The most over classified wine.

[Musigny 151]

Lascombes?

[Claudius2]

After the last pre-auction tasting, I’d have to say Rausan Gassies takes the trophy.
Maybe we can pool our funds and buy it out.
Cheers
Mark

[Winona Chief]

I have had many fine bottles of Lascombes from the 1970s and few from more recent vintages that were reasonably good.

On the other hand, I think Rauzan-Gassies is the easy winner in this contest - they had way more off years than any other classified Bordeaux between 1960 and 2000. The 1959 is the only one I really liked.

Chris Bublitz

[AlexR]

Interesting question.

By that, I assume you mean one that provide poorest value-for-money, *as well as* ones that show badly compared to their rank.
In other words, there's the official classification and then classifcation by market price...

If we were talking Saint-Emilion, Pavie and Angélus instantly spring to mind.

If we were talking Médoc, Jane Anson is particularly scathing about Boyd Cantenac, one of the few châteaux she downgrades in her book, but my own (limited) experience with that château is not nearly as damning as hers.

Fifth growths Croizet Bages, Camensac, Grand Puy Ducasse, and Cos Labory are arguably not better than some crus bourgeois.
(Phélan Ségur, a case in point, has really come up in the world).

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

I've never been a fan of 4th growth La Tour Carnet. Furthermore, since it's in the Haut-Médoc appellation, and can legally acquire vines anywhere within it, the area under vine has ballooned. I really don't think of it as having a specific terroir and neither do I like the style of wine.

Lascombes (another huge estate) doesn't get much love, but then it is not priced very high either...
However, if based solely on 1855, I'd have to say it should be bumped down.

I love it when estates pick themselves up by the bootstraps and boost quality. I'm thinking Pédesclaux here and, in recent vintages. Durfort Vivens.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[Musigny 151]

Was talking to my favorite UK merchant, who voted for Lascombes, his sidekick for Dufort Vivens with an honorable mention for Ferriere. I have not tasted a Ferriere to my knowledge.
He did mention that Rausan Gassies made good wines in the forties and fifties.

[Musigny 151]

Interesting question.

By that, I assume you mean one that provide poorest value-for-money, *as well as* ones that show badly compared to their rank.
In other words, there's the official classification and then classifcation by market price...

If we were talking Saint-Emilion, Pavie and Angélus instantly spring to mind.

If we were talking Médoc, Jane Anson is particularly scathing about Boyd Cantenac, one of the few châteaux she downgrades in her book, but my own (limited) experience with that château is not nearly as damning as hers.

Fifth growths Croizet Bages, Camensac, Grand Puy Ducasse, and Cos Labory are arguably not better than some crus bourgeois.
(Phélan Ségur, a case in point, has really come up in the world).

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

I've never been a fan of 4th growth La Tour Carnet. Furthermore, since it's in the Haut-Médoc appellation, and can legally acquire vines anywhere within it, the area under vine has ballooned. I really don't think of it as having a specific terroir and neither do I like the style of wine.

Lascombes (another huge estate) doesn't get much love, but then it is not priced very high either...
However, if based solely on 1855, I'd have to say it should be bumped down.

I love it when estates pick themselves up by the bootstraps and boost quality. I'm thinking Pédesclaux here and, in recent vintages. Durfort Vivens.

Best regards,
Alex R.

I am not sure this was for me, but I have had quite a few La Lagunes I like, and I think they are a pretty solid producer.

[AlexR]

I wistfully think of what the Quié wines (Rauzan Gassies and Croizet Bages) would be like under different management and with massive investment.

Rauzan Gassies in particular has a very good terroir.
To be fair, the wine is better these days than it was in the past, although it still falls far short of its potential.

Neighboring Rauzan Ségla spent a fortune in building a drainage system that Gassies might very well benefit from too.
Among other things...

I have not a single bottle of Rauzan Gassies in my cellar...
In the interest of science, if anyone reading this has a bottle, could they uncork it soon and report back?

Thanks in advance,

AR

[AlexR]

By the way, Mark, the comment about detractors of La Lagune was not at all targeting you.

I was someone else in another thread.

AR

[stefan]

I support the move of demoting La Lagune.

Every REAL BWEer knows why.

[Musigny 151]

Interesting question.

By that, I assume you mean one that provide poorest value-for-money, *as well as* ones that show badly compared to their rank.
In other words, there's the official classification and then classifcation by market price...

If we were talking Saint-Emilion, Pavie and Angélus instantly spring to mind.

If we were talking Médoc, Jane Anson is particularly scathing about Boyd Cantenac, one of the few châteaux she downgrades in her book, but my own (limited) experience with that château is not nearly as damning as hers.

Fifth growths Croizet Bages, Camensac, Grand Puy Ducasse, and Cos Labory are arguably not better than some crus bourgeois.
(Phélan Ségur, a case in point, has really come up in the world).

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

I've never been a fan of 4th growth La Tour Carnet. Furthermore, since it's in the Haut-Médoc appellation, and can legally acquire vines anywhere within it, the area under vine has ballooned. I really don't think of it as having a specific terroir and neither do I like the style of wine.

Lascombes (another huge estate) doesn't get much love, but then it is not priced very high either...
However, if based solely on 1855, I'd have to say it should be bumped down.

I love it when estates pick themselves up by the bootstraps and boost quality. I'm thinking Pédesclaux here and, in recent vintages. Durfort Vivens.

Best regards,
Alex R.

When is the new Saint Emilion one due out?

[AlexR]

Marc,

Next month.

By the process of elimination, those who have been excluded already know because letters have been sent out to those who have been accepted.

Presumably, this is why La Gaffelière "withdrew" from the classification rather than be downgraded (Ausone, Cheval Blanc, and Angélus opted out for very different reasons).

What interests me more than anything else is to see *how many* estates are classified. Their number grew greatly the last time around, and it tends to make the whole exercise seem less legitimate.

AR

[Musigny 151]

Does that mean Angelus is going to remove the stone proudly announcing its promotion?

[AlexR]

No, Marc, that was Pavie.

And just think, if they keep their classification, they will be the only "A"!

AR

[Musigny 151]

Figeac will be promoted.

[Comte Flaneur]

Figeac will be promoted.

That is what I have been betting on for the last 2-3 years, by accumulating recent vintages of Figeac.

An auxiliary bet is that if Figeac is promoted it might drag up the price of La Conseillante, which has always been a bit undervalued in a geographical context

[Comte Flaneur]

My candidates for most over classified wine would include Lascombes and Angelus.

But I have tried so little Lascombes in recent years and I remember Jim and Blanquito reporting that the 2004 is an oaky mess.

Dufort Vivens would be a candidate based on the dinner we had recently, and I was not entirely convinced by the more modern wines.

[JimHow]

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

Stefan especially loathes it, Alex.

[AKR]

I wistfully think of what the Quié wines (Rauzan Gassies and Croizet Bages) would be like under different management and with massive investment.

Rauzan Gassies in particular has a very good terroir.
To be fair, the wine is better these days than it was in the past, although it still falls far short of its potential.

Neighboring Rauzan Ségla spent a fortune in building a drainage system that Gassies might very well benefit from too.
Among other things...

I have not a single bottle of Rauzan Gassies in my cellar...
In the interest of science, if anyone reading this has a bottle, could they uncork it soon and report back?

Thanks in advance,

AR

I bought Rauzan Gassies in 2000 and 2005; both good vintages for the estate. The issue seems to be ownership's willingness to use machine picking, which really only works in years where the grapes are perfect. At least stateside, the US importers and distributors are a powerful filtering mechanism - as they won't pay to ship the middling vintages. There are few higher level growths at all using this form of harvest. I can see the merits - it can allow more passes through a vineyard, more micro harvest since a whole picking crew doesn't need to be summoned and paid for, it can be done at any hour - but of course there is no selection of best bunches or exclusion of rotten clusters.

[Nicklasss]

La Lagune is a solid Troisîème Cru Classé to me. The 2014 this weekend was excellent to great! And i would say the 2016 is even better.

So for me, the over classified wines would be :

In the Graves : de Fieuzal.

On the Right Bank : Troplong Mondot.

In the Médoc : i would say Rausan Gassies or Croizet-Bages, but i never tasted any of these. From what i have taste, i would say Tour Carnet, as the wine is good, but more a crowd pleaser than a Quatrième Cru Classé, with real complexity and distiction.

[Dionysus]

Duplicate

[Dionysus]

On the Right Bank : Troplong Mondot.

TM has been dialled back pretty significantly since the 17 vintage...by agreed, it had the turbochargers activated since the turn of the century.

Lascombes in the Medoc, Pavie on the right bank.

[jckba]

I think it’s right to strongly favor despising a wine that obliterates it’s terroir in the context of most over classified wine debate. Lascombes would get my vote too.

So I picked up a bunch of cases of the 2004 Lascombes years back on a K&L closeout for $29.99/per and while I thought I liked it in its youth, as it matured, it was always as if you had a toothpick in your mouth while tasting it.

[Musigny 151]

Pavie is an interesting case. Given the current winemaking, it is way over classified, but the terroir is far better than Angelus.

[JimHow]

Oh boy, JC, let me tell you about the '04 Lascombes....
I was with the Brothers Blanquito... I don't remember the year... we were in New York City.
Manhattan.
I'm guessing 2008ish?
Late at night...
It was a lobby....
The lobby of the Ritz Carlton Central Park South....
Me... the Brothers Blanquito, in New York City...
The possibilities literally endless.
And a fellow by the name of Alfred Tesseron....
We had just come from a dinner down in Times Square, where we were drinking a ten year vertical of his wines....
All the wines were donated by a BWEer who was not there, Mr. Timothy McCracken.
He went upstairs to fetch me a bottle of some fancy Tesseron Cognac...
In the meantime, we met a tall stunning model from Seattle...
There with her personal "pilot"....
And we uncorked a 2004 Chateau Lascombes.....

[AKR]

I think it’s right to strongly favor despising a wine that obliterates it’s terroir in the context of most over classified wine debate. Lascombes would get my vote too.

So I picked up a bunch of cases of the 2004 Lascombes years back on a K&L closeout for $29.99/per and while I thought I liked it in its youth, as it matured, it was always as if you had a toothpick in your mouth while tasting it.

I used to invest with Tom Barrack (personally through his listed vehicle, not professionally) and that era of Lascombes (American financial promoter owned) was when they were in "Max Profit Extractive Mode" with consultants running amuck salivating after scores, trying to get prices vaguely related to their 2nd growth status. (This was a tough sell to westerners, since they actually drank the wine unadulterated, as opposed to Chinese banquets/bribes etc.) It was like they had watched this movie suggesting 'Mo Oak, Mo Better' ... and they went to town. The wines were actually ok (for my plebian tastes!) when young as they appealed to the Silver Oak & steakhouse kind of clientele...

[JimHow]

Did someone say 2004 Lascombes and “oak” in the same sentence?

2004 Lascombes may be the single most over oaked wine I have ever experienced.

[Claudius2]

My candidates for most over classified wine would include Lascombes and Angelus.

But I have tried so little Lascombes in recent years and I remember Jim and Blanquito reporting that the 2004 is an oaky mess.

Dufort Vivens would be a candidate based on the dinner we had recently, and I was not entirely convinced by the more modern wines.

Ian
Absolutely agree that 2004 Lascombes was poor.
I bought halves, bottles and one magnum and tried the halves every six months or so from 2011 onward. By 2015 I saw no improvement. It was astringent, with a slightly bitter oak character. As it aged (admittedly not too long) the fruit matured a little but it remained coarse and astringent. Since then I’ve never considered buying it again.

Moving on, some of the other wines mentioned have improved in recent vintages such as Cos Labory, Ferriere and Grand Puy Ducasse. Criozet Bages based on the last vintage I tried (2010) is not as good as many CBs.

I would rate Cos Labory, GPD and Ferriere as fifth growths and their prices reflect that. I also think that many of the historically over-rated Margaux wines have improved over the years.

Camensac struggles to be a classed growth though the 2009, which I’ve gulped down several times (picked up cheaply when Carrefour left Singapore) was arguably a 5th growth but older vintages were bad. I had the 1986 and 1990 at a tasting in Australia some years ago and they were seriously awful. Serous wine making faults were evident to the point that the tasters largely agreed that they had no place in any classed growth ranking.

[greatbxfreak]

I mostly agree with AlexR:

1. La Lagune is an excellent value for money and, honestly, hasn't put a foot wrong since the 2014 vintage, which was the second vintage of cellarmaster Maylis de Laborderie, who left in January 2021, meaning the 2020 vintage was her last. I think she contributed significantly to La Lagune being so excellent in seven vintages, one after one.

2. Rauzan Gassies is improving; I think the young generation in the Quie family has more room to bring their ideas. 2018, 2019 and 2020. Not overclassified, imho.

3. Lascombes - you can't just judge the property by mentioning 2004 vintage. It was the year when present technical director, Dominique Befve, arrived from Rothschilds (Lafite). Yes, it's not consistent, and according to my friend, it often lacks body and concentration. Probably overclassified.

4. Boyd Cantenac - made fabulous 2018 and fine 2020. The proprietor is quite an old guy, and I wonder if some young generation will replace him soon. Overclassified? A little bit.

5. Angelus - not overclassified imho, especially since 2015 vintage.

[DavidG]

I'm surprised by all the hate for Angelus.
I'm no expert on Angelus, I've rarely tried it, but I'm thinking DavidG disagrees.

I think Izak double-posted in the wrong thread so I’ved move it to where it belongs…

I loved Angelus in the 80s/early 90s. I really like the 2000, ripe fruit and all. It got more extreme as I started to value a more classic restrained style, so we’ve grown apart. I bought a few 05 and 09 for old time’s sake, but none since. Over-priced? Definitely. Over-hyped? Yes. Over-classified? Maybe to an extent but not anywhere near the most over-classified.

Plus St Emilion has an entirely different classification system which is currently a joke. That makes it hard to include any of the wines from there in a discussion of the validity of the 1855 classification.

Lascombes gets my vote for most over-classified.

[AlexR]

New Saint Emilion classification will come out on the 8th of September.

Get ready for another round of controversy....

AR

[DavidG]

Any predictions Alex? Other than controversy, which has become the norm.

[Dionysus]

Any predictions Alex? Other than controversy, which has become the norm.

I think most of the controversy has already happened.

Château Angélus, Château Ausone, Château Cheval Blanc have all opted out...Ausone and Cheval Blanc noses out of joint to be in the same Category as Pavie and Angélus, and Angélus leaving a few months after, presumably to a) maintain the same perceived standing with Ausone and Cheval Blanc, and b) to differentiate itself from Pavie. Pavie's decision to remain makes sense, as the only remaining Premier Grand Cru Classé A, but they will surely change come the 8th.

Chateau La Gaffelière has also withdrawn from the classification (Premier Grand Cru Classé B in 2012), but for entirely different reasons. There's a great article here which is well worth a read for those interested https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/ ... ification/ I think I may have posted this before.

Château Figeac will most likely be promoted to Premier Grand Cru Classé A, which has been well flagged. Can't see anyone else being promoted to the "A" classification.

I had La Clotte pegged for promotion to Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but they withdrew from the classification along with Quinault l’Enclos (sibling estates of Ausone and Cheval Blanc). Pavie-Decesse maybe?

Quintus (formerly Chateau Tertre Daugay (Grand Cru Classé from 2012) and most recently, but yet to be absorbed, Chateau Grand Pontet (also Grand Cru Classé 2012)) would most likely have gone straight in at Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but I think I read that they won't be applying to join the classification.

After Chateau La Gaffelière's defection, I can't see anyone else being demoted from the "B" classification...Larcis Ducasse probably most at risk, but would be harsh considering it only gained promotion in 2012.

There'll be some additions to the Grand Cru Classé for sure (14 new additions in 2012) but not sure who has applied or not. Château Cap de Mourlin would be the one I'd pick to be demoted from the Grand Cru Classé. Guess work.

[greatbxfreak]

I know that La Confession has applied for upgrading to CC, and I expect the upgrade to happen. Jean-Philippe Janoueix is doing great at his properties.

I know also that Anabelle Cruse Bardinet from Corbin applied for an upgrade to PGCC "B". My bet is that she'll get it. Very consistent and classy St.Emilion.

I wonder if Beausejour Duffau Lagarrosse will be upgraded to PGCC "A"?

[Musigny 151]

Any predictions Alex? Other than controversy, which has become the norm.

I think most of the controversy has already happened.

Château Angélus, Château Ausone, Château Cheval Blanc have all opted out...Ausone and Cheval Blanc noses out of joint to be in the same Category as Pavie and Angélus, and Angélus leaving a few months after, presumably to a) maintain the same perceived standing with Ausone and Cheval Blanc, and b) to differentiate itself from Pavie. Pavie's decision to remain makes sense, as the only remaining Premier Grand Cru Classé A, but they will surely change come the 8th.

Chateau La Gaffelière has also withdrawn from the classification (Premier Grand Cru Classé B in 2012), but for entirely different reasons. There's a great article here which is well worth a read for those interested https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/ ... ification/ I think I may have posted this before.

Château Figeac will most likely be promoted to Premier Grand Cru Classé A, which has been well flagged. Can't see anyone else being promoted to the "A" classification.

I had La Clotte pegged for promotion to Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but they withdrew from the classification along with Quinault l’Enclos (sibling estates of Ausone and Cheval Blanc). Pavie-Decesse maybe?

Quintus (formerly Chateau Tertre Daugay (Grand Cru Classé from 2012) and most recently, but yet to be absorbed, Chateau Grand Pontet (also Grand Cru Classé 2012)) would most likely have gone straight in at Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but I think I read that they won't be applying to join the classification.

After Chateau La Gaffelière's defection, I can't see anyone else being demoted from the "B" classification...Larcis Ducasse probably most at risk, but would be harsh considering it only gained promotion in 2012.

There'll be some additions to the Grand Cru Classé for sure (14 new additions in 2012) but not sure who has applied or not. Château Cap de Mourlin would be the one I'd pick to be demoted from the Grand Cru Classé. Guess work.

Thanks Conor for the link. I have never felt that the Saint Emilion was anything but a complete waste of time. To make it seem updated, they have included some pretty strange criteria including parking and social media prescence. (How Ausone got its A classification with such lousy parking is beyond me)

And yet again, they shoot themselves in the foot. Sounds like the tasting panel is incompetent, but I suspect they mechanics of the process will only come out in litigation.

[Dionysus]

I have never felt that the Saint Emilion was anything but a complete waste of time. To make it seem updated, they have included some pretty strange criteria including parking and social media prescence. (How Ausone got its A classification with such lousy parking is beyond me)

And yet again, they shoot themselves in the foot. Sounds like the tasting panel is incompetent, but I suspect they mechanics of the process will only come out in litigation.

Oh the SE Classification is a complete joke...has been for a long time now. The 2022 Classification is even more bizarre, given the weightings differ for PGCC and GCC (see below)...why would the quality of terrior be considered more important for a GCC than a PGCC? Or is it just assumed that a PGCC must have amazing terrior?!? Who knows what their thinking is.

Yet I have a morbid curiosity about it...so am looking forward to the release of the classification on the 8th, and the inevitable fallout

Each Chateau receives a score out of 20 - one must obtain at least 17 to be granted PGCC A status, 16 for PGCC B, and 14 for GCC. For anyone interested, the criteria and weightings for 2022 are:

Element / Premier Grand Cru Classé % / Grand Cru Classé %
Tastings - 50% / 50%
Reputation, promotion and distribution - 35% / 20%
Quality of terroir - 10% / 20%
Viticulture, vinification and traceability - 5% / 10%

The 2012 criteria, at least for Premier Grand Cru Classé status was as follows:

Tastings - 30%
Reputation, promotion and distribution - 35%
Quality of terroir - 30%
Viticulture, vinification and traceability - 5%

[Musigny 151]

Quality of terroir 10-20% 🫡🫠

Worse than I thought.

What is traceability?

[DavidG]

Farce je suis, farce je fus, classement de St. Emilion ne change.

[Dionysus]

What is traceability?

Traceability of wine can be defined as a method through which anybody in the wine supply chain can be able to verify the origin and composition of wines and its conditions of storage.

Or so Google tells me!!

[Musigny 151]

Thanks Conor. It is getting weirder.
All the major chateaux are sold through negociants. So are now differentiating between negociants? Go with Moueix and get an extra brownie point?

[JimHow]

I mean, we HAVE tasted a nice Lascombes here and there, no?
To me, as much as I'm down on Lynch Bages, the most overrated wine in Bordeaux is Grand Puy Lacoste.
I'll never forget that afternoon Nicola and I were in MacArthur's, and Phil Bernstein, without any leading whatsoever, said that GPL had been "underperforming its terroir" for decades.