Hey AKR...

[JimHow]

What do you think of the sentence?
Sipping on a 2019 Ridge Geyserville, it's very nice...

[JimHow]

This 2019 Ridge Geyserville, by the way... Love it.
This seems less in your face obnoxious than most infant Geyservilles.
It almost feels like a conscious effort to make it more accessible.
But after this week's 2019 La Conseillante encounter, I'm getting a little gun shy in my observations.
Love this 2019 Ridge Geyserville... 93 points in my book, drinking better than 2019 La Conseillante, at least in this place and time.

[AKR]

It seems to me that 11 years for Elizabeth Holmes 'official' crimes is comparable to what other white collar fraud convictions have been sentenced (Enron, Worldcom, and so on). But there are not a ton of those high profile ones, and most don't have such photogenic defendants. I'm not sure how this fit into sentencing guidelines, and how much discretion the judge truly had here.

For those who may not have heard the backstory, one of my college roommates/fraternity brothers/ski buddies was her chief engineer. She destroyed his life.

But that's not what she was on trial for, and in my mind, the real (uncharged) crimes were the fake medical information that was distributed to thousands upon thousands of people getting tested. IIRC that evidence was not really brought into play, since those weren't the specific charges, but if a major hospital or laboratory system had been lying about cancer or pregnancy test results at the scale she was, in my mind, mere monetary fines would not be enough. Especially given her conduct when confronted with this by her employees. Internal whistle-blowers had seen their careers, reputations wrecked by her retaliation as well. (Read the stories on George Schulz's grandson...) Even her counsel, the esteemed David Boies, was dragged down into her madness as well.

WSJ covered the saga well, but I have not read John Carreyou's book yet. Perhaps with the situation at FTX in the last week, this might help set guard rails for aggressive business leaders -- failure isn't a crime but fraud along the way is.

========

Last Geyserville I had was the 2013 or 2015, but we did have some younger Lytton Springs over the summer.

What are your thoughts on the sentence, and implications?

[JimHow]

I always have mixed feelings about these lengthy sentences.
I haven't followed the court case that closely but I think I read somewhere that the sentencing guidelines were 11-14 years.
I guess this is what had to be imposed. We are a scam nation. We're one big scam.
David Boies is going to be going after Larry David and my boy Tommy Brady pretty soon.
At first I was concerned for Tommy but then I thought, I'm tired of these scams. How can anyone not think crypto is a scam.
Everybody is guilty of it. CNN is guilty of it. They run Joe Namath scam Medicare Advantage and Tom Selleck scam reverse mortgage commercials.
And Frank Thomas/Doug Flutie supplement commercials.
I can't just say shame on CNN because they ALL do it.
Everybody is trying to scam somebody. Some get away with it, some don't.

[JimHow]

So of course a Nugenex SNL skit pops up in my YouTube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DhEEo5S9fg

[DavidG]

I’ve got no sympathy for white collar criminals and scammers like Holmes, Skilling, Rudi K, Rick Scott. Lock ‘em up and let ‘em rot for a decade. I particularly agree with Arv on Holmes and the uncharged fake medical info. Lots of other thoughts on this, but probably better reserved for sharing over a fine N. Medoc.

[AKR]

There was some complexity around the medical test results. Apparently during the chaos of the corporate Theranos bankruptcy, the database was encrypted and then somehow 'irretrievably' lost. That data which had been directed by the trustee to be preserved, did not survive. Some observers felt this was very much the result of Holmes and Bhalwani's actions, as they understood the gravity of that information, before investigators fully would.

[jal]

I just think the sentence is very harsh. Eleven years strikes me as vengeful and cruel. Then again I though Madoff's sentence was harsh.

[JimHow]

I agree Jacques. Madoff’s was Kafkaesque. This sentence feels high too.

[JimHow]

I had a judge put an 8 month pregnant woman (3 centimeters dilated, due Dec 17th) in jail yesterday because she violated her one year probation not by committing new criminal conduct but by having contact with the boyfriend/father of her child that she punched last March. My head wanted to explode. These prosecutors get off on putting people in jail. We are right up there with China and Saudi Arabia, a really proud accomplishment.

[Musigny 151]

I know it is a little thread drift, but I am watching Elon Musk trying to bully at Twitter and enjoying that he can’t win this. But he has inflicted a lot of pain on employees of a decent company and while flouting some labor laws, most of it is legal. We are too forgiving of these narcissistic assholes whether they are immature businessmen or ex presidents.

[Chateau Vin]

I agree with Musigny...

I see lot of parallels between Trump and Elon.

Both are narcissists.
Both are childish, picking up fights on twitter.
Both throw temper tantrums.
Both try to silence someone who disagrees with them.
Both flaunt wealth to the point where it is immature and childish.
Both abuse the authority and the power that is entrusted.
Both are proponents of and practise crony capitalism.
Both think and behave like they are above the law.

Well, the list goes on, and one can find multiple examples for each of the above...

People like that were bad for history (Narcissist Hitler comes to my mind), Trump was bad for the country and Elon will prove bad for business...

As far as sentencing of white collar crimes, and for some on the forum feeling sentences either too harsh or slap on the wrist, I would say this. I am no expert in judicial matters, but as someone looking through the eyes of a simple citizen, I feel ‘it all depends.’

Looking from a perspective of someone who gets put in jail for shoplifting or for the possession of small amounts of marijuana, the sentence of Holmes is slap on the wrist. From the perspective of white collar trial lawyers, they think her sentence is too much. Then there are others who think our judicial penal code stresses too much on lengthy sentences and pretty much think all the sentences are disproportionate.

I was flabbergasted when one criminal defense lawyer suggested that “Oh, the sentence is too much. She will never hold a position at any business and she will not be committing any such crime again, ever. So she won’t cause any harm to others in future. Therefore the sentence is harsh and she needs a break”.

Really? What the f#%* does that mean?

A person who is convicted of possession of small amounts of marijuana is not in a position not to do that activity again. And also what about someone who steals money or shoplifts from a store? These people might be in the position to do it again, after they finish serving the sentence right? So the sentencing has to be full court press with no leniency for these people compared to people like Holmes, who deserves a break?

Gimme a break...

[Chateau Vin]

I had a judge put an 8 month pregnant woman (3 centimeters dilated, due Dec 17th) in jail yesterday because she violated her one year probation not by committing new criminal conduct but by having contact with the boyfriend/father of her child that she punched last March. My head wanted to explode. These prosecutors get off on putting people in jail. We are right up there with China and Saudi Arabia, a really proud accomplishment.

And that is a travesty... It seems like judge/prosecutor wants to show that they are incharge and show off their power, whether it is harmful or excessive or plainly that it is a right thing to do...

I feel that There is a fine line between what is right and what is rightful.... And many times, doing the right thing goes a long way in lieu of doing the rightful thing..

[DavidG]

I had a judge put an 8 month pregnant woman (3 centimeters dilated, due Dec 17th) in jail yesterday because she violated her one year probation not by committing new criminal conduct but by having contact with the boyfriend/father of her child that she punched last March. My head wanted to explode. These prosecutors get off on putting people in jail. We are right up there with China and Saudi Arabia, a really proud accomplishment.

Agree with you on this, and with the ridiculously high incarceration rate for the socioeconomically and/or racially disadvantaged. The system is stacked against them.

Holmes and her ilk suffer no such disadvantages and I harbor no compassion for them. Now 150 years for Madoff may have been a “statement,” but it too was ridiculous. Ten or more years maybe, but 150?

[Comte Flaneur]

I agree CV that Musk seems like another reckless, immature, narcissistic and dangerous a-hole that we will have to endure over the years ahead on a par with Trump, but we should be wary of the slippery slope of Godwin’s Law. Let’s not go there.

[JimHow]

I think the western Europeans seem to generally have it about right on crime, punishment, climate advocacy, health care, women’s health, employment, and reproductive rights, worker’s rights, sexual freedom, religion, etc.

[Chateau Vin]

I think the western Europeans seem to generally have it about right on crime, punishment, climate advocacy, health care, women’s health, employment, and reproductive rights, worker’s rights, sexual freedom, religion, etc.

In my opinion, when you mix religion, power and wealth that’s what happens. But again that’s another story and those stories can touch someone’s nerves. So it’s better not to go there...

[JimHow]

Not quite sure what you mean CV.

[Musigny 151]

It seems to me that 11 years for Elizabeth Holmes 'official' crimes is comparable to what other white collar fraud convictions have been sentenced (Enron, Worldcom, and so on). But there are not a ton of those high profile ones, and most don't have such photogenic defendants. I'm not sure how this fit into sentencing guidelines, and how much discretion the judge truly had here.

For those who may not have heard the backstory, one of my college roommates/fraternity brothers/ski buddies was her chief engineer. She destroyed his life.

But that's not what she was on trial for, and in my mind, the real (uncharged) crimes were the fake medical information that was distributed to thousands upon thousands of people getting tested. IIRC that evidence was not really brought into play, since those weren't the specific charges, but if a major hospital or laboratory system had been lying about cancer or pregnancy test results at the scale she was, in my mind, mere monetary fines would not be enough. Especially given her conduct when confronted with this by her employees. Internal whistle-blowers had seen their careers, reputations wrecked by her retaliation as well. (Read the stories on George Schulz's grandson...) Even her counsel, the esteemed David Boies, was dragged down into her madness as well.

WSJ covered the saga well, but I have not read John Carreyou's book yet. Perhaps with the situation at FTX in the last week, this might help set guard rails for aggressive business leaders -- failure isn't a crime but fraud along the way is.

========

Last Geyserville I had was the 2013 or 2015, but we did have some younger Lytton Springs over the summer.

PXL_20220622_033206768.jpg

What are your thoughts on the sentence, and implications?

Arv’s point about screwed up medical reports is spot on. I would be curious to know if it resulted in death or a more horrible medical outcome for anyone who took the test. Do we know any more?

[jal]

I just think the sentence is harsh,

Looking from a perspective of someone who gets put in jail for shoplifting or for the possession of small amounts of marijuana, the sentence of Holmes is slap on the wrist. From the perspective of white collar trial lawyers, they think her sentence is too much. Then there are others who think our judicial penal code stresses too much on lengthy sentences and pretty much think all the sentences are disproportionate.

Last I heard prosecutors on the West Coast were not prosecuting anyone for shoplifting, let alone slapping on the wrist, and no one is prosecuting for small marijuana possession anymore.

In any case, we punish crime, not arrogance and hubris. Five years would not be a slap on the wrist, eleven years just seems vindictive.

Musk was everyone's darling before the pandemic, I don't know what happened but he went nuts. The son of a friend of mine resigned from Twitter yesterday after the letter, I would not want to work there either but it doesn't look to me like any laws were broken.

And I agree with Jim that the Western Europeans seem to have found a better balance. I am just not sure how sustainable our society and theirs is. Sometimes I feel like I'm witnessing the collapse of Western Civilization in slow motion.

On that cheerful note...

[JimHow]

So I guess she’ll do a few years more than Rudy and the guy from Premier Cru. I don’t do any federal work but I think she’ll serve about 85% of the sentence with good time, and go into a halfway house at some point.

I am representing a woman here in Maine on a misdemeanor charge. She’s currently doing an 18 month bid on a federal gun charge at the federal detention center in downtown Philadelphia. She says the rats and roaches are the size of cars, and the prison guards are meaner than in a Turkish jail.

[Chateau Vin]

I just think the sentence is harsh,

Looking from a perspective of someone who gets put in jail for shoplifting or for the possession of small amounts of marijuana, the sentence of Holmes is slap on the wrist. From the perspective of white collar trial lawyers, they think her sentence is too much. Then there are others who think our judicial penal code stresses too much on lengthy sentences and pretty much think all the sentences are disproportionate.

Last I heard prosecutors on the West Coast were not prosecuting anyone for shoplifting, let alone slapping on the wrist, and no one is prosecuting for small marijuana possession anymore.

Jal, I take that comment about no one on west coast getting prosecuted for shoplifting as a token of frustration and appalling regarding what the SF city attorney did. Thank goodness he got booted out of office.

Regarding no one is prosecuting for small marijuana possession, I beg to differ. Wasn’t it last year that Biden pardoned nearly 6000 people who were convicted for such act? Didn’t he ask Governors to do the same for those who got convicted under state charges? Yes, some states, especially who passed marijuana laws are not prosecuting, but most of middle America states still do...



In any case, we punish crime, not arrogance and hubris. Five years would not be a slap on the wrist, eleven years just seems vindictive.

I don’t think she was convicted for any part of arrogance and hubris she might have projected on her part. She got convicted for deceiving the investors, presenting false claims and affidavits, forging documents on other companies’ letterheads (go figure, I couldn’t believe it), not to mention providing false data about the technology and apparently silencing those who gave correct information and advised her correctly.

Like I said before, I was not saying she got a slap on the wrist. I was simply saying why different people feel different way based on where they are coming from. If you ask me where I fall, for the record, I belong to third category where I am one of those who believe that penal code in the US across the board is harsh.

Musk was everyone's darling before the pandemic, I don't know what happened but he went nuts. The son of a friend of mine resigned from Twitter yesterday after the letter, I would not want to work there either but it doesn't look to me like any laws were broken.

If people get punished for arrogance and hubris, well, Musk will warm up the seat for everyone else that need to go after him...

And I agree with Jim that the Western Europeans seem to have found a better balance. I am just not sure how sustainable our society and theirs is. Sometimes I feel like I'm witnessing the collapse of Western Civilization in slow motion.

Amen...

On that cheerful note...

...I am opening 2020 Domaine de la Cote Estate Pinot, based on your glowing reviews and recommendation of the Domaine....

[Chateau Vin]

Not quite sure what you mean CV.

Jim,

I was simply alluding that every little thing is being presented through the lens of religion or by special interests who stand to make money or cling onto power.

The issues you mentioned such as reproductive rights, lgbtq, etc. are presented through the lens of religion and whip up people’s passion by media pundits to make money (likes of faux news hosts, Alex Jones, etc.), subsequently the people in power (politicians) running with it for self preservation and self enrichment. Even the curriculum of schools is not spared and not given a chance to amicably settle any differences we may have...

Regarding healthcare, workers rights, etc. you mentioned, once again wealthy corporations and donors are dangling carrots to power hungry politicians to get what they want.

So that’s the nexus of power, religion and wealth that has become all too common. I presume the same issues might be in Europe too, but I feel it is less over there and has worsened in the US over the past few years...

[DavidG]

Arv’s point about screwed up medical reports is spot on. I would be curious to know if it resulted in death or a more horrible medical outcome for anyone who took the test. Do we know any more?

I think they were using established technology to back up/fake results from the non-functional Theranos technology, so results they actually got around to reporting were likely correct.

[Chateau Vin]

Arv’s point about screwed up medical reports is spot on. I would be curious to know if it resulted in death or a more horrible medical outcome for anyone who took the test. Do we know any more?

I think they were using established technology to back up/fake results from the non-functional Theranos technology, so results they actually got around to reporting were likely correct.

Apart from what David mentioned above, according to the documentary, the story that I understood was that— the machine was giving false positives about cancer cells/miscarriages, etc. and the physicians did normal available testing, which determined otherwise.

Had they relied on theranos results, someone would have received unnecessary cancer treatments or other medical procedures...

[DavidG]

Right, incorrect results did get out and caused serious trouble but, at least as far as I know (and I’m sure I don’t know it all), no one ended up dead or having unnecessary surgery.

[tim]

I agree that, in general, the system goes way too far in sentencing for non-violent crimes.

That being said, in this case and in the case of Madoff, factoring in the people impacted is an important component of the sentence. She destroyed a lot of people's lives. Her lack of empathy for her victims is telling. I think it is a fair sentence.

[AKR]

I don't think non-violent = victimless. There is plenty of mayhem that comes from 'non-violent' crimes.

=====

I was listening to a radio show yesterday about illegal dumping (of all things) and the perpetrator had basically gathered up all the toxic material that firms were paying well to dispose of...and he just threw it into some abandoned lot in a poor inner city area! Apparently the pile of debris was multiple stories high, and the people who were impacted had little ability to stop him, or lobby government effectively, to get any kind of enforcement/cleanup etc.

[stefan]

John Fox got out of prison before those whom he fleeced got back their 7 cents on the dollar.