Ethical/psychological question : what do i think about selling wines from my cellar?

[Nicklasss]

Well, i'm sure there are other reasons... please name them. Only 1 vote per person, please vote for what is your limit.

[Nicklasss]

I'm creating that poll, and have a hard time voting...

[JimHow]

Hmmm. Tough one!

[stefan]

Really, Nic? Voting for me was about as easy as choosing between Putin and Zelenskyy.

[Dandersson]

Voted!

[Musigny 151]

I hate to say it, and apologize to OP, but the poll is completely absurd. What has honor got to do with it?
I make no secret that I consider wine to be an extension of my assets, and have absolutely no problem buying wine for profit. I don’t know stocks, but I do know wine.

I am not sure even why this is a question of ethics, and have absolutely no idea why this makes me dishonorable. I find the loaded questions and implications behind them kind of annoying.

[stefan]

Um, Mark; Nic's tongue is planted firmly in cheek with this post.

[marcs]

For me, my physical drinking capacities are declining more rapidly with age then I expected, and I simply have too much wine. And not enough money, LOL! So I will be selling perhaps 10-20% of my collection

[JimHow]

Wow Marcus, I’m planning on retiring next year at age 65. I’m planning on dying at age 80. So that’s 15 years. At two bottles of wine per week on average, or 100 bottles per year, that’s about 1500 bottles of wine to drink over a 15 year period. I only have 860 bottles in my cellar, so I need to buy another 700 bottles.

[ericp]

Jim - note to self: Only buy closed cases LOL.

[JimHow]

Ha yeah my OCD on that issue is pretty severe, Eric. It carries over into my wine racks themselves. If I have a whole section of untouched Calon Segur, once I drink one, the rest are at risk… until I fill in the missing slots, and the section is filled up again, and then they are safe again for a while. There are all these little geometrical sections of my cellar that are points of attack that I am constantly fighting with myself to thwart.

[William P]

I bought my wines to drink and that I will do. Should I go to the great tasting room in the sky before my last bottle, Linda can sell what remains or give it to my daughter.

Bill

[JimHow]

Yes, in the end, I voted #8. I'll drink those 2016 Moutons, or let my heirs decide what to do with them.
I AM planning on leaving a few bottles from my cellar to BWE, trying to figure out how best to devise that in my will.

[ericp]

I feel you Jim - I have 23 of those '16 Sociandos.. one 6pack is open... 0 chance those 5 bottles survive a Blanquito like they should.

[marcs]

Wow Marcus, I’m planning on retiring next year at age 65. I’m planning on dying at age 80. So that’s 15 years. At two bottles of wine per week on average, or 100 bottles per year, that’s about 1500 bottles of wine to drink over a 15 year period. I only have 860 bottles in my cellar, so I need to buy another 700 bottles.

Huh. I'm 11 years younger than you. So say I don't live as long as you, that's 20 years, about 1000 weeks, 2000 bottles. So maybe I don't have too much wine after all. But I tend not drink reds for a couple of the hottest months of the year. Plus despite my frequent claims that I will do a buying freeze, it doesn't seem realistic that I will never buy a bottle again .

I do of course have some changes / discoveries in taste that also lead me to want to switch out some of my wines.

[JimHow]

In the end I would probably sell if I'm destitute. Which reminds me of the story of the 1924 Silver Dollar. so my first job was when I was 15 years old in high school, working at Georgio's Pizza in Lewiston. I remember a guy came in and paid for a pizza with a 1924 silver dollar. I thought it was odd that someone would pay for a pizza with a silver dollar, even back in 1975, it might not have been as valuable as it would be today, but it surely must have been worth more than a dollar. I put a regular dollar in the register and exchanged it for the silver dollar, which I kept in my wallet for years through college and then during the two years between college and law school when I was working odd jobs, bumming around in Boston for a while. And I remember one weekend I was completely out of money in Boston. I didn't have a penny to my name. My mother had mailed me some cash but it didn't come in that Friday or Saturday as I had expected, and now by the end of the weekend I was really hungry. I had already shoplifted a couple of pears from a little market there in Kenmore Square but I was really hungry... So I pulled out the silver dollar, and paid for a pizza slice at Captain Nemo's.... And now I understood why that guy had paid for his Georgio's pizza with a silver dollar. Hopefully I don't have to liquidate those '16 Moutons in similar fashion when I'm in diapers in a nursing home somewhere, that's why I just want to die in my sleep when I'm 80 years old, so that the government doesn't come after my wine cellar for Medicare reimbursement....

[Nicklasss]

I hate to say it, and apologize to OP, but the poll is completely absurd. What has honor got to do with it?
I make no secret that I consider wine to be an extension of my assets, and have absolutely no problem buying wine for profit. I don’t know stocks, but I do know wine.

I am not sure even why this is a question of ethics, and have absolutely no idea why this makes me dishonorable. I find the loaded questions and implications behind them kind of annoying.

Mark, the "honor" stuff is only to make it more funny, and i'm always thinking that the ultimate and totally convinced wine lower will never sell one bottle, wanting to taste/drink all.

I think it has been too long since i last saw you (last time was when, Jal's place in 2008?), and you don't remember i can be a very serious or very absurd person.

So would you sell your bottles of VCC or Magdelaine?

[Racer Chris]

7

[Comte Flaneur]

Nic it is something I think about a lot.

I have transferred a lot of cash into wine in the last couple of years which has just been a transfer from a very liquid asset to a less liquid asset (oxymoronically). One of my biggest fears is becoming permanently unemployed, unemployable and hence destitute and unable to provide for those who depend upon me. I have built up a large war chest of wines. It is almost inevitable I will sell some, even a lot, of this wine because unless I live to a very old age with my faculties in touch it is unlikely I will drink it all; or I maybe forced to sell to raise cash.

I also just want to introduce a concern here and it pertains to Jim’s heroic purchase of 3x6 Mouton 16.

Wine prices will not continue to go up for ever.

The US like Blighty has a serious inflation problem which may eventually mean real interest rates go up so much as to 1/ make cash attractive and 2/ force a painful correction in wine prices.

Remember all these asset price bubbles, wine included, are a function of globalisation pushing down the prices of manufactured goods allowing real interest rate to fall to silly levels and turbo charging credit booms and asset prices, including wine prices. That cannot go on indefinitely. Global goods prices have reversed and we may be entering an era of structurally higher inflation.

[marcs]

#1 is actually rather clever. If you had an original first growth bottle and refilled with another decent Bordeaux at one tenth the price very few people would have the confidence to call it a fake. There are a zillion reasons an aged wine could taste tired. The only real issue would be restoring the cork and capsule and I imagine there are devices for that

[marcs]

Nic it is something I think about a lot.

I have transferred a lot of cash into wine in the last couple of years which has just been a transfer from a very liquid asset to a less liquid asset (oxymoronically). One of my biggest fears is becoming permanently unemployed, unemployable and hence destitute and unable to provide for those who depend upon me. I have built up a large war chest of wines. It is almost inevitable I will sell some, even a lot, of this wine because unless I live to a very old age with my faculties in touch it is unlikely I will drink it all; or I maybe forced to sell to raise cash.

I also just want to introduce a concern here and it pertains to Jim’s heroic purchase of 3x6 Mouton 16.

Wine prices will not continue to go up for ever.

The US like Blighty has a serious inflation problem which may eventually mean real interest rates go up so much as to 1/ make cash attractive and 2/ force a painful correction in wine prices.

Remember all these asset price bubbles, wine included, are a function of globalisation pushing down the prices of manufactured goods allowing real interest rate to fall to silly levels and turbo charging credit booms and asset prices, including wine prices. That cannot go on indefinitely. Global goods prices have reversed and we may be entering an era of structurally higher inflation.

And you called me the party pooper !

Seriously, with respect to your point about globalization, we may be seeing the beginnings of a process of de-globalization caused by the Ukraine war and, just as important but less publicized, the severe strains in the U.S. -China relationship. That may impact some of the patterns you describe as well.

[Musigny 151]

I hate to say it, and apologize to OP, but the poll is completely absurd. What has honor got to do with it?
I make no secret that I consider wine to be an extension of my assets, and have absolutely no problem buying wine for profit. I don’t know stocks, but I do know wine.

I am not sure even why this is a question of ethics, and have absolutely no idea why this makes me dishonorable. I find the loaded questions and implications behind them kind of annoying.

Mark, the "honor" stuff is only to make it more funny, and i'm always thinking that the ultimate and totally convinced wine lower will never sell one bottle, wanting to taste/drink all.

I think it has been too long since i last saw you (last time was when, Jal's place in 2008?), and you don't remember i can be a very serious or very absurd person.

So would you sell your bottles of VCC or Magdelaine?

Sorry, missed the humor. And there are people who feel that there is some kind of moral failing selling wine.
And to your most important question, yes I would sell at a high price, but I have far too much to drink in my lifetime. If the question is would I sell all of it and swear never to buy another bottle, I am not so sure. If someone offered a million dollars for this, yes I would probably take it.

The old joke “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” “Yes”

“Would you sleep with me for $50”

“What kind of a girl do you think I am?”

“We have established that; we are just negotiating the price.”

[marcs]

The old joke “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” “Yes”

“Would you sleep with me for $50”

“What kind of a girl do you think I am?”

“We have established that; we are just negotiating the price.”

When I was young and first heard this I thought it was a clever take. Now that I'm older and have seen more of the world I realize that the difference between a $50 whore and a million dollar whore is all-important, and there are very few powerful people who entirely avoid being "that kind of girl". But perhaps I'm too cynical .

[Nicklasss]

Good joke.

So considering i have been enjoying wine for the last 27-28 years, and that i never sold any bottle (even if i already bough few bottles with the objective to sell back later), so 8 for me.

[DavidG]

The old joke “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” “Yes”

“Would you sleep with me for $50”

“What kind of a girl do you think I am?”

“We have established that; we are just negotiating the price.”

When I was young and first heard this I thought it was a clever take. Now that I'm older and have seen more of the world I realize that the difference between a $50 whore and a million dollar whore is all-important, and there are very few powerful people who entirely avoid being "that kind of girl". But perhaps I'm too cynical .

Not cynical, realistic. And I agree, though it's still funny.

I voted #3. I've sold and continue to sell wines that have appreciated massively. Not all of the bottles though. I always keep and drink at least 1 or 2.

My passion for wine outstrips logic. I will no doubt die with a moderately full cellar.

[Jay Winton]

In today's world, I say "Never say Never". Next to last option

[JimHow]

I will no doubt die with a moderately full cellar.

That's an interesting statement, David, I have been wondering the same thing myself.
The way it's looking, I expect I'll have a "moderately full cellar" as well.

[DavidG]

I will no doubt die with a moderately full cellar.

That's an interesting statement, David, I have been wondering the same thing myself.
The way it's looking, I expect I'll have a "moderately full cellar" as well.

My cellar is much smaller than yours after downsizing. I thought I'd stop buying, and would have little left at the end. Then I realized that my buying moratorium only applies to new vintages. I can't resist backfilling if I run across something I want and I doubt that will ever stop.

It's all in CellarTracker. I've left instructions with my username and password and names of a few auction companies for after I go.

[AKR]

Don't think I'd didn't notice that snide little attack on GPL.

[JoelD]

Sorry, missed the humor. And there are people who feel that there is some kind of moral failing selling wine.
And to your most important question, yes I would sell at a high price, but I have far too much to drink in my lifetime. If the question is would I sell all of it and swear never to buy another bottle, I am not so sure. If someone offered a million dollars for this, yes I would probably take it.

The old joke “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” “Yes”

“Would you sleep with me for $50”

“What kind of a girl do you think I am?”

“We have established that; we are just negotiating the price.”

Winston Churchill either coined this or at least made it famous right? Very good comeback to Nic's post I think. I've always enjoyed this saying/analogy.

[JoelD]

Good joke.

So considering i have been enjoying wine for the last 27-28 years, and that i never sold any bottle (even if i already bough few bottles with the objective to sell back later), so 8 for me.

In all seriousness, Nic. My counter opinion to yours here is that I don't think you fall into the (excessive) collector category like many do that are posting on this thread. Since you have much less wine, and buy to consume, I don't believe that it is fair to compare your strategy to someone like Musigny or Comte or even me or Marcus. All of us having multiple thousands of bottles.

It is a very fair thing to keep your money in other assets and investments. But there is no problem with loving something, spending a lot of time and energy thinking about it, researching and then using those skills and time to also make some money (or really just cover some of our drinking costs). I fall into about 3-4 of the categories you listed and I don't think there is any problem with selling to make up for Overbuying.

[stefan]

Joel, the joke is usually attributed to George Bernard Shaw.

[Nicklasss]

Joel, i understand your point. There are no problems and the honor thing related to selling wines is a joke. Anybody can sell wines (or not) that they have 1 or 1 million bottles in their cellar, no problem. The poll is just to try to have an idea of the reasons that will make people sell their wines, or not, and discuss about it.

But, I would like to know what is your definition of "the (excessive) collector category"? And i could understand why that would draw a line between me and some other BWEers?

[stefan]

Still being the acquisition phase of my career, I approve of others selling wine. For the same reason, I dislike overbidding on mature Bordeaux, especially by those of you who already have too much wine. I mean, give those of us who really need another thousand or so bottles a chance.

[JoelD]

Joel, i understand your point. There are no problems and the honor thing related to selling wines is a joke. Anybody can sell wines (or not) that they have 1 or 1 million bottles in their cellar, no problem. The poll is just to try to have an idea of the reasons that will make people sell their wines, or not, and discuss about it.

But, I would like to know what is your definition of "the (excessive) collector category"? And i could understand why that would draw a line between me and some other BWEers?

My response to you was based on many other opinions and comments that you have made on the matter in the past. Although the fact that you felt the need to label it as honor reiterates that. Joking or not. Most jokes have some truth right? You're certainly entitled to your opinions.

Even the "excessive" collector category is fluid of course, depending on age, quantities of wine drunk/shared. I would define the excessive category as someone who has more wine than they would likely Actually drink themselves and continue to buy. For reference/examples. Jim and David do not seem to fall into this category, even though they have large collections. Others have way too much wine, buy too much wine and so we try to sell it as tastes change, for profit/offset costs or just to trim cellar quantities and portfolio diversification. And then there is Stefan. He is on his own level.

All that said, my point is just that there are many different ways to approach this hobby/passion and even profession for some people here. No different from stocks. Some are day traders, some just buy and hold, some just invest in 401k and funds, some barely do at all. Even though this is a "hobby" or lifelong passion, it can be an expensive one. Given that, each should approach it how they see fit. Personally I like to wear a lot of hats and fit at least 4 of your categories. And I don't think anyone should judge for that, if anything I think some of us should be judged way more for how much wine we buy. Definitely not how much we decide to sell back

[Nicklasss]

My program is probably "bugged" or "hacked", as i can't understand some of your points Joel. I will need help here.

Is there a psychologist here to explain me why i don't know why i would not make jokes when i truely think i made some? Is it because there is no Château Lauraine (the first name of my mother) in Bordeaux?

Seems like I fit your definition of "the (excessive) collector category", as i drink wines regularly, and my cellar contains always more bottles with time. But i thought i was not, from your first post? Can the real (excessive) collector category like Musigny, Comte or Marcs correct the definition? Or David or Jim stating the definition of a non (excessive) collector category?

Can stefan, that knows mathematics well, explain to me "what is too much wines"?

Of course, thanks nothing it's Friday, a perfect day to have some fun on BWE. Maybe i should be back to appreciation of Bordeaux wines

[JimHow]

I thought it was a very witty poll myself, Nicola, an obvious toungue-in-cheek play on our extreme high obsession with the fine wines of Bordeaux. Along the lines of an "exorcist" being required to purge the Burgundy demon. It is because of our irreverence, among other charming qualities, that we are "the best internet wine web site in the world...."

[DavidG]

Still being the acquisition phase of my career…

I think we all need to acknowledge Stefan’s pre-eminence here. Truly the BWE Buddha. The path to enlightenment is filled with purchases ahead of us and empty bottles behind us.

To the question of what defines an “excessive collector,” my initial reaction was to say someone who accumulates wine simply to have it. Not to drink it or sell it. Just to have it. Then I thought that it all depends on your frame of reference. Someone could meet that definition with only a few bottles. Or with tens of thousands. So it’s too subjective to pin down. Perhaps it’s like pornography. Impossible to define but obvious when seen.

[JoelD]

Nic, I definitely believe the post was said as a partial joke/tongue in cheek. Just that there is Some truth to it as well. Purely based on your previous comments about selling wines.

I think you would fit the excessive wine drinker category but probably not collector. I think it could be defined fairly simply now that I think about it. Someone that continues to buy more wine than they are consuming. Especially if they are buying a lot more wine than consuming. I currently fall into that category. I have a wine buying addiction. However to offset this, I try to sell some when it makes sense.

Maybe it is like porn then, David.

[Musigny 151]

There are quite a few people who do indeed feel that anybody selling wine is going straight to hell. Hence my reaction. But I know I will see most of you there, if not for the crime of selling wine, for something else.

An interesting debate though. Defining and reducing the categories of obsessive collector. I know most of the profits I make in wine goes into more wine, so that makes me a hoarder, a collector, an investor and to an outsider, a weirdo. I view a friend’s $65k audio system the same.