Bordeaux QPR - 1st Growths

[Dionysus]

Interesting in the forum’s thoughts on this subject matter…as the thread title suggest, which RED wines, in your opinion, represents the best and worst value for money amongst each of the 1855 classified growths. And why.

For me, there are a small, select, number of Chateau’s that seemingly punch above there weight in terms of delivering QPR. These observations have been gleamed from my own personal tasting experiences (vintages spanning over the past 15 years (yes, I know, but I’m new to the game)), and supported by Critic scores (something which is contentious in itself, and worthy of a separate discussion).

While most would agree that Lynch Bages deserves a placing higher than its lowly 5th Growth standing, it wouldn’t qualify as a good QPR wine for me as the current release prices are closer to those of a mid-range 2nd Growth. The same principal would apply for the likes of Palmer & Pontet-Canet, etc.

[Dionysus]

I'll start us off.
A note on the 1st growths; a tricky one to begin with, as one could easily make a strong argument that none offer a decent QPR, given the lofty prices. In saying that, all five are simply stunning wines, often perfection in a glass. Perhaps unsurprisingly, of all the growth categories, I have the least amount of tasting experience of the 1st growth properties.

1st Growth Best QPR: Haut-Brion. The smallest of the five in term of acreage planted, Haut-Brion represents the truest expression of the original 1855 classification. While the size of all other First Growths has increased substantially since that time, HB is the only one to have remained the same size – 53ha in 1855 and 53ha today. To give you approximate figures, Latour had 40ha in the 1890s, while today it stands at 92ha. Lafite had 74ha planted in 1864, today it is close to 110ha. While Mouton was 55ha in 1855 and is now 83ha. Margaux recorded a more modest increase of 5ha, from 75ha to 80ha. Pricing for HB is generally towards the bottom of the five, so this is enough for me to give my top vote. Margaux would be next in line; when on a “going” year, it’s simply mind blowing, my favourite 1st.

1st Growth Worst QPR: Mouton Rothschild. While I think it is deserving of its 1st Growth status (a separate debate), MR represents the worst value for money amongst the five. While not the most expensive of the first growths, it doesn’t have the alure or prestige of the original four.

[JCNorthway]

Interesting topic for discussion. My personal experience is not broad enough that I feel comfortable passing a judgment, but I will definitely enjoy seeing what others with more experience have to say on this one and the others that you have started.

[Claudius2]

Conor
I largely agree despite choking a bit on the proposition that any first growth is good value.

Worst value here is Lafite which sells at a premium in Asia as it is listed as the first of the first growths.

I have made the same point about Mouton. With a few exceptions like 82 and 86, it does not to my palate have the individuality the others have. The flavours remind me of Coonawarra- which isn’t bad as I really like the region, but the best wines from Coonawarra are a small fraction of the price. Tasted blind I’ve never rated it as highly as Latour, HB or Margaux.

Cheers
Mark

[JimS]

I'll take a stab at this - with the full caveat that I probably do not have as experienced of a palate as some folks on this board.....but I got bit by the wine bug HARD a few decades ago and have never looked back, chasing a lot of FGs with disposable income before getting married and starting a family

I agree with OP in having HB in 1st place - part of this for me is probably a bit emotional as this was the first FG I'd ever tasted, and it really showed me everything a First Growth could truly achieve (a half bottle of 1998 HB several years ago in a tasting along with a 1989 and 1990). I've had several since, and to me, I've always been surprised at how pricing has lagged relative to the other FGs, especially when considering the quality and uniqueness. When you incorporate quantity produced, quality, and price, this one earns my number one spot. I'll add consistency here as even on "off" vintages, this is a very accessible wine that stays true to form. i.e. if you want to experience HB on a budget, go for something like the 2002 or 2014 vintage, where you may get a slightly more austere and dialed back version of HB, but the typical HB style and fingerprint is there in spades.

2nd place for me would be Margaux - along with HB, I find Margaux to also be fairly consistent and overachieve in some otherwise underwhelming vintages. When it is on, it is on....probably achieves the highest highs of all FGs, and I am partial to Margaux as an appellation (love Palmer, love D'Issan, etc.).

3rd place for me would be Latour - a bit more pricey, and I do not find it to be objectively much better, if at all, in most vintages compared to the prior two mentions

4th place for me would be Lafite - objectively, it is the one I find to be of the highest quality in all of the FGs, but due to pricing, I can't really say this deserves a call out for being a decent QPR. There's a lot of money chasing after this label...

5th place for me is Mouton - to be honest, I personally do not view Mouton as a FG. Certain vintages, like 1982, and 1986, with the right bottles (yes, I've had so many underwhelming examples of both, but every once in a while a bottle has managed to catch lightning and they are sublime) are excellent, but I am hard pressed to think of many other vintages, outside of 2016 (which is still a wildcard as to how it develops, but I have to say the one time I've tasted it I was blown away) in recent memory where the price to value equation holds up.

I must also add that for budget conscious consumers who want a taste of these, you really can't go wrong if you can find some 375s at reasonable prices. While the 750 price equivalent may be higher, they still may serve as reasonable entries into tasting wines of this caliber. For any EP purchases, I have ALWAYS bought a healthy share of 375s for this reason - easier to open, age a bit faster so provides a nice "preview" of what is to come, etc. etc. Anyway, great topic to discuss.....looking forward to hearing others opine with more experience than myself.

[DavidG]

Haut Brion by a mile for me. My favorite first and usually the least expensive.

[Comte Flaneur]

Super tricky. Lafite is clearly the best of the firsts in my experience - we have conducted in depth tastings of mature vintages of all of them in the last four years and that was the unanimous finding, Lafite head and shoulders above the rest, with Margaux a clear second, so it would be between these two for me for best qpr, incongruous as it sounds.

Latour used to be plodding by comparison and now the quality has soared so much under Frederic Engerer it now commands a large premium over the others, even Lafite. But these vintages - 2000 and on - are not mature yet.

[Musigny 151]

Enormous subject, and very much tied in with all the attempts we made in previous threads to reclassify. I don’t think the original classification is totally relevant, partly for the reasons you gave, that it does not reflect the original actual holdings, but more importantly, the market is already speaking. The fact that the market is inherently unreliable allows us to some opportunities.

There is one major exception to my last earlier point that the classification is largely irrelevant, and that is the market for first growths. Not that they are or at least can be at the pinnacle of the best of Bordeaux. But there are plenty of candidates who reliably equal and often surpass the first growth wines. LMHB is the most obvious candidate, but I would argue that Montrose, Ducru, Palmer, Las Cases and Pichon Lalande should be promoted. The cachet of being a first growth is still strong, so these super second wines fetch half or less of their first growths cousins, despite being similar in quality.

[DavidG]

Ian, I know I’m in the minority when I rank Haut Brion first of the firsts. It’s a style thing. My prerogative, my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.

Mark, thank goodness for the super seconds still being seconds. Were they firsts, they would become unaffordable.

[stefan]

Haut-Brion.