Poll: Is Latour Overrated?

[JimHow]

Other than the 1991 and Stuart's duo of 1959/1961 he served to us, I'm hard pressed to remember being blown away by a Latour. Stuart insists that I liked the 1982 in a dinner we did down in Ft. Lauderdale, and I have no reason to dispute him. But I'm not remembering any of the mind numbing encounters that I've had with the likes of, say, 1983 Margaux, or 1986 Mouton, or 1996 Lafite, or 1989 Haut Brion, etc., etc.

In my 2022 BWE/Ian Amstad Re-Classification of the Wines of Bordeaux I ranked Latour fifth in my listing of the First Growths:

1. Lafite Rothschild
2. Margaux
3. Haut Brion
4. Mouton Rothschild
5. Latour

I know Ian had an experience that may have been even more underwhelming that Stuart's recent dinner.

Please list your ranking of the five first growths, and, no, you can't add La Mission, etc.

[SF Ed]

While I would call Haut Brion my favorite First Growth, Latour would certainly be my second. My ordering:

1. Haut Brion
2. Latour
3. Lafite
4. Margaux
5. Mouton

As I mentioned in the Latour thread, I think a core part of the Latour "problem" is that it takes decades to mature and most of the Latour any of us have had is younger than its peak.

SF Ed

[Blanquito]

My First Growth ranking and adjectives (favorable/unfavorable):
1. Haut Brion: complex, distinctive/light
2. Lafite: regal, seamless/restrained
3. Mouton: sexy, layered/inconsistent
4. Margaux: beguiling, exotic/overwrought
5. Latour: powerful/austere, inelegant

[Comte Flaneur]

Latour is not over-rated in my opinion. Having said that this estate was patchy and generally below par in the 1980s and 1990s with some notable exceptions.

We have done six first growth dinners in the last five or so years (including LMHB an honoury first) and Latour came equal last with Haut-Brion. The winner was Lafite, followed by LMHB, Margaux and Mouton.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9656&p=95646&hilit=Latour#p95646

The outcomes may have been dependent on the vintages chosen and how they showed and there were quite a few indifferent wines in the Latour (55, 57, 79, 75, 82, 83, 85, 96) and Haut Brion (67, 78, 82, 83, 85, 89, 90) line ups vs the others, which were more consistent especially Lafite, consistent at an extraordinarily high level: (Lafite: 76, 78, 83, 85, 86, 88, 90, 97; LMHB: 61, 78, 83, 85, 88, 89, 90, 95; Margaux: 71, 78, 82, 83, 85, 88, 90, 96, 03 and Mouton: 61, 70, 82, 85, 86, 88, 89, 96).

I had a dinner a year or two ago where the 96 showed ever so well next to an equally good but very differ t - and charming - 1995. The 1996 was better than the bottle I shared with Nic, and the 96 was the runner up in our Latour vertical after the 1982.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8239&p=71108&hilit=Latour#p71108

When Frédéric Engerer came in to run the estate in the late 90s, he rang the changes and fired the winemaker, and Latour never looked back since the 2000 vintage. Many respected commentators - and I think Neal Martin is among them - think that Latour now is the proverbial first among the firsts. Parker famously rated the 2009 100 points and Engerer then demonstrated that the 2010 was even better and challenged Parker on this, and all Parker could reply was that his scale stopped at 100.

Pretty much all of us are judging Latour by its performance in the 20th century rather than the 21st century but few of us will be around long enough to drink the 21st century Latours at full maturity.

[stefan]

1. Lafite. When Lafite is "on", it is the best wine in the world. Period.
2. Haut-Brion. Rarely the best of the FG but far and away the most consistent in my experience.
3. Mouton. Sometimes outstanding and rarely disappoints.
4. Latour. Not consistent enough, but sometimes the best.
5. Margaux. Not consistent enough. In some vintages it has an ethereal nose that is to die for, but usually then some other Margaux wines have bouquets that are almost as good.

[tim]

I'm with Ed on the ordering.

And I've had many spectacular Latour. The only reason that Haut-Brion beats it is that it is more consistent in off years.

Then again, I have had many fewer Lafites. Perhaps if more showed up at BWE events, I'd have a better feeling for it

[Claudius2]

Guys
The answer to the poll I gave was Margaux as the nose and palate are exotic and complex - there is a wonderful berry character that is hard to describe in rational terms as it seems to offer so many flavours.

Like many others, it was off form probably up to the late 70s but I’ve had lesser vintages of this wine that still tasted great such as 1984, 1993 and 1997.

Next I’d say HB though have argued for as long as I can remember that LMHB is just as good and often better. However I like the Pessac character.

The three Pauillac estates are of course excellent wines but I’d rate Latour third as I’ve had more good older vintages of this wine (the oldest being 1900) even if Francois only drinks them from the 18th century…

Despite the above Latour was the winner at a big blind tasting I went to some years ago and a long way ahead of Lafite or Mouton. So no I don’t think it is over-rated.

One issue with Latour is when to drink it. It’s reputation is as a wine that takes a very long time to fully mature but i just cannot predict it. However I’ve tried some vintages relatively young at tastings that tasted great - 1990 a good example tried a few times in the mid 90s.

Lafite would be above Mouton. I’ve had some rather disappointing wines from Mouton, and maybe I don’t see it as a unique style like the others. Part of that view is that there are plenty of rich, dramatic Cabs in Australia that I think are similar in style.

Having said that, the only first growth I have in storage is HB.
Cheers
Mark

[jal]

The youngest of any of the first growths I've had was the 2004 Haut Brion. My experience in newer vintages is between very limited and nonexistent.
After that disclaimer, to my taste, Lafite first and then Margaux hit heights that cannot be matched by any of the others. Haut Brion and Mouton have at times delivered. The only Latours that wowed me were the 1978 and the 1982.

[dstgolf]

As we all know taste is subjective and there are NO right and wrong answers to an individuals preference.

For me I've had way more bottles of Latour than any other first growth with the 82 consistently beating out the Mouton in side by side comparisons all three times this has taken place. That being said for my 60th and 65th birthdays the 82 Mouton was just superb on its own and that may be the difficulty with side by side head to head comparisons....there is always a winner and a loser!!

I have not had a Lafite wow me to date and maybe just less than stellar bottles/bad luck but 75,76,82,83,85,88,89,90,96,2000 and 2004 all in the history books and though most good nothing moved me especially for the price.

Mouton probably second on my list of most vintages sampled next to Latour and have enjoyed many a good bottle but nothing from the 70s that was worth a second glass. 80s were strong with 82/86 both being crowd pleasers.

When Margaux has been on the nose is simply magical with those 61 magnums marched out at the Chateau in 2005 being a lifetime memory and the 2000 BWE WOTY stunning.

Haut Brion I love on its own but has never moved us to the extent of the other FGs but as I said at the beginning ....to each his own. All of these are great wines a pleasure to share but they have all priced themselves out of my league going forward. Thankfully still a few in the cellar to share down the road.

[Nicklasss]

Personnally, i did not had enough Latour to vote. And like already written, don't have much experience with Lafite too.

For the three other First Growth, it depends which vintages you've tried. I would say the most consistent (nose and mouth) is Haut-Brion, Margaux has an unbelievable seductive complex nose most of the time and a perfumed mouth, and Mouton has a nice strong nose but a super quality complex structured long mouth.

A very tough choice, but i would say in that order : Haut Brion (I tried good bottles of 1975, 1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1993, 1994, 1998), Mouton (i tried good bottles of the 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1996, 1999) and Margaux (i tried good bottles of 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1999, 2001, 2004).

[JimHow]

In checking my personal rankings in the 2022 Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts / Ian Amstad Reclassification of the Wines of Bordeaux I realized that I still had Calon Segur at the top of my Third Growth category, I have now corrected that by moving it up into Second Growth status. Also, in light of GPL's achievement as the 2022 BWE William "Stefan" Johnson Wine of the Year, I decided to return that property back into the classification, albeit on a probationary Fifth Growth designation....

First Growths

1. Lafite Rothschild
2. Margaux
3. Haut Brion
4. Mouton Rothschild
5. Latour

Second Growths

6. Pichon Longueville Baron
7. Montrose
8. La Mission Haut Brion
9. Ducru Beaucaillou
10. Leoville Las Cases
11. Palmer
12. Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande
13. Cos d’Estournel
14. Leoville Barton
15. Calon Segur

Third Growths

16. Smith Haut Lafitte
17. Haut Bailly
18. Brane Cantenac
19. Rausan Segla
20. Pape Clement
21. Giscours
22. d'Issan

Fourth Growths

23. Pontet Canet
24. Clerc Milon
25. Branaire Ducru
26. Gruaud Larose
27. Leoville Poyferre
28. Sociando Mallet
29. Lafon Rochet
30. Beychevelle
31. Malescot St. Exupery
32. Duhart Milon
33. du Tertre
34. Talbot
35. Lagrange
36. Lascombes
37. Prieure Lichine
38. Domaine de Chevalier
39. D’Armailhac
40. Kirwan

Fifth Growths

41. Lynch Bages
42. La Lagune
43. Gloria
44. Meyney
45. Malartic Lagraviere
46. Cantemerle
47. Chasse Spleen
48. Haut Batailley
49. Batailley
50. Langoa Barton
51. St. Pierre
52. Cantenac Brown
53. Boyd Cantenac
54. Les Ormes de Pez
55. Phelan Segur
56. de Lamarque
57. Grand Puy Lacoste

[DavidG]

1. Haut Brion - the aroma and flavor profile just checks all the boxes for me, incredibly consistent
2. Margaux - too sexy for my glass
3. Lafite - elegance personified
4. Mouton - highest of highs, bummer lows
5. Latour - power personified, but not my personal preference, also extremely consistent

[Tom In DC]

Yes, Latour had a weak patch in the 1980's, the window of time that EVERYONE ELSE IN BORDEAUX GOT THEIR ACT TOGETHER!

Somehow, they made good wines through the 60's and 70's when most of the other FG's struggled.

So, no, Latour is not overrated.(IMMHO!)

[Comte Flaneur]

If I was handed the responsibility of updating the 1855 classification today this is how I would rank them>

[Claudius2]

Ian
I’m more in agreement with your ordering than with Jim’s though of course not entirely. I do however agree with LMHB.

For 5th growths, you say the rest. Not sure what you mean by this. Are there any classed growths that you would not include at this level?

And would you add any Crus Bourgeois as fifths?

Regards
Mark