Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

AlexR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:25 pm Interesting question.

By that, I assume you mean one that provide poorest value-for-money, *as well as* ones that show badly compared to their rank.
In other words, there's the official classification and then classifcation by market price...

If we were talking Saint-Emilion, Pavie and Angélus instantly spring to mind.

If we were talking Médoc, Jane Anson is particularly scathing about Boyd Cantenac, one of the few châteaux she downgrades in her book, but my own (limited) experience with that château is not nearly as damning as hers.

Fifth growths Croizet Bages, Camensac, Grand Puy Ducasse, and Cos Labory are arguably not better than some crus bourgeois.
(Phélan Ségur, a case in point, has really come up in the world).

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

I've never been a fan of 4th growth La Tour Carnet. Furthermore, since it's in the Haut-Médoc appellation, and can legally acquire vines anywhere within it, the area under vine has ballooned. I really don't think of it as having a specific terroir and neither do I like the style of wine.

Lascombes (another huge estate) doesn't get much love, but then it is not priced very high either...
However, if based solely on 1855, I'd have to say it should be bumped down.

I love it when estates pick themselves up by the bootstraps and boost quality. I'm thinking Pédesclaux here and, in recent vintages. Durfort Vivens.

Best regards,
Alex R.

AlexR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:25 pm Interesting question.

By that, I assume you mean one that provide poorest value-for-money, *as well as* ones that show badly compared to their rank.
In other words, there's the official classification and then classifcation by market price...

If we were talking Saint-Emilion, Pavie and Angélus instantly spring to mind.

If we were talking Médoc, Jane Anson is particularly scathing about Boyd Cantenac, one of the few châteaux she downgrades in her book, but my own (limited) experience with that château is not nearly as damning as hers.

Fifth growths Croizet Bages, Camensac, Grand Puy Ducasse, and Cos Labory are arguably not better than some crus bourgeois.
(Phélan Ségur, a case in point, has really come up in the world).

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

I've never been a fan of 4th growth La Tour Carnet. Furthermore, since it's in the Haut-Médoc appellation, and can legally acquire vines anywhere within it, the area under vine has ballooned. I really don't think of it as having a specific terroir and neither do I like the style of wine.

Lascombes (another huge estate) doesn't get much love, but then it is not priced very high either...
However, if based solely on 1855, I'd have to say it should be bumped down.

I love it when estates pick themselves up by the bootstraps and boost quality. I'm thinking Pédesclaux here and, in recent vintages. Durfort Vivens.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:06 pm Figeac will be promoted.

I have seen in recent threads on BWE that some of you are pretty down on La Lagune. I beg to differ here. I think it holds its own just fine.

AlexR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:49 pm I wistfully think of what the Quié wines (Rauzan Gassies and Croizet Bages) would be like under different management and with massive investment.

Rauzan Gassies in particular has a very good terroir.
To be fair, the wine is better these days than it was in the past, although it still falls far short of its potential.

Neighboring Rauzan Ségla spent a fortune in building a drainage system that Gassies might very well benefit from too.
Among other things...

I have not a single bottle of Rauzan Gassies in my cellar...
In the interest of science, if anyone reading this has a bottle, could they uncork it soon and report back?

Thanks in advance,

AR

Nicklasss wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:47 pm On the Right Bank : Troplong Mondot.

jckba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:11 am I think it’s right to strongly favor despising a wine that obliterates it’s terroir in the context of most over classified wine debate. Lascombes would get my vote too.

So I picked up a bunch of cases of the 2004 Lascombes years back on a K&L closeout for $29.99/per and while I thought I liked it in its youth, as it matured, it was always as if you had a toothpick in your mouth while tasting it.

Comte Flaneur wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:24 pm My candidates for most over classified wine would include Lascombes and Angelus.

But I have tried so little Lascombes in recent years and I remember Jim and Blanquito reporting that the 2004 is an oaky mess.

Dufort Vivens would be a candidate based on the dinner we had recently, and I was not entirely convinced by the more modern wines.

JimHow wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:56 pm I'm surprised by all the hate for Angelus.
I'm no expert on Angelus, I've rarely tried it, but I'm thinking DavidG disagrees.

DavidG wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:51 pm Any predictions Alex? Other than controversy, which has become the norm.

Dionysus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:49 pm

DavidG wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:51 pm Any predictions Alex? Other than controversy, which has become the norm.

I think most of the controversy has already happened.

Château Angélus, Château Ausone, Château Cheval Blanc have all opted out...Ausone and Cheval Blanc noses out of joint to be in the same Category as Pavie and Angélus, and Angélus leaving a few months after, presumably to a) maintain the same perceived standing with Ausone and Cheval Blanc, and b) to differentiate itself from Pavie. Pavie's decision to remain makes sense, as the only remaining Premier Grand Cru Classé A, but they will surely change come the 8th.

Chateau La Gaffelière has also withdrawn from the classification (Premier Grand Cru Classé B in 2012), but for entirely different reasons. There's a great article here which is well worth a read for those interested https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/ ... ification/ I think I may have posted this before.

Château Figeac will most likely be promoted to Premier Grand Cru Classé A, which has been well flagged. Can't see anyone else being promoted to the "A" classification.

I had La Clotte pegged for promotion to Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but they withdrew from the classification along with Quinault l’Enclos (sibling estates of Ausone and Cheval Blanc). Pavie-Decesse maybe?

Quintus (formerly Chateau Tertre Daugay (Grand Cru Classé from 2012) and most recently, but yet to be absorbed, Chateau Grand Pontet (also Grand Cru Classé 2012)) would most likely have gone straight in at Premier Grand Cru Classé B, but I think I read that they won't be applying to join the classification.

After Chateau La Gaffelière's defection, I can't see anyone else being demoted from the "B" classification...Larcis Ducasse probably most at risk, but would be harsh considering it only gained promotion in 2012.

There'll be some additions to the Grand Cru Classé for sure (14 new additions in 2012) but not sure who has applied or not. Château Cap de Mourlin would be the one I'd pick to be demoted from the Grand Cru Classé. Guess work.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:29 pm I have never felt that the Saint Emilion was anything but a complete waste of time. To make it seem updated, they have included some pretty strange criteria including parking and social media prescence. (How Ausone got its A classification with such lousy parking is beyond me)

And yet again, they shoot themselves in the foot. Sounds like the tasting panel is incompetent, but I suspect they mechanics of the process will only come out in litigation.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:37 pm What is traceability?