2010 Haut Bergey Pessac Leognan revisited

[Claudius2]

I tried the first bottle from the case a few months back.
I gather some did not like it much but I thought it was a good rather than great wine.

The second bottle was again decanted and left for an hour or so.
Colour is just like the 2010 tasting last week - that pinky/purple rim and dark red/black core.
Similarly the nose is muted and I just think that these wines are not showing well.
A lot of swirling and sniffing was needed.
The alcohol won’t please traditionists.
It says 14% ABV but seems higher and seems to upset the balance somewhat.
It did blow off a little but I’ve never liked spirits anyway.

The fruit is soft though I do notice that rather loose structure.
There is some oak though it isn’t overdone and there is some savoury characters which I didn’t get last week with the Pessac wines.
The weakness here is the fruit. Yes there is some smoky dark fruit and a touch of cherry and blueberry but it is too soft.
The previous bottle seemed a bit richer and had a touch of mocha but I am finding the alcohol too much in this bottle. The wine is actually okay - I am analysing it rather than just drinking it - but I am worried that this is not a wine I would ever have picked as Pessac Leognan in any other decade.

There were only two cases of Pessac wines I bought from 2010 and I just can’t work them out. Maybe I am just becoming old and still think it is the 1980’s but some Pessac wines from that decade were among the very best wines I have ever tried.

Cheers
Mark

[stefan]

I bought a case of the 2010 Haut-Bergey some years ago and tried one bottle three years ago. It was undrinkable. I'll try another bottle when I can muster up the courage.

[JimHow]

2010 Haut Bergey sucks.

[DavidG]

My experience was similar. I gave up on Haut Bergey after the 2010.

[Claudius2]

Stefan and Jim
I hope this isn’t the style of Pessac wines we can expect since 2010. I’d never bought this wine before and took a punt on it due to good reviews. A check of Bordoverview shows it got reviews in the 92-94 range and 16 from Jancis Robinson who tends to dislike hi alc modern style wines.

The first bottle a few months back didn’t seem so overtly alcoholic and the fruit, while ripe, wasn’t a complete muddle. Seriously the first bottle was akin to the Domaine Chevalier with loose knit but decent fruit. The first sip yesterday and we both noticed the alcohol and later, a rather harsh aftertaste. Some variation may have been food related but I always sip the wine without food and then with it. It didn’t go well with Chinese style pork but it sort of did with Steak Diane which was already loaded with red wine and brandy.

So further Pessac buys are off my agenda for the time being until I can get a handle on style. May check older wine prices but hard to find here.

In the meantime I’m still a bit nonplussed.
C’est la vie.
Mark

[AKR]

"If you are not loving H-B, you need another glass! Did God not give us two hands after all?"



https://www.forbes.com/sites/tmullen/20 ... 8801d371ff

[JimHow]

It just needs to be consumed upon release.
I did not like the 2010 Barde Haut either, although I was pleasantly surprised by the excellent 2015 Barde Haut within the past year.

[DavidG]

Stefan and Jim
I hope this isn’t the style of Pessac wines we can expect since 2010.

…

So further Pessac buys are off my agenda for the time being until I can get a handle on style. May check older wine prices but hard to find here.

In the meantime I’m still a bit nonplussed.
C’est la vie.
Mark

By all means do more research before diving back into the Pessac pool, but please don’t extrapolate from one under-achiever to the entire commune.

To my palate, Pessac is more distinct from the N Medoc communes than any of the N Medoc communes are from each other. And since Pessac is my favorite, it would be a crying shame if they all lost their distinctiveness. I’m thinking/hoping Haut Bergey is not the canary in the coal mine here.

[AKR]

Maybe there is a tradeoff - that cigar/char bouquet, vs. the lush/big fruit on the palate. That 00 de Fieuzal (rouge) I had recently had one of the better classic Red Graves nose I can recall. But if one put a clothespin on the nose, and could only experience the mouth flavors, a lush Haut Bergey might have bested it, blind.

It seems like its ok to have all kinds of styles. There's room for rib eye on the plate, as well as tofu (at least Mapo style!)

[Claudius2]

Stefan and Jim
I hope this isn’t the style of Pessac wines we can expect since 2010.

…

So further Pessac buys are off my agenda for the time being until I can get a handle on style. May check older wine prices but hard to find here.

In the meantime I’m still a bit nonplussed.
C’est la vie.
Mark

By all means do more research before diving back into the Pessac pool, but please don’t extrapolate from one under-achiever to the entire commune.

To my palate, Pessac is more distinct from the N Medoc communes than any of the N Medoc communes are from each other. And since Pessac is my favorite, it would be a crying shame if they all lost their distinctiveness. I’m thinking/hoping Haut Bergey is not the canary in the coal mine here.

David
Not sure if you read my notes on the 2010 tasting but within a few days I’ve gulped down Haut Bergey, Domaine de Chevalier, SHL and Haut Bailly and there is a common thread of ripeness and softness without the structure I’d historically associate with Pessac Leognan.

The Haut Bergey was, in comparison with the others, a step down. The alcohol is too much and the fruit is thrown out of balance. The others were reasonably well balanced but still the structure wasn’t what I hoped for. The Leoville Barton and particularly Pontet Canet had more bouquet and fine grained though ripe tannins, despite all showing the style of 2010.

I did not say any of these wines are typical, rather, I have drunk numerous vintages of each of these wines (less so Haut Bergey, not a wine I have much experience with) and the 2010’s were unlike any prior vintage I’ve tried.

I have never liked high alcohol wines and putting Pessac aside, I’ve been more critical of Australian wines particularly Barossa and McLaren Vale wines. Yet I am now seeing some producers reign in the ripeness and alcohol after a few decades of flirting with what is known as “dead fruit” character in Australia. Haut Bergey was pushing that paradigm.

Historically I’d agree entirely that Pessac wines were a unique style - which I’d also say about several other regions, notably Margaux and Pomerol.

I hope that all regions can maintain there character. In a world crowded with so many labels, regions
and grape varieties, the magic of wine is at least partly due to stylistic identity.

Cheers
Mark

[DavidG]

Mark, oh yes I read your notes from the 2010 tasting with great interest. Very concerning, though not consistent with my own experiences over the past year or two with different 2010s than those in your tasting.

I posted my 2010 notes in that thread, including one on Haut Bergey. It got a very good but not very interesting rating from me. It was the worst of the 2010s I’ve tasted recently. And it’s not just the 2010 Haut Bergey that has been less than exciting. It’s off my buy list. Based on my limited sampling, I would blame the estate and not the vintage or the commune.

I suppose that’s a convoluted way of saying I don’t think 2010 Haut Bergey is representative of the 2010 vintage or of Pessac in general. At least I hope not. If they all go to 14-15% ABV, I’ll worry.

[Claudius2]

David
I am pretty sure that the Haut Bergey is higher than the stated 14%.
I'm not saying that they are being dishonest - but 14% is a rounded number anyway.

I am now seeing with some regularity 15% or above alcohol in Bordeaux.
I thought that such levels were more common in St Emilion but now they are not uncommon elsewhere.
The 2005 Terte Daugay says 15% on the label and tastes more like 18%. When I first reviewed it, I said THIS is a St Emilion???

If you ever make it to Singapore, I will happily pour a few aged Australian shirazes that received huge points from the usual suspects.
Admittedly they tasted fine young if you can accept a sledgehammer and not freshness and balance.
But even then, they were better to taste than drink. The joke in Australia is that they go well with barbequed brontosaurus steaks.
After 12-15 or so years, and even in magnums, they are almost undrinkable and the auction prices have collapsed - so clearly I'm not the only sceptic.
At around the same age as the 2010 Haut Bergey is now, many of these quite expensive and mega point wines were a mess.
And it surely wasn't storage as they never left professional storage since the day they were purchased, typically cellar door.

At the same time, the same vintage shiraz wines from the exact same sub-region that had lower alcohol, were fine.
I only buy Barossa shiraz these days from two or three producers, and they have always made well balanced, medium bodied wines that age well.
And the same producers don't overload their wines with oak.

The argument is however still going on in Australia. A wine writer - who I used to go to tastings with a few decades ago - keeps writing that there is a place for these high alcohol wines and even has the temerity to say that they are misunderstood. Oh well.

Irrespective of the region, winemaker, vintage, whatever, the trend to high alcohol is putting me off big time.
The few importers I buy from were initially surprised when I asked the ABV of every wine, and now put the number in emails (for everyone to see).

cheers
Mark

[DavidG]

Thank you for the invite Mark. I’ll take you up on opening some bottles if I’m ever in Singapore, and happy to bring some. Likewise if you’re ever in the DC area. But we can pass on the Oz ooze-monsters LOL! I was burned on those back when I was still following Parker as his palate started to burn out. Mid to late ‘90s Greenock Creek, Noon, Henry’s Drive, Noon, Torbreck, I could go on. They all went off to auction. Lesson learned, and no need to repeat it. Though apparently I was a slow learner and did repeat it with 2007 Châteauneuf…

High alcohol isn’t necessarily a death knell, but when it gets above 14% there aren’t many wines that can carry it well, and fewer (any???) that develop the magic in the bottle with age.

[Dionysus]

Bit of thread drift here, but are there any wine regions or wines styles which can carry high ABV quite well?

Port is a obvious example I guess, at roughly 20%, and gets immeasurably better with age. I'd argue that Amarone della Valpolicella is another, but both of these would fall into the sweet category.

Any dry wines that potentially get better with age? I've a small number of high ABV wines (≈15%) from Portugal (Duoro) and Spain (Ribera del Duero and some Rioja)...from better performing vintages over the past 10 years or so. Is there any possibility that these will get better with age? Or should I consume at my leisure...

[Claudius2]

Conor
Some yrs ago I would probably argue that Grenache based wines like Chateauneuf and South Aust styles could carry the alcohol but these days I’m not sure. Mourvèdre is another possibility from anywhere - Spain, Southern France or Australia but most of these wines were never made for long ageing. In Victoria, Durif is seen as a wine that can carry the alcohol partly as the wine is so dense and dark.

I know personal tastes vary, but my view is that, like some hi alc St Emilions and Aussie bruisers, they are tasty when drunk young in small quantities. Yet the masses of fruit mature and the alcohol pokes out with age. The Wild Duck Creek 2005 magnum I drank at Christmas is a good example. Tasted great CD all those years ago and was very expensive. Oh well. I’ve also drunk a few Chateauneufs this year at 15% and 15.5% which after 7-8 years are showing that same profile.

The same paradigm applies for whites. Some new world Chardonnay and white Burgundy from warmer vintages hits 15% now and that worries me. Rhone whites can also be cloyingly alcoholic and too Low in acid and minerality for me.

One factor leading to high points with these monsters is that they stand out in tastings. It’s like death metal played at a million decibels at a folk music concert. After several heavy wines you can’t taste anything else. The taste stays with you - not to mention blackened teeth an tongue- for some time.

So I’m giving a qualified NO answer accepting different palates and the seduction of powerhouse wines at tastings. And of course there will always be exceptions. In my case I’m once bitten twice shy.

Cheers
Mark

[DavidG]

One factor leading to high points with these monsters is that they stand out in tastings. It’s like death metal played at a million decibels at a folk music concert. After several heavy wines you can’t taste anything else. The taste stays with you - not to mention blackened teeth an tongue- for some time.

Cheers
Mark

Love this analogy. Pretty much agree with everything else Mark posted in his response.

After getting burned trying to age high octane Shiraz (Wild Duck Creek was a poster boy) back in the ‘90s, I should have learned my lesson. But I had to take a remedial course in 2007 Châteauneuf. As much as I hate dogma, I’m not expecting aged complexity or magic in the bottle from anything at 15% ABV or higher. Maybe 14.5%, I dunno.

I can enjoy a glass or two of those types of wines on occasion. Sometimes a little heavy metal can be a refreshing reminder of my youthful exuberance. Emphasis on little. I call them cocktail wines. They’re not really for drinking over the course of an evening. Or, apparently, aging.

[stefan]

What is the optimal percentage of alcohol for a left bank classified estate in an average good year? For me 11 - 12.5 percent is a good range, so I am very unhappy with the modern tendency to have 13.5% and up.

[Dionysus]

Thanks Mark, David.

I'm not inclined to disagree with the advice given. Might keep one or two bottles in the name of science, but looks like I have a case or two of high(ish)-octane wines to get through over the next little while. Much are 4/5 years old, so will try to consume within the next year or two.

[DavidG]

I'm mostly warning against future purchases. Don't sock away cases and cases of the stuff.

Nothing wrong with aging a few to see for yourself. Especially if you already own them and don't particularly like them young. Not much to lose. If you like their youthful exuberance, might as well partake.

Just don't sock away cases and cases of the stuff.