Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

3rd Growth Best QPR: Langoa-Barton. Stablemate to its more illustrious brother, Langoa-Barton is one that offers terrific value for money costing roughly half as much as Léoville Barton. This estate is classical St Julien, fully expressing the terrior. Most recently I tried the 2008 blind and pegged it for Ducru!!! Really fantastic. It was close with the other contenders being la Lagune, Lagrange, & Marquis d'Alesme. The Irish connection may have swung it for LB!!

3rd Growth Worst QPR: Purely from a pricing perspective, the pick would have to be Palmer. The wine does deliver on quality however and is often the wine of the vintage. Thus being the case, my choice would be Giscours – this estate holds a prime location in Margaux, but for my limited palate, underdelivers on this terrior. I’ve tasted a few vintages over the past number of years, most recently 2012 (particularly disappointing), and more often that not, have been left feeling underwhelmed. I think the most recent vintages, 2019 in particular, will go someway in restoring this estates reputation. Kirwan was next on the chopping block.

In your other thread you said LLC is good QPR as a second growth despite its cost because it's as good as a first growth. By that logic in my book Palmer would be great QPR as a third growth because it's second growth quality. Super-second, even...

I like Giscours more than you but agree it should be better.

Tough one. My vote would go for D’Issan. In the Aquitaine Papers I downgraded Langoa to a fourth, but I think it is borderline between third and fourth.

I think Palmer is quite fairly priced given the quality. I regret not buying the 2019 at the bargain basement price of £999/6.

Comte Flaneur wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:15 pm Tough one. My vote would go for D’Issan. In the Aquitaine Papers I downgraded Langoa to a fourth, but I think it is borderline between third and fourth.

I think Palmer is quite fairly priced given the quality. I regret not buying the 2019 at the bargain basement price of £999/6.

Damn, some miss. I bought the junior brother Alter Ego, but should have gone the whole hog.
I think 2019 will be one of the greatest ever from Margaux. I think Chateau Margaux itself is the one I'm kicking myself most about...released €330 per bottle ex-négociant. Critic scores not the be all and end all, but received 5 perfect 100 scores.

I did purchase Rauzan-Ségla, Brane-Cantenac & Cantenac Brown, so did ok.

DavidG wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:20 pm In your other thread you said LLC is good QPR as a second growth despite its cost because it's as good as a first growth. By that logic in my book Palmer would be great QPR as a third growth because it's second growth quality. Super-second, even...

I like Giscours more than you but agree it should be better.

I never promised consistency David

I can see the argument for Palmer being in the opposite bucket.

I was going to say, after second growth, I really didn’t care whether a wine is third, fourth or fifth. But then I read the Palmer and Giscours comments, so decided to chime in.

Palmer is proof that the whole classification stinks, and is utterly irrelevant today. It is a first growth in all but rank, and so much better than any other third growth that at two to three times the price, it is actually a good value, as it is still half the price of the first growths. And what is more, you get an incredibly sexy label.

It is a little unfair to judge Giscours on the 2012, which was more miss than hit in Margaux. It took a while to turn round the estate from years of neglect, but I think they have succeeded, and Giscours is a pretty good value in the $60-70 range. You should try the 2010.

Spot on Mark with regards to Palmer as a poster boy for the irrelevancy of the 1855 classification.

I need to try more Langoa. Couple of probably poorly stored bottles way back when put me off of it.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 pm I was going to say, after second growth, I really didn’t care whether a wine is third, fourth or fifth. But then I read the Palmer and Giscours comments, so decided to chime in.

Palmer is proof that the whole classification stinks, and is utterly irrelevant today. It is a first growth in all but rank, and so much better than any other third growth that at two to three times the price, it is actually a good value, as it is still half the price of the first growths. And what is more, you get an incredibly sexy label.

It is a little unfair to judge Giscours on the 2012, which was more miss than hit in Margaux. It took a while to turn round the estate from years of neglect, but I think they have succeeded, and Giscours is a pretty good value in the $60-70 range. You should try the 2010.

I respectfully disagree (edited because my initial response came across as a trifle brusque). We have had these debates over the years but I maintain that the 1855 classification has stood the test of time remarkably well. Palmer is one of the exceptions clearly. So is Lynch. But overall the 1855 classification is totally relevant today imo. What is more remarkable is how few estates really need to be reshuffled in an updated appraisal -

She who should not be named.

Agree with others that Palmer, Calon Segur and D’Issan are the over achieving third growth properties vis a vis their counterparts.

Guys
Yeah we’ve been down this road a few times. Yet regarding the 1855 classification, it is hard on Pauillac and soft on Margaux. The latter has several second growths that are undeserving despite Palmer being under-rated, though of course not by the market.

Don’t know why Giscours is not regarded well here. Vintages since 2005 are very good and the recently tasted 2019 was excellent.

Anyway I’d say La Lagune is good QPR. I have regularly bought it since 1979 and have had very few disappointments.I have mixed views of Langoa Barton and see it as a fifth growth overall.

Good discussion here.

Nobody think of Malescot?

Seriously, for me it is a contest between La Lagune and Lagrange. I understand some 3rd are way better, including Palmer or Calon Segur, but the prices are way higher.

From my late experience with the 1976, and all the mixed vintages i tried, i guess La Lagune has that good mix of complexity, ageability, claret style, and price, that make it the real QPR of the 3rd growth.

Think about it: it is 3 times less expensive than Calon Segur, 8 times less expensive than Palmer, but is is 3 or 8 times less good?

Nicklasss wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:33 pm Nobody think of Malescot?

Seriously, for me it is a contest between La Lagune and Lagrange.

My issue with Malescot is that it is made in an over-oaked style all too frequently and if they just cut back on the new oak a tad, I think it would be much more palatable.

Be on the lookout for the 2019 Lagrange, it’s really quite good.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 pm It is a little unfair to judge Giscours on the 2012, which was more miss than hit in Margaux. It took a while to turn round the estate from years of neglect, but I think they have succeeded, and Giscours is a pretty good value in the $60-70 range. You should try the 2010.

It wasn't just 2012, but it was my most recent experience...recency bias I guess And I had to pick someone!!

And agreed re the Palmer label...stunning. There must a thread in here somewhere discussing the best Bordeaux labels?

Nicklasss wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:33 pm From my late experience with the 1976, and all the mixed vintages i tried, i guess La Lagune has that good mix of complexity, ageability, claret style, and price, that make it the real QPR of the 3rd growth.

Think about it: it is 3 times less expensive than Calon Segur, 8 times less expensive than Palmer, but is is 3 or 8 times less good?

We all know that Price and Quality are not linear!!! Flawed argument. But point taken nonetheless

Love Calon Segur, but no longer a QPR purchase. Only had La Lagune the once, but seem like a popular choice for QPR amongst the 3rd Growths. Stefan will be delighted.

stefan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:53 pm She who should not be named.

Agree with this, but would challenge the assessment of Giscours.

For me it was a difficult choice between "Stefans supermarket swill" and Giscours. La Lagune only narrowly pipped it as it is the less expensive of the two.

stefan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:53 pm She who should not be named.

Sorry can you name her as I have no idea who should be nameless.

Ianjaig wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:41 pm

stefan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:53 pm She who should not be named.

Agree with this, but would challenge the assessment of Giscours.

For me it was a difficult choice between "Stefans supermarket swill" and Giscours. La Lagune only narrowly pipped it as it is the less expensive of the two.

Which vintages of Giscours have you tasted?

Recently? The most recent was a 14 which I thought was beautiful. An 09 & 10 also, a 16 (at a tasting) and also not so long ago a 2003 which I liked (despite the vintage.). In fact, I think I’ve got one more 03 left which I need to pop open.

Are you not a fan Musigny 151?

>>
Sorry can you name her as I have no idea who should be nameless.
>>

It is good that you do not know, Mark, as you can move markets.

Ianjaig wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:12 am Recently? The most recent was a 14 which I thought was beautiful. An 09 & 10 also, a 16 (at a tasting) and also not so long ago a 2003 which I liked (despite the vintage.). In fact, I think I’ve got one more 03 left which I need to pop open.

Are you not a fan Musigny 151?

Total fan, in fact my Eureka wine was the 1979. I must have got the wrong end of the stick, as I thought you did not like it, as you were comparing it Stefan’s to “supermarket swill.”

stefan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:49 pm >>
Sorry can you name her as I have no idea who should be nameless.
>>

It is good that you do not know, Mark, as you can move markets.

Now extremely curious. And no, I do not, and never have moved markets.I wish!.

Sometimes it is called “supermarket swill”, Mark. No names as that might move the price higher despite your protestations.

Lilian Ladouys - that's a she name.



but not a third growth