when two "respected" very different palates here liked that wine, Jal and JimHow... even Comte Flaneur and blanquito preferred the 2010 Troplong Mondot over the 2015 Corbin, and liked the 15.8 % alcohol Saint Émilion almost equally to the 1983 Ducru Beaucaillou...

Ahem!

The 2010 Troplong Mondot was mediocrity personified. I thought it was Pavie Macquin from a ripe year: or something of similar ilk. Qualitatively much preferred the 1983 Ducru. Patrick would you agree?

2015 Corbin was disappointing.I was driving that day so I only had one small glass…I have a 2014 Corbin in my wine fridge, I will report back, but I suspect we overestimated this estate and were too seduced by the Nordic charms of the proprietor? Someone who produces ok but not great wines…and employs Michel Rolland as a consultant - but only one of MR’s lackeys shows up…Howard S back me up on this….

Finally a 98 point rating for 2015 La C is a joke.

And DDC rouge? Forget it. It has been making spoofy wines since 2002.

[JimHow]

I would not call 2015 and 2018 great. No way. Now 2014 and 2016 for sure!

Amen, my brother. 2014 and 2016 are brilliant. Honestly, if you look at the notes here and elsewhere, you almost never find anything other than enthusiasm when someone has just tasted a 2014... on both the left AND right banks.
At one point when I was discussing Sociando with Joel the other day I was going to say that the 2014 Sociando is even better than the 2016, but I stopped myself, they are both great, if styled differently.

[Nicklasss]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

Not as grotesque as it seems. Good proposal Dionysos. Why losing our time with the 2014 Conseillante or VCC when two "respected" very different palates here liked that wine, Jal and JimHow... even Comte Flaneur and blanquito preferred the 2010 Troplong Mondot over the 2015 Corbin, and liked the 15.8 % alcohol Saint Émilion almost equally to the 1983 Ducru Beaucaillou...

Ahem!

The 2010 Troplong Mondot was mediocrity personified. I thought it was Pavie Macquin from a ripe year: or something of similar ilk. Qualitatively much preferred the 1983 Ducru. Patrick would you agree?

2015 Corbin was disappointing.I was driving that day so I only had one small glass…I have a 2014 Corbin in my wine fridge, I will report back, but I suspect we overestimated this estate and were too seduced by the Nordic charms of the proprietor? Someone who produces ok but not great wines…and employs Michel Rolland as a consultant - but only one of MR’s lackeys shows up…Howard S back me up on this….

Finally a 98 point rating for 2015 La C is a joke.

And DDC rouge? Forget it. It has been making spoofy wines since 2002.

"Who loves well, chatises as well".

[Musigny 151]

No question which wine I would vote for. 2014 VCC is an utterly profound bottle of wine, the best of the vintage and can take its place among the greatest Pomerols of the last twenty years. I have more bottles of this than any other wine in my cellar, and went through a case before it went into its shell recently, and there is nothing to suggest that when it re-emerges, it will not be as special as when I first tasted it.

That is not to say La Conseillante 2014 isn’t a very good wine. It is excellent, an old school Pomerol that expresses beautifully it’s terroir. I saw some at MacArthurs in DC for around $115 a bottle. Definitely a steal at the price. But it remains second tier, while recent vintages of VCC challenge and often beat Petrus and Lafleur. at the very top of the hierarchy.

I also have a soft spot for Ducru 1996. A classic Cabernet vintage which suited Ducru perfectly. And as far as superseconds go, it is well priced, although Borie is beginning to feel his oats and increase the price. But then so is VCC. Gone are the days when I could pick up a case or two of 2014 VCC from Total from $125 to $150.

So I would argue that VCC is a very strong choice for wine of the year. Any wine that betters Petrus, Lafleur and Trotanoy in a good vintage would get my vote.

[AKR]

Maybe we need to change the name of the website to 'The 17 Estates left for Bordeaux Wine Enthusiast Puritanism'

[Blanquito]

I bought a bunch of DDC Rouge in 04-09, and boy do I regret it. Not “bad” wines like a Caymus, but glossy and dull as ditch water and tasting little like the wine I used to love from there…

Look, for those of us who feel like the bordelais cracked the code in the 80s, we can try and defend modern bordeaux, out of politeness or trying to see the glass half full or because we have little alternative, but at the end of the day even if these wines don’t suck, they are a hollowed out caricature (with some notable exceptions) of what bordeaux used to readily and widely attain. Inch by inch, consultant by consultant, Bordeaux — and probably the wine world in general — traded it soul for points and money and year-to-year consistency and early drinkability, and I can’t defend it even a little.

If you prefer this internationalized style of wine at estates like DDC or SHL or Canon to what bordeaux make before 2003 (or 1991, even more so), you are lucky and more power to you. But I can’t do it, I can’t say that in the final analysis that the 2010 Troplong Mondot had any redeeming qualities, even if it disguised its alcohol well and didn’t spontaneously combust before our very eyes, it is on many levels was, despite its quaffability, an embarrassment and a travesty. If wine was worth get pissed off about, I’d be hopping mad.

Look at what they’ve done! I’m a grumpy old man howling about the way things used to be.

[Blanquito]

Thank god for Pomerol. We’ll always have Pomerol (he says, eyes dreamy).

[Dionysus]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

Not as grotesque as it seems. Good proposal Dionysos. Why losing our time with the 2014 Conseillante or VCC when two "respected" very different palates here liked that wine, Jal and JimHow... even Comte Flaneur and blanquito preferred the 2010 Troplong Mondot over the 2015 Corbin, and liked the 15.8 % alcohol Saint Émilion almost equally to the 1983 Ducru Beaucaillou...

Grossly Grotesque was in jest...Gargantuan would be more appropriate

[JoelD]

Oh or how about something more divisive...clocking in at a grossly grotesque 15.8%, the 2010 Troplong Mondot!!!

Just for the record, my bottle says 16.2%. Is that even legal in Bordeaux?

For some reason, I have 3 of these bottles. I doubt i'll open one but curiosity might get the better of me at some point.

2014 VCC sounds like a good wine of the year, we've talked about it a lot. Well mostly Musigny bringing it up every chance he gets, but it was clearly revived when Comte and Blanquito loved it on their recent hedonistic excursion.

I will say this, if those 3 all agree and love a wine, damn good chance I and most BWE'ers will as well.

[JimHow]

Mmmm Jacques and Jill brought that 2010 Troplong Mondot up to the back deck, they picked it up in the tax free Granite State, we had it alongside the 2001 Lafite, and La Pie de la Whoopee, it was glorious! Like Robert M. Parker Jr., we loved both the classic 2001 Lafite AND the big bad 16+% 2010 Troplong!

[OrlandoRobert]

I bought a bunch of DDC Rouge in 04-09, and boy do I regret it. Not “bad” wines like a Caymus, but glossy and dull as ditch water and tasting little like the wine I used to love from there…

Look, for those of us who feel like the bordelais cracked the code in the 80s, we can try and defend modern bordeaux, out of politeness or trying to see the glass half full or because we have little alternative, but at the end of the day even if these wines don’t suck, they are a hollowed out caricature (with some notable exceptions) of what bordeaux used to readily and widely attain. Inch by inch, consultant by consultant, Bordeaux — and probably the wine world in general — traded it soul for points and money and year-to-year consistency and early drinkability, and I can’t defend it even a little.

If you prefer this internationalized style of wine at estates like DDC or SHL or Canon to what bordeaux make before 2003 (or 1991, even more so), you are lucky and more power to you. But I can’t do it, I can’t say that in the final analysis that the 2010 Troplong Mondot had any redeeming qualities, even if it disguised its alcohol well and didn’t spontaneously combust before our very eyes, it is on many levels was, despite its quaffability, an embarrassment and a travesty. If wine was worth get pissed off about, I’d be hopping mad.

Look at what they’ve done! I’m a grumpy old man howling about the way things used to be.

My gosh, I’m amped on meds after a boating accident, read this, I would have swore I wrote it! Pat is like the twin I never met. Of course, I came out first, got mom’s good looks, and was the favorite child.

[JimHow]

What? What happened! Are you ok.

[Nicklasss]

As a general comment, it is funny how people that doesn't ever made a single bottle of wine, if so, surely not in Bordeaux area, and that are BWE, are writing that Olivier Bernard managing Domaine de Chevalier since 1983 and probably involved in the winemaking since then, is making kinda dull wines since many vintages... when i'm sure that if i ask Mr. Bernard himself, he always thought about making his wine the same way, with the same philosophy, adding a bit of technology (as today you can't still do Bordeaux wines like in 1960 or 1980) and making the best classical Bordeaux wines as possible.

And want it or not, VCC is the same, as is Magdelaine, as is Lafite as is...

[OrlandoRobert]

What? What happened! Are you ok.

Lol, I was a dork!

Fractured my L1 vertebrae and bruised lower left ribs yesterday while engaged in the inherently dangerous extreme sport of fishing!

After I caught this beauty!

[JimHow]

Wow!!!!
Sounds painful, but an amazing picture!
Get well my friend, with a fine northern Medoc... or any other left or right bank Bordeaux, for that matter!

[AKR]

Thank god for Pomerol. We’ll always have Pomerol (he says, eyes dreamy).

Yes, there is even wine being made there that isn't from Petrus, l'Evangile, VCC etc!

It's just harder to find, and there isn't any flashy score to give comfort when purchasing.

And one will get acerbic comments on all the mediocre estates in the AOC....

[Racer Chris]

As a general comment, it is funny how people that doesn't ever made a single bottle of wine, if so, surely not in Bordeaux area, and that are BWE, are writing that Olivier Bernard managing Domaine de Chevalier since 1983 and probably involved in the manemaking since then, is making kinda dull wines since many vintages... when i'm sure that if i ask Mr. Bernard himself, he always thought about making his wine the same way, with the same philosophy, adding a bit of technology (as today you can't still do Bordeaux wines like in 1960 or 1980) and making the best classical Bordeaux wines as possible.

And want it or not, VCC is the same, as is Magdelaine, as is Lafite as is...

If Michel Rolland spits in the vineyard, the wine ends up with higher alcohol.

[OrlandoRobert]

As a general comment, it is funny how people that doesn't ever made a single bottle of wine, if so, surely not in Bordeaux area, and that are BWE, are writing that Olivier Bernard managing Domaine de Chevalier since 1983 and probably involved in the manemaking since then, is making kinda dull wines since many vintages... when i'm sure that if i ask Mr. Bernard himself, he always thought about making his wine the same way, with the same philosophy, adding a bit of technology (as today you can't still do Bordeaux wines like in 1960 or 1980) and making the best classical Bordeaux wines as possible.

And want it or not, VCC is the same, as is Magdelaine, as is Lafite as is...

If Michel Rolland spits in the vineyard, the wine ends up with higher alcohol.

When he pisses, we get Troplong!

[JoelD]

As a general comment, it is funny how people that doesn't ever made a single bottle of wine, if so, surely not in Bordeaux area, and that are BWE, are writing that Olivier Bernard managing Domaine de Chevalier since 1983 and probably involved in the manemaking since then, is making kinda dull wines since many vintages... when i'm sure that if i ask Mr. Bernard himself, he always thought about making his wine the same way, with the same philosophy, adding a bit of technology (as today you can't still do Bordeaux wines like in 1960 or 1980) and making the best classical Bordeaux wines as possible.

And want it or not, VCC is the same, as is Magdelaine, as is Lafite as is...

If Michel Rolland spits in the vineyard, the wine ends up with higher alcohol.

When he pisses, we get Troplong!

Guys, I thought we already established, he doesn't actually set foot in the vineyards...

But he can probably do both of those from miles away and still make an impact.

[Racer Chris]

I was being facetious Joel. The only way I know Michel Rolland has been at work anywhere is by reading about it on this forum or on Berserkers.