Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

I certainly have no problems with people making a profit off of buying and selling wine. I was actually going to start a thread on the issue of how we could start a business buying New Hampshire wines on sale and flipping them at a profit. As long as it’s legal, I’ve got no problems with it at all.

The website is fairly unhelpful. They don’t seem to list vintages.

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Can stefan, that knows mathematics well, explain to me "what is too much wines"?
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The number is a measurable cardinal, Nic. Unless mathematics is built on sand (meaning that the axioms of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory are inconsistent, which means that much of mathematics is even more nonsensical than most lay people believe), it is consistent to believe that measurable cardinals do not exist.

Are you sorry that you asked?

Stefan:

Is mathematics discovered or invented?

stefan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:16 pm >>
Can stefan, that knows mathematics well, explain to me "what is too much wines"?
>>

The number is a measurable cardinal, Nic. Unless mathematics is built on sand (meaning that the axioms of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory are inconsistent, which means that much of mathematics is even more nonsensical than most lay people believe), it is consistent to believe that measurable cardinals do not exist.

Are you sorry that you asked?

Ouch! This comes after a conversation with a close friend who tells me that today mathematics has become political.

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Is mathematics discovered or invented?
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Jim, I never heard a mathematician say "I invented...". We always say "I discovered..." or "I proved...".

I also have friends who are idiots and/or oblivious, Mark.

Guys
I never buy wine with the idea of flipping it later but several times in my life I have - for one reason or another - sold off large volumes. The Australian auctioneers Langtons once said that I saved them from liquidation a few times during various economic recessions.

So now I’m not so precious. I regularly send unwanted wine to auction and I drip filtered several thousand bottles thru Langtons when I moved here. Okay some I regretted but moving aged wine to balmy Singapore is both risky and expensive.

Cheers
Mark

stefan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:48 pm >>
Is mathematics discovered or invented?
>>

Jim, I never heard a mathematician say "I invented...". We always say "I discovered..." or "I proved...".

Great answer. Didnt expect such a definitive response to an age-old question

When it comes to mathematics we are in the presence of greatness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William ... ematician)

Come on, he only has his name on a lemma, not even a theorem...he's like a second growth mathematician...a fine Oregon pinot but not a Burgundy grand cru...

(obviously just teasing...I can't even understand lemmas let alone try to write one LOL)

He is a La Mission of mathematics.

And yet, the California educational leadership wants to get rid of algebra in middle schools, and calculus in the high schools - because somehow its inequitable that some kids do poorly in math. So by not teaching it, the gap can no longer be measured!

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Come on, he only has his name on a lemma, not even a theorem.
>>

Yeah, to my great chagrin, I have to live with that, Marcus.

AKR wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:14 pm And yet, the California educational leadership wants to get rid of algebra in middle schools, and calculus in the high schools - because somehow its inequitable that some kids do poorly in math. So by not teaching it, the gap can no longer be measured!

Yeah, there is no educational leadership in CA. Same thing with test scores, math and even homework. It's easier to get rid of everything so that the gap can no longer be measured...Agreed that any test can't solely measure the true abilities of a student, but getting rid of stuff in the name of making the system equitable is stupid at best...

And the irony is that in another era, tests were intended to be the leveling force for fairness. Once upon a time if one went to Choate, Hotchkiss, Phillips Exeter etc. they got into the top schools no matter what their ability was. The standardized tests were intended so that clever kid from a no name public school could still be assessed academically.

The districts that get rid of math the most are the ones which will drive out their middle class families and engaged parents. They'll be in suburban systems, or if they have the means, private/parochial/charter systems.

Getting rid of standardized tests also makes it harder for anyone who wants to sue you for racial bias in admissions - specifically for racial bias against Asians

So is this where the name Stefan came from? Or did it precede and/or unrelated?

"stefan" is indeed in honor of a math guy, Joel. I always write it with a lower case s so as not to disrespect the great Stefan. Stefan had a son who was a junior, which is why my son on BWE is stefanJr. His wife's name was Łucja and my wife is Lucie on BWE.

marcs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:52 pm Getting rid of standardized tests also makes it harder for anyone who wants to sue you for racial bias in admissions - specifically for racial bias against Asians

But it also makes it much more likely that the wronged will get organized for voting in low turnout school related elections!!!

stefan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:05 am "stefan" is indeed in honor of a math guy, Joel. I always write it with a lower case s so as not to disrespect the great Stefan. Stefan had a son who was a junior, which is why my son on BWE is stefanJr. His wife's name was Łucja and my wife is Lucie on BWE.

Ah, I have somehow been oblivious to the lower case. My apologies, stefan. And to Stefan.

Always fun to hear the backstories of the long term BWE'ers. I wish I had found you all much sooner. Currently making up for lost time though!

stefan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:48 pm >>
Is mathematics discovered or invented?
>>

Jim, I never heard a mathematician say "I invented...". We always say "I discovered..." or "I proved...".

I also have friends who are idiots and/or oblivious, Mark.

But professor stefan, isn’t zero (considering it as part of mathematics) an invention rather than a discovery?

For me, it’s one of the three great inventions of all time, that changed the course of human history...

stefan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:05 am "stefan" is indeed in honor of a math guy, Joel. I always write it with a lower case s so as not to disrespect the great Stefan. Stefan had a son who was a junior, which is why my son on BWE is stefanJr. His wife's name was Łucja and my wife is Lucie on BWE.

“Maathru Devo Bhava, Pithru Devo Bhava, Acharya Devo Bhava, Athidhi Devo Bhava...”

That’s where a guru (referring to actual true meaning of guru, not westernized one), whether Stefan or stefan, belongs in the circle of honor...

CV, mathematicians do occasionally "formulate" (what I have heard rather than "invent", although "formulate" certainly involves "inventiveness") new axioms. We then "discover" theorems that follow from the axioms used.

I think the empty set and zero belong in the realm of discoveries, not inventions.
Even in the absence of other evidence, zero is implied by the existence of one and negative one, both discoveries imo.

Racer Chris wrote: ↑Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:39 pm I think the empty set and zero belong in the realm of discoveries, not inventions.
Even in the absence of other evidence, zero is implied by the existence of one and negative one, both discoveries imo.

Does negative one really exist in nature?

its the quickest way to get from 4 to 3

Musigny
Err, I’ve been buying and selling wine for 40 years at auction and in fact sold several thousand when I moved to Singapore in 2009. Wasn’t prepared for the cost and drama in shipping here.

So since the 80’s I’m hellbound. I do except that some are angels but I’m getting too old for it. Oh well.

Cheers
Mark

Racer Chris wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:02 am its the quickest way to get from 4 to 3

I understand that subtraction exists and that it's possible to count backwards as you remove items. What I am wondering is whether "negative one" as a unit is natural in the way that the counting numbers are. I could own one or two of something but I can never own -1 of something. Negative numbers come in as useful abstractions in accounting, mathematics, etc. but I don't have any intuitive sense of them existing "in nature" like I do with positive integers.

marcs wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 pm

Racer Chris wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:02 am its the quickest way to get from 4 to 3

I understand that subtraction exists and that it's possible to count backwards as you remove items. What I am wondering is whether "negative one" as a unit is natural in the way that the counting numbers are. I could own one or two of something but I can never own -1 of something. Negative numbers come in as useful abstractions in accounting, mathematics, etc. but I don't have any intuitive sense of them existing "in nature" like I do with positive integers.

Maybe this is too basic of an example for where you're going with this, but you could for instance owe more wine than you own of a bottle. You own 3 but owe 4 bottles to a friend. Maybe some broke, got lost, thought more were coming in and didn't etc. So in theory thats where you can have a negative balance in ownership of something.

marcs wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 pm

Racer Chris wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:02 am its the quickest way to get from 4 to 3

I understand that subtraction exists

Subtraction is merely part of addition.

JoelD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:52 pm

marcs wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 pm

Racer Chris wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:02 am its the quickest way to get from 4 to 3

I understand that subtraction exists and that it's possible to count backwards as you remove items. What I am wondering is whether "negative one" as a unit is natural in the way that the counting numbers are. I could own one or two of something but I can never own -1 of something. Negative numbers come in as useful abstractions in accounting, mathematics, etc. but I don't have any intuitive sense of them existing "in nature" like I do with positive integers.

Maybe this is too basic of an example for where you're going with this, but you could for instance owe more wine than you own of a bottle. You own 3 but owe 4 bottles to a friend. Maybe some broke, got lost, thought more were coming in and didn't etc. So in theory thats where you can have a negative balance in ownership of something.

That’s exactly what I meant when I said that negative numbers were a useful abstraction in accounting systems. Accounting systems allow for negative assets exactly to track liabilities. There is some evidence that ancient Chinese and medieval Arabs may have used negative numbers in that way for commercial business calculations. But that to me seems like inventing a tool to use in doing business rather than finding something in nature.

We will let Stefan rule on this. No doubt he will have some profound result from set theory

I knew there would be something good coming out of that poll. But i would have never imagine which way it would have gone. So -1 for me!

Also, i guess that anyone who is divorced knows that negative numbers exist!

I love it that math is discussed on a wine board!

No doubt negative numbers were used, at least implicitly, in ancient times. The huge breakthrough came when it was realized that one could formulate axioms to describe arithmetic and geometry, and then derive useful consequences (theorems) from the axioms.

We are very much indebted to the Greeks, especially Euclid.

According to my very limited understanding, the Greeks had no use for negative numbers as their mathematics was geometry-based so negative numbers made no intuitive sense (think of a negative area or circumference of a shape -- inconceivable). At various points in history negative numbers were used as entries in bookkeeping/accounting systems to notate debts, but the deep incorporation of negative numbers into higher mathematical theory had to wait for the 18th-19th century in Europe. But I have almost no real knowledge here, I'm a classic inch deep liberal arts major type LOL.

Oh, sorry; I see that what I wrote suggested that the Greeks had axioms for arithmetic. They axiomatized geometry. Axiomatization of arithmetic came much later, as Marcus notes, even if negative number were used much earlier (e.g., in China). In retrospect, it is very surprising that it took so long to axiomatize arithmetic when the Greeks had already demonstrated the power of axiomatization.

Clearly I haven't drunk great Bordeaux to understand all these maths.

I got Nic's joke though! I think. Made me laugh either way