Second Wine Thread [2015 Saint-Jacques de Siran]

[AKR]

Some years ago AlexR had a good overview of secondary bottlings, even conducting a rather rare panel of many of them all at once, which he covered in this thread: https://www.bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com ... hp?p=46359

Poking around my offsite, I've gathered up a few myself too, and will be tasting through them, and putting notes/pix into this consolidated thread. And of course, others are most welcome to join the merriment, and sharing of notes as well.

As Julian Marshall has noted the label of Blason d'Issan looks almost like its big brother, so much so that when I pulled a 2012 from a box, I had actually grabbed the wrong bottling, and had gotten all the way to cutting the capsule off the grand vin before I realized that I'd rather save the flagship until it was fully mature. I had not had their second wine before, and the bottle had been squirreled away near release, so I didn't have the mental memory of what it looked like. There is no clever cellar management software or organizational structure imposing order on the chaos!

13% abv , conventional cork, little sediment in bottle or glass

The 2012 Blason d'Issan [Margaux] is a polite, medium bodied, rouge that has only a hint of red fruited Margaux berries. The structure is on the soft side, with tannins resolved and low acidity. I'm sure it will continue to keep, but given that there was no evolution on the 2nd day of being open, it's ideal for consumption today. The color is still on the ruby side, with no bricking. With lots of swirling, I pick up some leather and then cedar.

pecan crusted, butter flied big plump (1.25 lb!) trout

This vintage of Blason is a polished wine, but does not speak of 'place' to me. That may be an aspect that is overhyped anyways, as what I was really looking for was a red wine that I could imbibe with white fish. And one of the universally acknowledged most important wine pairing rules is to combine elements that (quasi) rhyme; eventually I was able to determine that Blason d'Issan and Fresh Water Fish'an were a lawful and valid combination.

Cardiologist Trigger Warning: panfried in mass volumes of butter

Overall, this rouge is a delicious, refined wine that will impress a consumer looking for a elegant Bordeaux. It's a great example to demonstrate the difference between a coarse Lodi AVA blend, or a chunky Languedoc AOC. Maybe a brighter line of acidity would have paired better with supper, but I rarely buy/keep/drink high acid reds, e.g. Barbera and blends. But a hardcore BWE looking for a weeknight wine of character, typicity and value ($20) this might lightly underwhelm, thus it gets a B+ on the scorecard. (The labor intensive preparation for the fresh water trout merited an A though, as evidenced by the bad etiquette my otter+hyena family displayed when they realized J might not finish her slab....)

An open question: how might this do in a blind panel against equivalent peers todays's consumer might choose from - 10 year old d'Angludet or La Tour de Mons etc. It is very strong against the dusty examples of "$20 Margaux AOC" I remember from decades ago. Perhaps stefan can share some context around that....

PS: I forgot to mention that Musigny151 has hosted great events with Emmanuel Cruse that we've attended, and not only does he make interesting wines at d'Issan, he's an unusually handsome & well dressed Bordelais!

[Comte Flaneur]

Arv - when Alex, Patrick and I visited D’Issan on that surreal misty morning in late October in the D’Issan moated-wonderland with elves and fairies, when we got to the tasting room we tried the 2017 Blasson against the GV. The difference was not all that marked.

[AKR]

The last couple of nights we've been delighted with the 2016 Le Marquis de Calon Segur [St Estephe] a deuxieme I don't think I've ever had before, and I think my nomenclature may even be correct, since IIRC the estate has a seldom seen 3rd wine too.

conventional cork closure, minimal sediment on final glass, 14% abv on the label

The wine is wearing a purple robe with no lightening, or even rubying yet. I get vanilla/oak on the nose at first, then sandalwood and red raspberry. It's very full bodied, and I wonder if the stated abv is tilted low, within disclosure tolerances. On the palate it's richly fruited, but also structured, and consumption today might be better with fatty foods. To wit: I made a kale/pancetta quiche, along with a simple cheese one for the minions, to go with this. I have not tasted the grand vin in recent vintages, but the flavor density is about 25 seconds for this. That's lovely, but likely to be less concentrated than its big brother. This St Estephe is drinking well today, with a Vinturi, and I'd expect it to be best over the next 5+ years or so. For my palate, this well balanced 2016 gets an A- in the ledger.

A kale/pancetta quiche, plus a regular cheese one, and unfortunately I didn't adjust the cooking time (to reflect two and more thermal mass) so they needed a few extra minutes after this pic

[robert goulet]

That quiche though

[Ianjaig]

Thanks for the note.

I'm a big fan of Le Marquis de Calon Segur which offers exceptional value in my opinion. I have a few 16s of this but haven't opened any yet as for a second wine, they do reward cellaring. I remember having a few Le Marquis de Calon Segur O9s with around 10 years of age on them, and they were singing.

[AKR]

14% abv, conventional (half soaked) cork, very light sediment despite a dozen years

Many years ago I had inquired here on BWE over where to find La Parde de Haut Bailly, the second wine from the American banker owned property. The kommentariat had given me some leads, and I ended up picking this 2010 from JJ Buckley, and it went into the cellar, only getting pulled a few weeks ago. I had never had their second wine before but the 2010 La Parde de Haut Bailly [Pessac Leognan] is a good wine, drinking well today. Still on the dark ruby side, with no lightening at the edges, with oregano and dried cherry on the nose. I don't pick up earth/char/smoke like some classic aged Graves might offer. On the palate, a little structure, then black cherry fruit on a medium body with low acidity. The cepage is 2 parts of sauvignon, 2 parts merlot, 1 part franc; perhaps the latter is where that subtle minty/oregano/herbal note comes from. If one was supposed to be able to identify an AOC by smell/taste, it may not be showing typicite yet, but it's a solid citizen. According to my inbox search, I purchased this 2-3 years years after release for $28; current vintages run $40+. Like many second wines, it's hard to see the value at that level (compare this to a comparable red Graves the 2010 Chantegrive for example) but it's not a huge premium to have some linkage to the well regarded flagship. In my ledger, I'll slot it into the B+ zone, but would not add it to my watch list.

I've started keeping crepe batter in the fridge...so there was a round of savory or sweet crepes (swiss cheese, or strawberries/condensed milk, or bananas & caramel)

[AKR]

Color is quite the bright ruby, no?

Some years ago I had picked up the 2015 Les Tourelles de Longueville [Pauillac] from Costco, and finally got around to pulling the cork on it, even though it had been slated since the fall (!) for consumption. The back label had the MISA import tag, so it was effectively a direct import for the warehouse chain. I haven't had this that I can recall, and I'm not sure if this can be truly considered a true 2nd wine, i.e. barrels that didn't make the cut for the grand vin. I thought at one point BWE had determined this was actually a different vineyard that always went into this bottling, but I don't know, and rarely see/read anything about this, other than its supposedly merlot heavy, when the other bottling -- Gryphon -- leans on cabernet. Over three days I find Tourelles to be soft/loose with little structure, which might be because it was too warm (62F-65F), but could also be blamed on the cepage. It feels like a 'restaurant claret' and shows little of the usual AOC cues. Medium bodied, 13.5% abv, bright ruby robe, and some rhubarb on the nose, then currant on the palate. Tannins were either resolved, or never present. It's a sound, pleasant, but uninteresting and overpriced Pauillac, clocking in at the B- or B zone on my scorecard. One cool aspect is that it's in a brown bottle(!), which I didn't expect; my recollection is that Pichon Baron used green bottles for their flagship.

I'm making another platter of enchiladas, which doesn't go with the red at all, other than I used red sauce

[AKR]

Over three days, the 2015 Saint-Jacques de Siran [Bordeaux Superieur] is nice, but nothing memorable. The label states 14% abv, and I don't think it's a 'true' second wine, but rather a vineyard parcel near the main Siran holdings but outside Margaux AOC. There are a few other estates, like Haut Bages Liberal and Beychevelle, which bottle up wine vaguely around them, and allow the label to allude to the flagship grand vin. Good dark color, some coffee on the nose, and although it does not taste of oak, supposedly it does get some of that treatment. It is organic as well and certified HVE3. The cepage includes a big slug of petit verdot, which is a curiosity, but perhaps will grow more normal as the weather changes. My bottle was a gray market import, but the official importer (Bowler) offers this for $20, which seems like a heavy lift based on the appellation name alone, but perhaps the Siran linkage can make it work. On my scorecard, this chewy red is a B.

[AlexR]

If only understanding and appreciating fine wine weren't so damned complicated! Second wines are a good illustration of this.

Some consumers want "only the best" and shun them alogether, perhaps making an exception with regard to the first growths.
Others are afraid of getting burnt, of ending up with a pale imitation of the grand vin and not getting their money's worth.
Still others have a very open mind, but wonder, as has been stated above, if a second wine is better than (in the Médoc) a good and possibly less costly cru bourgeois.

For me, this is a bit like entry level Bordeaux and, in particular, the Cötes regions.
You find a bit of everything, so generalizations can be tricky.

As Ian noted, when we visited Issan, the gap between grand vin and second wine was pretty small.
Sometimes, on the contrary, second wines can be pretty expensive and not really shine.
The only way you're going to see what is what is by trial and error. You can console yourself that this is a much less expensive exercise than buying Burgundy!

Alex R.

[Racer Chris]

The second wine of Ch Siran is "S de Siran".

[Racer Chris]

I just drank a 2015 Blason d'Issan on Friday. Apart from having a bit more oak signature than I prefer, it's drinking well now.

[Ianjaig]

Had Labegorce's second wine tonight - Zede Labegorce 2019 which I thought was very good. Quite unlike its more feminine big brother (or should that be big sister?) though. This was chunky, gritty, tannic and full bodied - very traditional in style. Excellent value.

[jckba]

2000 Reserve de Comtesse

So Saturday I found myself in a Szechuan joint in Milford CT amongst a bunch of wine friends for dinner and one of them brought the pictured above. This had a lovely nose that was dominated by bell pepper and earthy, dark fruit tones that followed through on the lighter styled palate. 91 and would very much like to revisit this with a more tame pairing as the spicy Chinese food most definitely impacted my sense of taste that night.

[AKR]

Wow that's a blast from the past. I went through a half case of that 2000 Reserve de Comtesse when it was young, and my recollection was that it was a bit greenish and underwhelming, especially when compared to the 1996 version of it, which was one of the best 2nd's I've had over the years.