The most over classified wine.

[Dionysus]

I mean, we HAVE tasted a nice Lascombes here and there, no?
To me, as much as I'm down on Lynch Bages, the most overrated wine in Bordeaux is Grand Puy Lacoste.
I'll never forget that afternoon Nicola and I were in MacArthur's, and Phil Bernstein, without any leading whatsoever, said that GPL had been "underperforming its terroir" for decades.

Have you tried the 16 Jim? Might be shut down now but is but was fantastic when I had it a few years ago...classic Pauillac, right up there with both Pichons.

[JimHow]

I did try the 2016, Dio.
I bought three more after I tried it.
I thought it was good, but not profound like other 2016s.
I like the 2014 GPL better, of which I have five bottles.
Greg Bernstein did say that he saw improvement since the daughter took over, which I believe was the 2014 vintage?

[Claudius2]

Jim
GPL is a fifth growth in the 1855 classification and the wine at the moment would reasonably be classified in recent form as a 4th or 5th.

I wasn’t exactly impressed with either the 1996 or 2000 and after 2000, it was deleted from my own personal radar as the price is, irrespective of its 1855 classification, above its quality. Yet I do recall some good vintages of GPL in the 80’s. I’d say the 1990 was the best though I liked most of the vintages in the 80’s.

In regard to Lascombes, it is a second growth in formal terms and I have never tried a vintage of it that is near that level. I was hard on the 2004 largely as it was talked up numerous critics yet it was pretty ordinary and unbalanced to me. The price of Lascombes has also increased over the years relative to other Margaux wines. Ferriere does not get much love here but I’d say it is better than Lascombes based on recent form. And whilst uneven, at least I find Ferriere to be idiosyncratic.

As for Rausan Gassies, I have tried several vintages from the 70’s onward and tried a handful of vintages at the Chateau several years ago. The people were very friendly but the wines I tried were not classed growth level. I note Izak reports improvements recently and I’d like to try it again.

Another option is Camensac yet the 2009 and 2010 were pretty good though won’t blow anyone away.
La Tour Carnet is another choice but isn’t really rated anyway. This wine, Camensac and Rausan G are not rated by the market in any case based on EP prices.

Which you prick depends on your frame of reference, if based on the 1855 classification then RG and Lascombes are my picks. If price is the yardstick then I’d still pick Lascombes but delete RG and add GPL.

But based on both Lascombes is the winner (if you can use that term in this context) with runner up trophies to RG and GPL.

As for the right bank, I can’t decide. Bit surprised Angelus is mentioned as my experience with it has been fine.

Cheers
Mark

[Musigny 151]

Angelus cannot be overclassified, as it is no longer classified.
When it was, it was an A, which put it on the same pedestal as Cheval and Ausone.

The fact that Pavie was there and even more undeserving, puts them both easily in overclassified camp.
If the classification was based on terroir, Pavie might just scape in. But the wines up to 2012 were such crap (when last I tasted them) that I would question even a B status, which is where I think Angelus still belongs.

[robert goulet]

Dufort vivens

[AlexR]

I'm much more bullish on Grand Puy Lacoste than some of you.

Jim, you are in danger of being served the wine blind by one of us and finding it to your liking! .

For my money, it should be bumped up not one, but two categories.

I see that the wine is quite well noted on Cellartracker, but then there is, of course, no need to follow the herd.
https://www.cellartracker.com/producer.asp?iProducer=97

Alex R.

[DavidG]

I'm much more bullish on Grand Puy Lacoste than some of you.

Jim, you are in danger of being served the wine blind by one of us and finding it to your liking! .

For my money, it should be bumped up not one, but two categories.

I see that the wine is quite well noted on Cellartracker, but then there is, of course, no need to follow the herd.
https://www.cellartracker.com/producer.asp?iProducer=97

Alex R.

I did just that with the 1990 GPL in March at Stu’s Ft. Lauderdale jeebus.
It didn’t get poured down the drain.

[jckba]

For my money, it should be bumped up not one, but two categories.

I feel like every so often GPL can best Lynch Bages but haven’t found a vintage where it is as good as as either of the Pichon’s with any kind of consistency, so like Alex a 3rd growth ranking seems appropriate to me.

[robert goulet]

Jim
GPL is a fifth growth in the 1855 classification and the wine at the moment would reasonably be classified in recent form as a 4th or 5th.

I wasn’t exactly impressed with either the 1996 or 2000 and after 2000, it was deleted from my own personal radar as the price is, irrespective of its 1855 classification, above its quality. Yet I do recall some good vintages of GPL in the 80’s. I’d say the 1990 was the best though I liked most of the vintages in the 80’s.

In regard to Lascombes, it is a second growth in formal terms and I have never tried a vintage of it that is near that level. I was hard on the 2004 largely as it was talked up numerous critics yet it was pretty ordinary and unbalanced to me. The price of Lascombes has also increased over the years relative to other Margaux wines. Ferriere does not get much love here but I’d say it is better than Lascombes based on recent form. And whilst uneven, at least I find Ferriere to be idiosyncratic.

As for Rausan Gassies, I have tried several vintages from the 70’s onward and tried a handful of vintages at the Chateau several years ago. The people were very friendly but the wines I tried were not classed growth level. I note Izak reports improvements recently and I’d like to try it again.

Another option is Camensac yet the 2009 and 2010 were pretty good though won’t blow anyone away.
La Tour Carnet is another choice but isn’t really rated anyway. This wine, Camensac and Rausan G are not rated by the market in any case based on EP prices.

Which you prick depends on your frame of reference, if based on the 1855 classification then RG and Lascombes are my picks. If price is the yardstick then I’d still pick Lascombes but delete RG and add GPL.

But based on both Lascombes is the winner (if you can use that term in this context) with runner up trophies to RG and GPL.

As for the right bank, I can’t decide. Bit surprised Angelus is mentioned as my experience with it has been fine.

Cheers
Mark

BobbyOrl and I had the 2000 R.Gassies last summer...was a lovely wine, but I have little exposure to this estate

Right bank....Pavie, all day

[robert goulet]

Croizet Bages, I've only tasted 1 vintage, the 2016.

Considering '16 is a strong vintage, the wine was extremely underwhelming. This is a poor reflection on the château.

[Claudius2]

Jim
GPL is a fifth growth in the 1855 classification and the wine at the moment would reasonably be classified in recent form as a 4th or 5th.

I wasn’t exactly impressed with either the 1996 or 2000 and after 2000, it was deleted from my own personal radar as the price is, irrespective of its 1855 classification, above its quality. Yet I do recall some good vintages of GPL in the 80’s. I’d say the 1990 was the best though I liked most of the vintages in the 80’s.

In regard to Lascombes, it is a second growth in formal terms and I have never tried a vintage of it that is near that level. I was hard on the 2004 largely as it was talked up numerous critics yet it was pretty ordinary and unbalanced to me. The price of Lascombes has also increased over the years relative to other Margaux wines. Ferriere does not get much love here but I’d say it is better than Lascombes based on recent form. And whilst uneven, at least I find Ferriere to be idiosyncratic.

As for Rausan Gassies, I have tried several vintages from the 70’s onward and tried a handful of vintages at the Chateau several years ago. The people were very friendly but the wines I tried were not classed growth level. I note Izak reports improvements recently and I’d like to try it again.

Another option is Camensac yet the 2009 and 2010 were pretty good though won’t blow anyone away.
La Tour Carnet is another choice but isn’t really rated anyway. This wine, Camensac and Rausan G are not rated by the market in any case based on EP prices.

Which you prick depends on your frame of reference, if based on the 1855 classification then RG and Lascombes are my picks. If price is the yardstick then I’d still pick Lascombes but delete RG and add GPL.

But based on both Lascombes is the winner (if you can use that term in this context) with runner up trophies to RG and GPL.

As for the right bank, I can’t decide. Bit surprised Angelus is mentioned as my experience with it has been fine.

Cheers
Mark

BobbyOrl and I had the 2000 R.Gassies last summer...was a lovely wine, but I have little exposure to this estate

Right bank....Pavie, all day

Robert
I tried a very young sample of the 2000 though I did not form any opinion at the time. However all other vintages I’ve tried were not classed growth. If it is a better wine then great.

Not sure if you like or dislike Pavie. It produced really nice wines from the 60’s to 1990. The 1966 was outstanding and the wines from the 80s were delicious.

I didn’t ever think Pavie needed changing. Last vintage I bought was the 2004 and I really did not think much of it. Woody, heavy and tasted more like a new world Merlot.

Cheers
Mark

[robert goulet]

Pavie is def. not my style..At.All..but I'd be interested in the Pre-Perse era Pavie

[Musigny 151]

Pavie was owned by the Vallette family. I think there was a cash flow problem, so almost no investment. I did a vertical with mixed results; they made good wines in 1961,1964 1971 and 1982 but generally it was an underperformer.

[greatbxfreak]

1950 Pavie and 1950 Troplong Mondot, run by Valette cousins at that time, tasted together in December 2016, were two beautiful wines with still a lot of life and energy. I think the main cause of selling Pavie was the unwillingness of Jean-Paul Valette's children to run the property.

Btw, Pavie Decesse has now been included in Pavie and Perse's Bellevue Mondotte is still GC.

[JimHow]

I've never understood the angst about the "new" Pavie.
I think it is a brilliant wine and, despite predictions to the contrary, the 1998s and 2000s have continued to perform brilliantly with age on them.

[DavidG]

Btw, Pavie Decesse has now been included in Pavie and Perse's Bellevue Mondotte is still GC.

Izak, is the bolded above correct? I recall that part of Pavie Decesse was transferred to Pavie about 20 years ago. I was not aware that all of Pavie Decesse was part of Pavie. I see 2021 Pavie Decesse futures on offer, so if they were completely absorbed by Pavie it must have happened very recently.

[robert goulet]

Pavie Deceased?

[robert goulet]

I must say re: Lascombes, the 2003 was quite nice, def. shows the ripeness from a warm year, but not over the top...it gives it a bit of a new world feel too, but there is no mistaken that its clearly bordeaux. I would be happy to purchase another.

[Musigny 151]

I've never understood the angst about the "new" Pavie.
I think it is a brilliant wine and, despite predictions to the contrary, the 1998s and 2000s have continued to perform brilliantly with age on them.

The 1998 was not made with Michel Rolland. It is not a bad wine.
As Jim, you would probably have guessed, I dislike everything made subsequently. I stopped tasting them with the 2014 vintage, and I hear they have dialed back.

Suffice to say that it has been a waste of a great terroir.

[greatbxfreak]

DavidG,

Yes it is correct. If you look at the published 2022 classification, it is not there.

[DavidG]

Thanks Izak, that sounds like pretty big news. I guess 2021 will be the last year of Pavie Decesse.

[robert goulet]

I've never understood the angst about the "new" Pavie.
I think it is a brilliant wine and, despite predictions to the contrary, the 1998s and 2000s have continued to perform brilliantly with age on them.

The 1998 was not made with Michel Rolland. It is not a bad wine.
As Jim, you would probably have guessed, I dislike everything made subsequently. I stopped tasting them with the 2014 vintage, and I hear they have dialed back.

Suffice to say that it has been a waste of a great terroir.

100%..though the 2000 was somewhat tolerable the last time I had it

[AlexR]

At 6-700 dollars a pop, I'm glad that 2000 Pavie is "tolerable"! .
I'm in the camp that finds modern vintages from this château overblown, overoaked, and not to my taste.

AR

[DavidG]

That’s a bit of an exaggeration Alex, but your point is well taken. The 2000 Pavie was around $200-225 on release and can be bought now in the US for $550-600. I’ll fess up to having bought a couple bottles based on critical acclaim/hype back in 2001 or so. They’re no doubt worth more at auction than in my glass.