Bordeaux, Parker, etc... It's all becoming irrelevant to me.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:32 pm

At PJ's in Manhattan:

Chateau Lanessan Haut-Medoc Pre-Arrival 2009 (750ML)
Generally a St.-Julien/Pauillac-like offering, the 2009 Lanessan seems more explosive and concentrated than prior vintages. I’m not sure it is the finest I have ever tasted, but it boasts a dense purple color as well as copious creme de cassis, cedar wood, underbrush, and spice notes. Beautiful opulence, silky tannins, and a long finish suggest this sleeper of the vintage will drink well for 2-3 decades. (Tasted once.) - WA90-92

Code: W-00005456

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Your Price: $17.97
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Availability: In Stock
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AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:33 pm

Jim,

You wrote:

"Sigh. Do you think I am lying, Alex?"

No way!

and "Do you think I want cheap Bordeaux to be mediocre?"

I would never suspect you of something so base

!

And you continue by saying
"Blind tastings, as we all know, produce all kinds of skewed results.
Heck, experts have sometimes not even been able to differentiate between white and red wines in blind tastings.
I would attribute zero significance to any such blind tasting results from a few minutes of swirling and sniffing in a party-like setting where we are drinking dozens of other high end wines".

I think that blind tastings, although not be-all-and-end-all, the divine path to THE TRUTH, do indeed have something important to say to us.
If you (or I!) can't distinguish a $ 20 Bordeaux from an $ 100 one, then surely this speaks well for the former and possibly not very well for the latter.
Personally, I like nice surprises, and that is what the good showing of a little-known or inexpensive wine is to me.
The question is: why not intersperse such wines at a tasting of great growths?
At worst they will reinforce the supremacy of the crus classés and be mostly a waste of time.
But at best, they will open eyes and provide consumers with excellent value for money and a way of thumbing their noses at the pundits.

You ask me why modestly-priced Bordeaux isn't more prevalent on your market.
I've given part of the reason above, but I will meet you head-on by saying that, yes, there is a quality problem at the bottom of the barrel price-wise.
Another difficulty is that with thousands of estates to choose from, you go from the sublime to the ridiculous. You need to pick and choose. Yes.
Also, the château system is paradoxical because it limits the amount of wine available for sale. In other words, let's hypothesize that an importer comes across a brilliant gem of a wine in, let's say, the Côtes de Castillon. How in the world can they possibly supply the American market? Reduced quantities made brand promotion (because estates are brands in a way) very difficult.

The dream, of course, is to create a dependable, inexpensive, blended branded Bordeaux.
It's no easier here than elsewhere, and perhaps even more difficult because of the connection people make between Bordeaux and "château" - even tighter than some people make between Bordeaux and "great growth).
The only successful example is Mouton Cadet... and even there, believe it or not, there is some confusion with Mouton Rothschild.

All the best,
Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:25 pm

I guess i just don't know what I like, then.
Nevertheless, I don't see my limited wine drinking occasions being filled by these awesome lower-end Bordeaux wines.
A huge missed opportunity, I'm sure.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:28 pm

You never know 'till you try.

Like hang gliding or sniffing coke...

Alex

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:36 pm

But I HAVE tried, Alex. I HAVE tried. The wines are boring as a '93 Batailley....

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Thu May 12, 2011 3:06 pm

But have you tried hang gliding while drinking the '93 Batailley?

Gives an entirely new perspective!

Alex

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:28 pm

Interesting discussion. I'm not far from Jim's camp on frustration with rising prices and greed in the food chain! I still enjoy lesser growth Bordeaux far more than most other wine regions.

I'm not sure on Jim's concept or fear of blind tasting. Maybe it stems from a nightmarish experience a few years back in a friends Washington DC basement ( AKA Tom in DC) when the BD couldn't even recognize the touted 89 LB from plonk!Well maybe not PLONK!

Nice to see Jim keeping up his tradition of stirring up the S..T just before the convention. Hope everyone has a great time. Disappointed can't make it this year but looking forward to the stories!

Danny

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:38 pm

Nice to see Jim keeping up his tradition of stirring up the S..T just before the convention. Hope everyone has a great time. Disappointed can't make it this year but looking forward to the stories!

FINNALY, somebody realizes my true motives!

Sorry you guys can't make it, Danny, we'll catch you next year. (DC? NY?)

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:45 pm

It's true the cru bourgeois are significantly different from the top crus classes. At 20 years or so the crus bourgeois may have some wonderful secondary characteristics. But with the crus classes it's "five more years."

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Thu May 12, 2011 7:40 pm

The issue with blind tasting is finding a level playing field. Tasting a wide range of ten-year-old Bordeaux seems to be a popular approach, and one that always yields many surprises on the upside from non-Grand Cru wines. Of course, if you drink all of your Bordeaux at age ten, your money is better spent almost anywhere but Grand Cru Bordeaux.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Thu May 12, 2011 8:29 pm

Wow, this is quite the thread. Since I'm new to the forum I thought long before deciding to post. I realize there is a long history here of which I am not a part. However, try as others might, if Jim is truly no longer in love with Bordeaux, I don't see how pointing him in the direction of more affordable wines will help. If love is the proper metaphor, offering Jim Pontesac in lieu of Lafites sounds like offering him your wife's best friend after he's boken up with (insert the name of the hottest, most captivating woman you can think of). In my limited experience in these matters, once the heat goes out, the heat goes out. The complaint about the cost of high end bordeaux and the role of Parker, etc, might even be a cover for a more fundamental, gut-level set of reasons for the "break up." I'm sorry this has happened to you, Jim. But who knows, every ending is also a new beginning (as every Shaivite knows), and maybe your new beginning, whatever it might be, will introduce you to something just as compelling as bordeaux once was.

I have a couple of tid bits of information that bear on other aspects of this discussion. I have a good friend who is a wine importer. In Canada that means he sells to government stores, not to private stores like in the States, which means he isn't motivated by the ideal of the best price he can get -- it's all set by the government. Because he is the importer for a number of Bordeaux chateaux, he annually goes over for tastings. One day over coffee he related that Michel Reybier of Cos D'estournel told him he'd like to build a huge stature in honour of RP on his property! I think that says something about the impact Mr. Parker has had on the market. He also mentioned that the Negociants are keeping back large quantities of first growth bordeaux.

One last thing. Jim, if the love affair is over, truly over, do you have any Duhart-Milon you'd like to sell?

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu May 12, 2011 9:04 pm

A statue of Parker is Awesome. Where, at Cos or in some central square in Bordeaux? I think I suggested that a few years ago. Like the Beatles and Christ, Parker is bigger than de Gaulle, or Joan of Arc. When you think about it he's done more for Bordeaux, if not France as a whole (which is a fairly debatable point), than de Gaulle ever did.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:02 am

I picked up the May issue of Decanter this evening, and so many things seem to speak to the issues of this thread I thought I'd post a few more comments. It may be the Jim's new attitude to Bordeaux is part of a trend. The magazine declares that, not just Jim, but all of "America has fallen out of love with Bordeaux." Furthermore, in a declaration that there may already be a new mistress, the same issue reveals "America's love affair with Italy!" Perhaps, Jim, there's a good Barbaresco waiting for you to discover it. The same issue, moreover, suggests that with the rise of China the Bordelais no longer care about the American market. That said, the French may come to regret their knew found Asian lover. Apparently, COFCO, the new Chinese owner of Chateau de Viaund in Pomerol has decided it doesn't need the negociants and plans on bypassing them completely! And just to rub a little salt in the wound, the declared reason for leaving them out of the loop is to guarantee the authenticity of the wine!! Similarly, Richard Shen Dongjun, who purchased Chateau Laulan Ducos, has decided to halt sales of the wine in France, sending all production to China!! Watch out world. COFCO is apparently looking to buy up vineyards in California, Italy, Australia and South Africa. Hmmmm, it looks like the rest of us will be left drinking Canadian wine!!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:37 am

Good stuff, Bacchus.

I've said it here before, and I'll say it again:

China is overrated.

Financially, politically, culturally, militarily, in the world of fine wine, China is... overrated.

There. I said it.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:40 am

Why?
Because they don't have true freedom of speech.
And their civil rights are limited.
And they have a huge gap between rich and poor, between urban and agrarian.
They have enormous resources.
But it will take more than that to survive in this crazy world.

In the end, Bordeaux will come crawling back to me and my fellow Americans.

The Jean Michel Cazes of the world, and the Alfred Tesserons, and the Tesseron niece there, whatever her name is....

Even sweet Annabelle Cruze....

They'll all come crawling back, on their hands and knees....

You just watch.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:43 am

Very interesting insights from Decanter, Bacchus. I gave up on it years ago but it sounds like the latest issue is full of intrigue. When was it that Japan was going to own everything?

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri May 13, 2011 4:58 am

Barbaresco as a replacement for Bordeaux? You have got to be kidding.

Yes, Jim; these things go in cycles. Bordeaux prices might crash and certainly will come back to reasonable (i.e., competitive on the world market vis a vis other wines) levels. I have seen 3 such cycles in my many years of buying Bordeaux. I am biding my time waiting for the crash.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri May 13, 2011 6:32 am

Stefan,

I'm pushing 60. The only time I remember Bordeaux prices crashing during my lifetime was in the mid 1970s.
What were the other 2 times you remember?

I have a morbid interest in finding out where prices will go in the next few years.
I say morbid because it really doesn't affect me because of my age and the fact that I have a good backlog in my cellar.

I'm wondering "how far is too far"?

All the best,
Alex

JonoB · Post by **JonoB** » Fri May 13, 2011 8:18 am

For me it is already too far... All I have is the knowledge that a few bottles of Haut-Bailly, SHL and lots of lesser wines will age admirably for 10-20 years as an anniversary wine in this 2010 vintage having tried them!!

Jim,

When they come crawling back, because I have to agree that they will... In a sort of mean sadistic way that pulls the wool off from the world's eyes, the treatment Lee Wen Bao and Ai Wei Wei are perfect examples of why China won't survive... Of course, when is a new issue. I seem to remember Japan created a bubble for MRgaux and Le Pin... The crash then sparked a period of much lower Bordeaux prices, hence 90s being much cheaper. This will happen again... Without serious social changes that based on Xhinese political history will only ever occur if the people rise up and install democracy themselves as the students (not enough) tried at tiananmen. You know there are young people who don't know that happened?? Then China will always be a false economy and going chasing the dream will work for a few years but not long term. They will burn their fingers.

When the Bordelais come crawling back, how about this Jim... "I'm sorry, I've found the King! I've found Barolo and he has a lovely mischievous Queen called Barbaresco...

What happened to all those Chinese? :p "

On a serious note. If the break-out is terminal which it isn't but clearly you want to buy more wine. Your increasing enjoyment of Burgundy at all levels is a perfect reason to explore Piedmontese wines... The flavours are a bit like Pinot but with a structure and more linear ageing profile to match Bordeaux. On release the most expensive wine is €200-300 a bottle and worth every penny, and I am an expert in the region who can lend an ear in the process of stuffing it to the Bordelais!!

I will be drinking either Piedmontese wines of Cissac whilst I do it though.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 11:47 am

You're darn tootin', Jono.
We've made J.M. Cazes and Alfred Tesseron and their like into what they are today, and they've cast us aside like a cheap suit.
How sweet it will be when they come crawling back to us....
Oh, how sweet it will be....

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:55 pm

More supply for the "fine wine" market.

Moet Hennesy has just announced they'll be planting acreage in NW china to make sparkling wine.

http://www.cnwinenews.com/html/201105/1 ... 110453.htm

I guess Champagne growers are in a relatively better position than the growers of mere Bordeaux Superior, Alex?

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri May 13, 2011 1:23 pm

Maybe crash is too strong a word, Alex, but the most recent time I had in mind was just a couple of years ago when there was a ton of wine sitting in the distribution channel (mostly with distributors) that was basically dumped at distress prices. The deals then were comparable to those available in the 1970s dumping. We also had the big, but short, dip earlier this century that allowed many of us to load up on 2002 Bordeaux, but I was thinking more of the 1960s when the success of 1961 could not be repeated. The wonderful 1962s were ignored and cheap. 1964 was hyped, but there were too many disappointments, so prices dropped and were fairly stable until they shot up when the 1970s came out. Then the speculation started and later in the decade we had the great crash to which you refer.

Michael-P · Post by **Michael-P** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:15 pm

Alex:

Wasn't there a crash 4Q-08 to 3Q-09?
Even though the market quickly recovered, if you bought high (2Q-08) and sold low (2Q-09) , you would have called it a crash!

Michael-P

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Hound,

You wrote:
"I guess Champagne growers are in a relatively better position than the growers of mere Bordeaux Superior, Alex?"

May isn't over yet, but I'm sure that qualifies for understatement of the month...

With 10 hectares of vines in Bordeaux Supérieur, you work 70 hour weeks and manage to pay your bills and earn not much more than the minimum wage.

With 10 hectares in Champagne, you drive a BMW...

Alex

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri May 13, 2011 5:31 pm

JimHow wrote:You're darn tootin', Jono.
We've made J.M. Cazes and Alfred Tesseron and their like into what they are today, and they've cast us aside like a cheap suit.
How sweet it will be when they come crawling back to us....
Oh, how sweet it will be....

Au contraire. They didn't cast me aside. I cast them aside. They would be happy to sell me their wines at current market prices. I took a pass. I'm not holding my breath for the next crash, but if it comes, I will consider buying again. Problem is, at my age, by then I probably wont be in the market for the likes of those wines even if they are going for 1990s prices.

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:18 pm

I don't blame the owners for setting prices at the level the market will bear. I always found Bordeaux to be much more market-driven than the top California wines, which seem to set their prices regardless of the quality of the vintage, etc. The owners, I'm certain, would welcome true wine lovers into their Chateaux and treat them as they have treated us over the years, with great respect and genuine affection.

There are two questions: is there a crash coming, and can the lesser growths/crus bourgeois be a reasonable substitute for the great wines.

As far as the crash, I certainly hope so. People said that the U.S. housing market would never crash. People said that the tech market would never crash. Both did. I have a feeling that in time, this market will as well. Also, the speculation tends to be much more in the new vintages than in the older vintages. Given how long it takes for Bordeaux to mature, let them buy the new stuff. I'm amazed that 2000 Bordeaux is cheaper than 2009 Bordeaux.

For the lesser growths, they are nice, and I do enjoy them for regular wine. But nothing beats a quality Grand Cru Classe. I once had a professor in college, a Jesuit, that at the end of the class always wished us a "mediocre weekend". For the mediocre weekends make us appreciate more the great weekends. Cru Bourgeois do have a purpose in life: to help us appreciate the good stuff!

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:23 pm

JimHow wrote: We've made J.M. Cazes and Alfred Tesseron and their like into what they are today, and they've cast us aside like a cheap suit.
How sweet it will be when they come crawling back to us....
Oh, how sweet it will be....

Jim, I do think that both M. Cazes and M. Tesseron would welcome us without reservation, regardless of whether we were buying at today's prices or not. If we do another BWE in France, which I hope we will, I think it would be worth to visit both places and get their view on this. I'm sure they would be both interested in our perspective as well as candidly share theirs. I recall how many times M. Cazes spoke highly of you during our visit to Lynch Bages, you would have been quite flattered.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:26 pm

If I were a professor, I would say:
"May you never have a mediocre weekend. May all your weekends, may every minute of your life, be nothing but spectacular and breathtaking!"

Setting prices that the market can bear:
Read: Get your greedy hands on every penny you can get.
You are right, Timmy. Some people live their lives that way.
Far be it for me to preach to someone how they should live their lives.
Myself, I try to keep my fees reasonable, I try to help people in need, I try to live a life not of greed and money, money, money, but finding value in other things.

But that's just me....

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:28 pm

Jim, I do think that both M. Cazes and M. Tesseron would welcome us without reservation, regardless of whether we were buying at today's prices or not. If we do another BWE in France, which I hope we will, I think it would be worth to visit both places and get their view on this. I'm sure they would be both interested in our perspective as well as candidly share theirs. I recall how many times M. Cazes spoke highly of you during our visit to Lynch Bages, you would have been quite flattered.

That business about Cazes and Tesseron is humor, Timmy, to underscore a point....

The "Oh how they will come crawling back" business is drama and hyperbole, to make a point.

I'm not REALLY being that dramatic. <rolls eyes>

I'm sure Alfred Tesseron and Jean-Michel Cazes would welcome us with open arms!

It's just too bad those of us who were as obssessed as anyone in the world about their wines can't afford to drink them anymore.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:38 pm

Bordeaux has become one big drama queen.
It has become the Rolex, the Lamborghini, of the world of wine.
Bordeaux, Robert Parker, the whole shebang, has become yucky to me.

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:45 pm

JimHow wrote: Setting prices that the market can bear:
Read: Get your greedy hands on every penny you can get.
You are right, Timmy. Some people live their lives that way.
Far be it for me to preach to someone how they should live their lives.
Myself, I try to keep my fees reasonable, I try to help people in need, I try to live a life not of greed and money, money, money, but finding value in other things.

But that's just me....

I don't think its as black and white as that. If you set prices far below what the market will bear, how do you allocate based on the demand when the demand far exceeds the supply? How do you ensure that JimHow gets his proper allocation? The Bordeaux market has always been driven by price. Just look at the original 1855 classification. It's not a perfect system, certainly, and one of the downsides is that it is subject to speculation.

The wine market has always been a bit different. It's somewhere between a commodity market, a speculative market, and an art market. You and I and most people here view it as art, as something that is appreciated for its qualities, not for its future monetary value. There are lots of people that are in it for the money. The market is a battle between those that truly appreciate it for what it is, and those that drive up the price for its speculative financial value.

Or here's another way to look at it. The wine market will be dictated by market forces. It is inevitable. Who would you prefer to make the most profit from the market: the producer or the middle man. Personally, I'd rather the producer get the most profit, as they did most of the work to make a decent wine.

On a final thought, I was watching a Mika Brzezinski interview on knowing your value. Some of those same principles can probably be applied here.

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:46 pm

JimHow wrote:Bordeaux has become one big drama queen.
It has become the Rolex, the Lamborghini, of the world of wine.
Bordeaux, Robert Parker, the whole shebang, has become yucky to me.

Methinks JimHow needs a BWE convention soon....

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:53 pm

I'm just a country lawyer from Maine, Timmy, and maybe I'm a bit old fashioned.
In my mind, these sudden, crazy price escalations are just plain "wrong". Not illegal. Not immoral.
They are a microcosm of the gilded, greed-is-good age in which we live.
I don't care how many economists or experts think it is okay.
What I've seen happen in New Hampshire, where people buy $180 bottles of wine and sell them for $1,000, is "wrong".
Those are wines that should be consumed by people living in New England... not by some Singapore millionaire.
You can blame the producers, or the wholesalers, or the retailers, or those scalping these wines.
In the end, it is just yucky to me.
I don't need it in my life!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:54 pm

Methinks JimHow needs a BWE convention soon....

?

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:58 pm

To whom should the last penny go?

I shall have an exceptional weekend.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 7:59 pm

LOL. Well done, Hound.
Hey, when children are dying in Biafra, drinking Two Buck Chuck is an abomination.

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 8:09 pm

JimHow wrote:
Methinks JimHow needs a BWE convention soon....
?

I mean, you need to enjoy some nice wine with some fellow BWE'ers quickly... otherwise you will become too cynical!

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 8:12 pm

JimHow wrote: In my mind, these sudden, crazy price escalations are just plain "wrong". Not illegal. Not immoral.
They are a microcosm of the gilded, greed-is-good age in which we live.

I agree completely. Gordon Gekko would love the wine industry today. My only two points are: a) don't blame the producers for what the system has created; and b) It will crash.

tim · Post by **tim** » Fri May 13, 2011 8:14 pm

JimHow wrote:If I were a professor, I would say:
"May you never have a mediocre weekend. May all your weekends, may every minute of your life, be nothing but spectacular and breathtaking!"

I guess I should mention that he was a Philosophy Professor that had a strange obsession with Snake Plants.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 13, 2011 8:20 pm

You guys are too quick to let Bordeaux and the whole industry, from producers to media to consumers, off the hook.

It's like that scene in Woody Allen's "Manhattan", where Isaac finds out that his best friend Yale has been cheating on him with Mary (Diane Keaton), and he bursts into the classroom....

I spoke to Mary. Were you gonna tell me?

- I was, but... I'm trying to teach a class.
- So where can we go and talk?

- How'd you get past the security?
- I walked right past.

What are you telling me?
That you're gonna leave Emily

and run away with
the... the winner of the

Zelda Fitzgerald
Emotional Maturity Award?

Look, I love her.

- What kind of crazy friend are you?
- A good friend. I introduced you two.

- Why? What was the point?
- Cos I thought you liked her!

- I do! Now we both like her!
- Yeah, well, I liked her first.

"I liked her first."
What are you, six years old? Jesus!

Look, would I have encouraged you
to take her out if I still liked her?

So you liked her? Now you don't like her?

It's early. You can change your mind
one more time before dinner.

Don't get sarcastic about this.
You think I like this?

How long were you gonna see her
without telling me?

Don't turn this into
one of your big moral issues.

You could've said, but you... All you had
to do was call me and talk to me.

I'm understanding. I'd have said no,
but you'd have felt honest.

I wanted to tell you about it.
I knew it would upset you. I...

We had a few innocent meetings.

A few? She said one. You guys should get
your story straight. Don't you rehearse?

We met twice for coffee.

Hey, she doesn't drink coffee.

Did you meet for Sanka? That's not too
romantic. A little on the geriatric side.

I'm not a saint, OK?

You're too easy on yourself.
Don't you see?

You're... You rationalise everything.
You're not honest with yourself.

You talk about you wanna write a book,
but in the end you'd rather buy a Porsche.

You cheat a little bit on Emily
and you play around the truth with me.

The next thing you know you're in front
of a Senate committee naming names.

You are so self-righteous.

I mean, we're just people. We're just
human beings. You think you're God!

I gotta model myself after someone.

You just can't live the way you do.
It's all so perfect.

Jesus, what are future generations
gonna say about us? My God!

You know, someday
we're gonna be like him.

And he was probably one of the beautiful
people, dancing and playing tennis.

And now look. This is what happens to us.

You know, it's important
to have some kind of personal integrity.

I'll be hanging in a classroom one day

and I wanna make sure when I thin out
that I'm... well thought of.

Ike!

Isaac, where are you going?