The 2014 Vieux Chateau Certan has been uncorked....

[JimHow]

Still a little cool but getting closer to room temperature, it came off the UPS truck at about 2pm this afternoon....

[JimHow]

I pretty much had to drink this wine tonight.
I don't drink on weekends, Thursday night is my big drinking night.
This coming Tuesday we have a conference with the Alaska judge, where final decisions will be made as to whether we are actually proceeding with the trial in January.
If it is a GO, I will be in a fast from alcohol (maybe a sip or two on Christmas Eve) for the rest of December, and until the end of the Alaska trial, likely to extend into at least mid-February.
Yeah... it sucks to be me, no fine northern Medoc until March.

[marcs]

The suspense is incredible! 2021 BWE WOTY is at stake! My money is on the Conseillante!

[JoelD]

If it sucks, we're blaming the bottle shock from transport today! Hoping it's great though

[JimHow]

I have now fully tasted both the 2014 La Conseillante and the 2014 Vieux Chateau Certan....

[OrlandoRobert]

Oh no…..

Drum roll…..

My bet is that Jimbo dances with La Conseillante, which in French, means “The Concubine”.

[Blanquito]

Oh no…..

Drum roll…..

My bet is that Jimbo dances with La Conseillante, which in French, means “The Concubine”.

Huh, and I always thought it meant “The Cucumber”.

[JimHow]

There will be no election results tonight, I’m going to bed.

[OrlandoRobert]

There will be no election results tonight, I’m going to bed.

Concubines can be exhausting.

[Nicklasss]

There will be no election results tonight, I’m going to bed.

We like your devotion BD. A night to think about it, maybe that was missing after you had the 2016 Lynch.

[JimHow]

I'm still deciding, the morning after....

[marcs]

I'm still deciding, the morning after....

I think you need to try another bottle of Conseillante to decide.

In my experience, Conseillante is generally more enjoyable than VCC, as it has a gentler, more subtle, and more feminine style, while VCC can be more "impressive" and distinctive. That is to some degree down to palate preference however.

[JimHow]

I only have one bottle of each left.
I'm kind of kicking myself, we should have done a blind tasting of the two side by side.
They are both 97 point wines, great in different ways.

[marcs]

If they are both equally good, Conseillante cost less on release.

[OrlandoRobert]

I'm still deciding, the morning after....

I think you need to try another bottle of Conseillante to decide.

In my experience, Conseillante is generally more enjoyable than VCC, as it has a gentler, more subtle, and more feminine style, while VCC can be more "impressive" and distinctive. That is to some degree down to palate preference however.

I generally prefer VCC but think this is a really solid assessment

[Musigny 151]

There are no recent vintages post 2000 where I prefer the La Conseillante. But then I am a sucker for the kind of terroir detail which VCC has in spades. Not that there is anything wrong with La Conseillante; for me it does not belong in the top echelon of Pomerol.

I am reluctant to taste the 2014s together now, as I have found the VCC is a little closed, and the quality has to be coaxed out of it. Another five years I will open it side by side with the Conseillante and Trotanoy.

[JimHow]

VCC was clearly the more "substantial" wine, La Conseillante was more pulchritudinous.

[marcs]

On the topic of who belongs in the top rank of Pomerol, I would remind people that on Thursday night at our DC dinner we lined up the 1982, 2001, 2011, and 2015 VCC against the 1990, 2000, and 2010 Conseillante and Conseillante won the overall crown fairly decisively I thought. Granted those are good vintages for Conseillante but 1982 and 2015 are no slouch as far as vintages go for VCC. 2001 is good too.

[marcs]

And yes, Conseillante is pulchritudinous, but not in any simple, shallow extraction-driven way. The terroir allows a very pretty lightness and subtlety for its feminine charms. And it has a beautiful blackberry quality to its dark fruit that is quite far from the ponderous overripe plum/pruney element you get in overripe right bankers

[marcs]

I feel like in this thread I am the lawyer/advocate and Jim gets to be the judge

[Musigny 151]

And yes, Conseillante is pulchritudinous, but not in any simple, shallow extraction-driven way. The terroir allows a very pretty lightness and subtlety for its feminine charms. And it has a beautiful blackberry quality to its dark fruit that is quite far from the ponderous overripe plum/pruney element you get in overripe right bankers

I agree Conseillante is not simple. I was talking relative to VC rather than in absolute terms.

In no way do I think of Conseillante as a spoofalated fruit bomb, at least as of the last vintage I tasted, 2014. Not sure what has happened since.

[DavidG]

Between VCC and Conseillante? There’s no wrong decision here.

Jim could even choose both.

[Blanquito]

This seems like the least exciting 97 pt wine in history! (I expect the heavens to part for 97 pts).

Give us the scoop, BD! Did you love it like Ian, Alex and I did in Pomerol? Or like Mark and others have been saying for a while now?

Or was it a ho- hum 97 pointer?!

[robert goulet]

Did I miss the tasting note?

[JimHow]

When I first uncorked this wine and tasted the first couple of sips, I said to myself, "This is the 2021 BWE Wine of the Year."
It is a wine of great nuance and complexity. As I was sipping it, I thought, wow, what is the difference between a $200 bottle of wine and a $20 bottle of wine. Sometimes, for a big northern Medoc like Mouton, the answer is obvious. For other wines, it is a bit more subtle. It may only be a 5% difference, but in that 5% can be discovered the wonders of the universe.
Thus, wines like VCC and La Conseillante on the right bank, Lafite and others on the left.
There is no question that the VCC is the richer, more substantial, fuller bodied effort, with great complexity.
Interestingly, it didn't seem to evolve as the night went along.
Perhaps it was uncorked just a little too cool, or perhaps it was bottle shocked from its journey from Saratoga, or perhaps, because it is a little bigger than La Conseillante, it is just in a bit of an awkward state.
But this is what I was talking about in the 2016 Lynch discussion with Ian....
Yes, of course, I know that these wines close down.
But even though this 2014 VCC was perhaps in a bit of a closed phase (I popped and poured), I was able to identify its depth as a magnificent purple beauty, I completely get the orgasmic accolades from you, Patrick, Ian, and Mark. This wine is immense. It merits a 97 point rating....

On the other hand....
I remember that night I uncorked the 2014 La Conseillante and reported contemporaneous notes.
At first, it was quite closed. nothing at all on the nose, and very little on the palate.
I almost wondered whether it was damaged.
But that damned wine just kept sneaking up on me....
No, "pulchritudinous" is not the appropriate descriptor.
The 2014 La Conseillante was not big and busty, round and voluptuous.
It was elegant, sensual, it kissed you softly at first, then jumped atop and fucked your brains out at the end.
I don't want to be overdramatic here, but the 2014 La Conseillante that night was truly a very sensual experience.
It just completely snuck up on me, and by the end I was in ecstasy.

I didn't quite reach that with the '14 VCC last night.
But... Does that mean 14 La Conseillante is better than its VCC counterpart?
Not necessarily.
Conseillante is drinking better. But is it a better drink than VCC?
They are both brilliant.

And then there are Marcus's arguments, some of which are compelling.
Conseillante is less expensive, etc. It seems to me we see more discussion here about Conseillante than VCC.

On the other hand, in DC I actually enjoyed the VCCs at least as much, if not more than the epic-vintage Conseillantes we had.
I just thought those VCCs were so fun, interesting, compelling, even the crazy 2015, which I actually ended up loving in all of its Jeff Leve insanity....

I'm really torn!

They are both stunning wines.
I'm not inclined to pick both, David, I think we need to choose one.

We still have a little more time to think about it before New Years Eve....

[OrlandoRobert]

When I first uncorked this wine and tasted the first couple of sips, I said to myself, "This is the 2021 BWE Wine of the Year."
It is a wine of great nuance and complexity. As I was sipping it, I thought, wow, what is the difference between a $200 bottle of wine and a $20 bottle of wine. Sometimes, for a big northern Medoc like Mouton, the answer is obvious. For other wines, it is a bit more subtle. It may only be a 5% difference, but in that 5% can be discovered the wonders of the universe.
Thus, wines like VCC and La Conseillante on the right bank, Lafite and others on the left.
There is no question that the VCC is the richer, more substantial, fuller bodied effort, with great complexity.
Interestingly, it didn't seem to evolve as the night went along.
Perhaps it was uncorked just a little too cool, or perhaps it was bottle shocked from its journey from Saratoga, or perhaps, because it is a little bigger than La Conseillante, it is just in a bit of an awkward state.
But this is what I was talking about in the 2016 Lynch discussion with Ian....
Yes, of course, I know that these wines close down.
But even though this 2014 VCC was perhaps in a bit of a closed phase (I popped and poured), I was able to identify its depth as a magnificent purple beauty, I completely get the orgasmic accolades from you, Patrick, Ian, and Mark. This wine is immense. It merits a 97 point rating....

On the other hand....
I remember that night I uncorked the 2014 La Conseillante and reported contemporaneous notes.
At first, it was quite closed. nothing at all on the nose, and very little on the palate.
I almost wondered whether it was damaged.
But that damned wine just kept sneaking up on me....
No, "pulchritudinous" is not the appropriate descriptor.
The 2014 La Conseillante was not big and busty, round and voluptuous.
It was elegant, sensual, it kissed you softly at first, then jumped atop and fucked your brains out at the end.
I don't want to be overdramatic here, but the 2014 La Conseillante that night was truly a very sensual experience.
It just completely snuck up on me, and by the end I was in ecstasy.

I didn't quite reach that with the '14 VCC last night.
But... Does that mean 14 La Conseillante is better than its VCC counterpart?
Not necessarily.
Conseillante is drinking better. But is it a better drink than VCC?
They are both brilliant.

And then there are Marcus's arguments, some of which are compelling.
Conseillante is less expensive, etc. It seems to me we see more discussion here about Conseillante than VCC.

On the other hand, in DC I actually enjoyed the VCCs at least as much, if not more than the epic-vintage Conseillantes we had.
I just thought those VCCs were so fun, interesting, compelling, even the crazy 2015, which I actually ended up loving in all of its Jeff Leve insanity....

I'm really torn!

They are both stunning wines.
I'm not inclined to pick both, David, I think we need to choose one.

We still have a little more time to think about it before New Years Eve....

Wonderful musings, Jim.

My vote between the two - for whatever it is worth - is the VCC.

I look at it this way: one of the finest Bordeaux palates that I know, MarkG, has gone bonkers over this wine. I have too, but I am a yak palate. MarkG is the real deal. I think this VCC will show true form in about 8-10 years, you are catching it, frankly, at a tough time.

I might be more inclined to choose a 2018 or maybe even a 2016, given that this is 2021, but that’s a different issue.

[Nicklasss]

Now i guess you need to try the............










2014 Château Lynch Bages...

[OrlandoRobert]

Now i guess you need to try the............










2014 Château Lynch Bages...

TROTANOY!!!!

[marcs]

This is a palate preference issue I suppose, but something about VCC just doesn’t quite do it for me. I respect it, I admire it, intellectually I recognize its depth, distinctiveness, and complexity…but I don’t *love* it. I find a certain stiffness, a certain forbidding and unbending quality, to VCC. It tends to be a dark, forceful, masculine wine, not quite heavy but not quite seductively light on its feet either. It also tends to have a dark and masculine flavor palate that I don’t totally get along with — e.g. overtones of licorice and anise that just aren’t totally my cup of tea.

In contrast, I love Conseillante, at its best it just sings and dances for me, I fell in love with it early in my wine experience and it made me fall for Pomerol. (Back then Conseillante really was quite affordable, but I guess things have changed). The Conseillante vertical I went to in 2018 was one of my best wine nights ever. I’ll have to try post-2014 vintages to see if things have changed, but I suspect I’ll still love it

[Nicklasss]

This is a palate preference issue I suppose, but something about VCC just doesn’t quite do it for me. I respect it, I admire it, intellectually I recognize its depth, distinctiveness, and complexity…but I don’t *love* it. I find a certain stiffness, a certain forbidding and unbending quality, to VCC. It tends to be a dark, forceful, masculine wine, not quite heavy but not quite seductively light on its feet either. It also tends to have a dark and masculine flavor palate that I don’t totally get along with — e.g. overtones of licorice and anise that just aren’t totally my cup of tea.

In contrast, I love Conseillante, at its best it just sings and dances for me, I fell in love with it early in my wine experience and it made me fall for Pomerol. (Back then Conseillante really was quite affordable, but I guess things have changed). The Conseillante vertical I went to in 2018 was one of my best wine nights ever. I’ll have to try post-2014 vintages to see if things have changed, but I suspect I’ll still love it

You sum it well Marcus and I'm totally aligned with you on that. I've like the semi-hedonistic, complex, seductive power, but still classic Pomerol personnality of every vintages of La Conseillante i've had, over every vintages i've had from VCC. The very concentrated side of VCC, with it very dark Merlot/Cabernet character, masculine complexity, but also classic Pomerol finish, seems a little bit less fine in mouth to me. But, i also recognize that it is a great wine.

The wine i did not had often, that is rarely discussed about here, and that I would categorized as a bit "La Conseillante" in style, is La Fleur-Petrus. And Trotanoy would be more in the VCC style, but with just enough slightly less Cabernet so just slightly less anise/licorice dark.

And I would say that my few experiences with l'Évangile make me think that the "Pomerol made by Lafite team" is in the middle of all these.

[Blanquito]

I agree with Marcus, La Conseillante has always beguiled and in a (hitherto fore at least) singularly Burgundian style.

But I hardly ever drink VCC, almost never. I did think the 82 VCC was really smashing at the Pomerol night in DC, and then that bottle of the 2014 (enjoyed under admittedly sublime circumstances) was a real revelation. The energy and seamlessness it displayed were striking, yes in a darker more strict style than some, but it was singing for us straight out of the bottle. One of the truly exhilarating young wines I’ve ever had.

[Musigny 151]

As we are going for similes and metaphors to describe the differences between, let me try and give my two cents.

La Conseillante wags it’s tail. It has a lot of depth behind that, but it takes little effort to find it all, and you feel you know the wine. VCC is more austere and mysterious. You reach it in slow moments of awareness as it begins revealing itself while still holding something back that only bottle age will ultimately reveal. There is marvelous complexity, a core of fruit two thirds in, and then a long nuanced but still incomplete finish, one that will unfurl further over the years.

There are some wines where you sense the soul. I had that first with a Clair Dau Bonnes Mares, and a few wines since including the 2014 VCC. They are not always objectively great, but you know and love them. Clair Dau, for instance, I never scored higher than 93. I knew it’s flaws, a slight hollowness in mid palate, and yet still treasured it.

And if this doesn’t land me in Pseud’s Corner, I don’t know what will.

[marcs]

I love similes and metaphors when wildly generalizing about wines! More than fruit basket lists, which (don't tell anyone) are actually nothing but a bunch of similes and metaphors as well, just linguistically limited to the produce section of the supermarket. I actually agree with Mark's metaphors, except instead of comparing Conseillante to a friendly puppy wagging its tail I would compare it to a beautiful friendly woman issuing a seductive invitation to spend some time together.

[DavidG]

So, cats and dogs? Retrievers and hounds?

It does seem we all agree on the wines' essential characters, at which point it comes down to personal preference and individual experience.

I love 'em both, but if I had to pick a favorite - not limited to 2014 - it would be Conseillante by a nose. Could be selection bias - I’ve had too many great bottles of the '89 and '90 over the years.

[JimHow]

The 2014 La Conseillante was the definition of “light on its feet.”

[Blanquito]

If Marcus’ La Conseillante is a seductress, does that make VCC the ultimate bromance?

[Nicklasss]

As you like images or metaphors, i would say that:

Château La Conseillante is Poison Ivy.
Vieux Château Certan is Batman.

Both will kill you, but i prefer to be killed the Poison Ivy way....