Who’s indubitably making their best wine ever?

[Blanquito]

The WK article chatter, here and on Berserkers, has prompted some reflection. Do I even buy that notion that any chateau is indubitably making their best wine ever?

Of course, we only have the vintages we’ve tasted to compare to and most of us haven’t been lucky enough to taste these wines through the centuries, but we can at least harken to the 80’s for many chateau.

That said, I can think of only a single chateau, that was making credible wine in the 80’s and since, I think is clearly it’s best ever: Leoville Barton.

What about the rest of BWE? Any other candidates?

[JoelD]

So just to clarify. This is specific to Bordeaux only right? And does it have to be a producer that was also doing well back in the 80's?

[Blanquito]

Good questions. I’m definitely thinking about chateau that made good to great wine in the past, but have really pulled off something even better in the new era.

But if you have examples from outside Bordeaux that meet this criterion, I’m all ears.

[JoelD]

I'll try to narrow down some specific Burgundy and Champagne examples. But there's a common element there where the son or daughter takes over/goes out on their own. Or when a "disciple" starts making their own wine, they usually have a few iffy years before it all comes together.

But under the Bordeaux parameters. I think the argument could also be made for Ducru and Calon Segur. Ducru is a weird exception because of all their issues in the 80's. Calon seems to have upped their game since they were sold but maybe they are less classic now (and too high abv?) so I don't feel strongly about this one.

[stefan]

Pontet Canet.

Maybe d’Issan?

[Comte Flaneur]

Montrose and GPL definitely

[Comte Flaneur]

But probably so many others too

From St Julien, Lagrange, from Margaux Brane Cantenac immediately spring to mind

Another is Pichon Baron

But quite frankly probably all of the super seconds and first growths are consistently making better wines than they ever did and this particularly applies to Mouton which obviously made some epic wines - 45, 59, 82, 86 but never had the consistency it has delivered in the 21st century

[Ognik]

Define BEST wine.
There is where the story begins.
I think your socialization to wine determines your attitude towards it.
Evolution does not necessarily mean improvement.
And yes, wines from the 80s and 90s that were good no longer have to be.
We have to accept that today's wine production is different from what it used to be.
Better wines these days? I'm not convinced.
DIfferent wines from the past for sure, that's all.

[JimHow]

Montrose. And Pichon Baron.
And Giscours.

[Claudius2]

Guys
Based on tastings of the 2019s, 2026 and 2010s recently, I’d say the following:

Langoa Barton
Giscours
D’Issan
Haut Bages Liberal
Pontet Canet
Prieue Lichine
Dufort Viviens (not tried 19 though so tentative sssessment).

Cheers
Mark

[Blanquito]

Can’t argue with most of these worthy nominees. But lots of them were making plonk in the 80’s, so nowhere to go but up from there.

An interesting debate could be centered around a chateau like Montrose. Arguably it didn’t round into peak form until 89/90 (though there are lots of glowing notes on the 85-86 from tasters I trust on CT), but are the 18, 19, 20 really their best ever wines, better than the “100 pt” 1990 or the equally adored 89 (and 00, 05, 09)?

I have no doubt that for a palate like Jeff Leve, for whom ever greater internationalization of claret can only be good, the answer is a resounding “yes”. But for the lovers of traditional Bordeaux as attained in the great vintages of the 80’s, I’m sure the answer is much more doubtful at best.

I know I’ve been as skeptical as Jeff has been positive about the changes in Bordeaux over the last 30 years, but I promise my skepticism is entirely based on what I’ve tasted. Plus, for my curmudgeonly palate, the top 40-50 wines in each strong vintage of the 80’s have no equal amongst the ranks of contemporary claret.

Of course, I might get tired of tilting at windmills and learn to love the fruit bomb, as my “side” has clearly lost to the Parker-Leve-Dunnuck jam-loving taste setters. But I’m not ready to quit just yet.

[stefan]

>>
for my curmudgeonly palate, the top 40-50 wines in each strong vintage of the 80’s have no equal amongst the ranks of contemporary claret.
>>

I drink so little Bordeaux vinted from 2005 to now that I cannot do a serious comparison. Many estate's 2000s are consistent in quality (for my taste) to wines from the 1980s. For me the jury is still out on 2005. 2001s and 2002s are good, but almost across the board are below the average for the 1980s. Selectively bought 2003s I liked more than most BWEers, although now many seem to be falling apart. Except for right bank 1998s, no vintage 1991-1999 is as good as the average from the 1980s even if there were some fine wines made in 1995 and 1996.

[JoelD]

Can’t argue with most of these worthy nominees. But lots of them were making plonk in the 80’s, so nowhere to go but up from there.

An interesting debate could be centered around a chateau like Montrose. Arguably it didn’t round into peak form until 89/90 (though there are lots of glowing notes on the 85-86 from tasters I trust on CT), but are the 18, 19, 20 really their best ever wines, better than the “100 pt” 1990 or the equally adored 89 (and 00, 05, 09)?

I excluded Montrose originally because of how good 89/90/96/00/05/09/10 are. However once everyone mentioned, I thought further. And if we're including 14/15/16 as part of it, then I think there's a good argument for it. If just 18/19/20 then I don't think we have near enough data.

[Musigny 151]

I would rule out Giscours, not because the wines are not good-they are. But the wines from the seventies are every bit as good, and for most of the decade, it was between Palmer and them for who made the best wines in Margaux. And yes, they were that good.

The debate centers around style and which paradigm you go for. I don’t think in a time of climate change, you can hope to compare the wines. For most of the twentieth century the objective was to bring alcohol levels up, and chaptalization was the norm. The challenge for todays winemaker is to make wines from ripe grapes without overdoing the alcohol. William Kelley’s brilliant analysis shows the problems and how the best estates solve them.

Ultimately I remain old school. Not only are the kinds of wine I love not easy to make, but the rewards for making them now do not justify the effort. The likes of Alfert and I are disappearing, and with good reason. The wines we love come from a different era, made by winemakers with long experience of making wines from Bordeaux barely sustainable climate. Three vintages per decade were good to great and two were semi disastrous. This is not a sustainable model.

The learning on the job from father to son does not exist among the top estates (they do at a lower level). Fresh ideas, new techniques and most importantly of all, ripeness at a time of climate change have basically forced winemakers into making more modern styles.

Nor can we rule out the role of the critic. There is so much wrong with the modern scoring system, I am not sure where to start. The majority of critics have little formal training, in fact most trained as journalists rather than as wine people. They taste huge amounts of wine, so naturally it becomes more difficult at the end of each day to keep things straight, and score correctly after tasting fifty plus wines.

So fierce is the competition, that 95 point scores are thrown to the public like confetti, and the perfect 100 point score, once so rare, that it caused a frenzy, is now so ubiquitous that it inspires nothing more than a polite yawn. And that paradigm that happily accepts the modern paradigm only becomes self fulfilling.

It was interesting that Kelley whose palate I find reasonably close to mine, praised the 2021 vintage as hearkening back to the style of wine I enjoyed. I didn’t buy for three reasons.
1. They were too expensive
2. Although he is probably right I would love them, I doubt whether I will be around to enjoy them at maturity.
3. They are not of high enough quality to be investment wines.

So there you have it. Those wonderful low alcohol wines are unlikely to be produced again. They were produced in a bygone era for people who loved that racy style fashioned by people who learned their craft from their parents. The new buyer wants the high scoring wine and is not too worried by alcohol levels hovering at 14.5% plus, and the aging potential when the balance including acidity is just right. I feel lucky to have drunk the wines from these old days and to have squirreled enough Magdelaine to keep me happy.

[Blanquito]

Nice write up, Mark.

Several takes away (from my perspective): (1) for your palate, modern Bordeaux isn't better than traditional Bordeaux; (2) but given the realities of climate change and the market place, modern Bordeaux is probably as good as nature allows it, with ripeness and extraction dialed back from the excesses of the 2003-2010 era.

I have no quarrel with the proposition of #2 from you or anyone, and of course, you are correct on #1. But #2 is a lot different than one saying, as many are, these are the best wines ever made by these chateau. (again, for chateau that we can all agree used to make great wine).

Given all the critical acclaim for 2019, with the likes of Kelley and Jancis basically calling it the best ever -- and on the whole I don't doubt the sincerity -- I really wonder what John Gilman would think of the vintage. Do you know if he has tasted it, and weighed in on his website?

[Nicklasss]

90 % of Bourgogne producers.

[Blanquito]

Thinking on this, I realized there’s at least one wine from the post-90 era that can run with the best of the 80’s: 1995 Figeac. What an incredible wine.

I think once fully ready — they’re evolving glacially indeed — some 98 Right Bankers will be as good as of yore. Overall I’m higher (possibly much higher) on the best of the Right Bank, especially Pomerol, from the 95-05 era than I am on the Left Bank. But the best of the Right Bank in this era is a short list so maybe if I drank First Growths I’d feel the same way about the Medoc.

One final caveat: balanced wines (so no Perse or Magrez chateau and their ilk) from 98, 00, 01, 02 and 05, and perhaps even 95 and 96, might still just need more time to really shine at their full potential and equal or even exceed the best of the 80’s. If/when that day comes, we can all sit around and laugh about threads like this and how impatient we were waiting the 30 years these wines just needed.

[marcs]

I put up that WK thread at WB and have been posting a lot in the thread over there, as some of you have as well. Glad to see the discussion going strong over here, and Blanquito's question is right on point.

To be honest, when I see claims that a producer like Montrose is making its best wines ever based on wines that are at most 5-10 years old, I wonder if the speaker is simply saying that they prefer powerful young wines to less intense older wines. The best older Montrose are so good, and have so much of the irrepplaceable magic and subtlety of age in them, that I'm just at a loss as to how one could definitively that the newer Montrose must be “indubitably” better. I suppose if one has fully followed the aging curve for past Montrose and can somehow predict or project out the aging course for the newer wines…but given that these newer wines are in a different style I don't know how that would be possible.

My own experience is limited but I just have not yet had that experience where a recent young Bordeaux for a producer I knew blew me away and made me think "this is the best ever". To take one example, when I tasted the 2016 Pichon Baron in 2019 or 2020, I thought it was a good wine but it wasn't nearly as good or pleasurable for me as I remember the 2008 PB as being in 2011 or 2012. But I tend not to drink a lot of young Bordeaux any more, perhaps I should dip more into my stash of younger wines.

[marcs]

Thinking on this, I realized there’s at least one wine from the post-90 era that can run with the best of the 80’s: 1995 Figeac. What an incredible wine.

I think once fully ready — they’re evolving glacially indeed — some 98 Right Bankers will be as good as of yore. Overall I’m higher (possibly much higher) on the best of the Right Bank, especially Pomerol, from the 95-05 era than I am on the Left Bank. But the best of the Right Bank in this era is a short list so maybe if I drank First Growths I’d feel the same way about the Medoc.

One final caveat: balanced wines (so no Perse or Magrez chateau and their ilk) from 98, 00, 01, 02 and 05, and perhaps even 95 and 96, might still just need more time to really shine at their full potential and equal or even exceed the best of the 80’s. If/when that day comes, we can all sit around and laugh about threads like this and how impatient we were waiting the 30 years these wines just needed.

I'm not sure I've ever had better Bordeaux than the best 98 right banks so I'd agree they could surpass the 80s. And I think we both spent pretty much the entire 2022 BWE DC event cocooned with that amazing magnum of 1995 Figeac so I'd agree with you there as well.

The 2000s are an interesting case. There are some amazingly good and balanced wines there but the left bank big guns have not IMO revealed all they have to offer. They tend to be cooler and crisper wines in my (limited) experience. Just a Blanquito away perhaps...

[marcs]

Define BEST wine.
There is where the story begins.
I think your socialization to wine determines your attitude towards it.
Evolution does not necessarily mean improvement.
And yes, wines from the 80s and 90s that were good no longer have to be.
We have to accept that today's wine production is different from what it used to be.
Better wines these days? I'm not convinced.
DIfferent wines from the past for sure, that's all.

Yes I really dislike the compulsion to take difference and make it “better” or “worse”. I think the 0-100 ranking scale, which implicitly socializes people to think of wine as ranked in a one dimensional hierarchy along a line, contributes to this.

[stefan]

>>
But the wines from the seventies are every bit as good, and for most of the decade, it was between Palmer and theM [Giscours] for who made the best wines in Margaux. And yes, they were that good.
>>

Amen! For vintages prior to 1982, for my taste Giscours was one of the 3 best Margaux.