Super seconds?

[DavidG]

The BD might want a word with Saratoga Wine regarding qualifications for "super second," though I doubt he'd disagree with the vintage selection:

[stefan]

Brings up the question: What 2014 Bordeaux should I look for?

[Comte Flaneur]

They obviously know what they are talking about.

For most of the wine cognoscenti - with a few notable exceptions on this board - Lynch Bages is, de facto, a super second, and relatedly the most glaring misalignment in the 1855 classification.

The only disappointing Lynch I have had in the last couple of years was the 1985 we had in March which was just an off bottle. The two I had previous to that were magical.

The ultimate arbiter is of course the free market and Lynch is comfortably in that territory. I don’t know why people on here remain in a state of denial about it.

[DavidG]

Brings up the question: What 2014 Bordeaux should I look for?

I haven't checked recent pricing, but these are the 2014s that I'd be looking for:
Calon Segur
Conseillante
Giscous
TWTSNBN
Leoville Barton
Montrose
Rauzan Segla
Sociando Mallet
Vieux Chateau Certan

[JimHow]

Ha I was in an email exchange with a guy from Saratoga a few weeks ago after I stocked up on some 2014 Duhart and Leoville Barton, and have since ordered the 2014 Sociando from them. I told him that 2014 was the vintage to buy, and sent him a link to our site. See, BWE does set the markets!

I’ve been very pleased with the service I’ve gotten from Saratoga

[JCNorthway]

I've purchased more wine from them than anywhere else, by far, the past 2 or 3 years.

[stefan]

Thanks, David. Of those I have only Giscours and Rauzan Segla. Tonight Lucie and I will drink 2014 Pape Clement, which I fear will be spoofilated.

[Comte Flaneur]

You might be pleasantly surprised prof…

[Nicklasss]

The BD might want a word with Saratoga Wine regarding qualifications for "super second," though I doubt he'd disagree with the vintage selection:


cb6e1d46-8b40-4e72-b117-dc06e7bc6366.png

It is an evidence that you can fool easily the regular sheeps, saying that LB is a "super second" and sell it a higher price. If so, Palmer and LLC are First Growth, GPL a Third Growth, Calon Segur near a super second today, and i don't want even think what Pavie or Troplong Mondot or Péby Faugères are...

Of course, there are still few black sheeps, like me, that don't get into that "xanadu illusion"...

[DavidG]

Thanks, David. Of those I have only Giscours and Rauzan Segla. Tonight Lucie and I will drink 2014 Pape Clement, which I fear will be spoofilated.

I can’t believe you don’t already have any 2014 TWTSNBN.

[DavidG]

I've purchased more wine from them than anywhere else, by far, the past 2 or 3 years.

Me too. Due to their “12 ship free” promotions combined with decent pricing and a good selection.

[JimHow]

As I’ve noted before, Lynch is literally the ONE 2014, from either side of the river, that I have not liked.

[Comte Flaneur]

https://www.cellartracker.com/notes.asp?iWine=2075272

9/30/2021 - WILLIAM KELLEY LIKES THIS WINE:
The 2014 Lynch-Bages is full of promise, offering up a classic bouquet of rich but vibrant blackcurrant fruit mingled with with hints of loamy soil, cedar and vanilla pod. Full-bodied, deep and layered, with an abundance of ripe but youthfully assertive tannin, lively acids, and a long, resonant finish, it will hit its stride in ten to fifteen years. This is a more than merely good Lynch-Bages that represents especially good value in the contemporary marketplace.

Last ten scores on CT 92-96

[Comte Flaneur]

[Comte Flaneur]

I rest my case <rolls eyes>

[stefan]

>>
I can’t believe you don’t already have any 2014 TWTSNBN.
>>
Yes; bad mistake on my part. I have only 22 different vintages of it now; 2016 being the only one after 2010. But I also should rebuy those that we had but are now out of, such as 61,62,64,66,70,75,78,89,90,92,93,99. Well, maybe not the 92.

[stefan]

Right you are, Ian, as usual. The 2014 Pape Clement is concentrated modern but not spoofilated. Both Lucie and I like it. We agreed that it was too big for the cheese soufflé. I more or less expected that would be the case, but Lucie likes Graves with cheese soufflé and I wanted to try a 2014. My biggest criticism is that the Graves character is slight as of now, but then we rarely drink Graves at age 9.

[Nicklasss]

Diner with JeanFred tonight, he opened some great wines. One of these was the 2014 Château Pichon Longueville Baron... what a wine! But he opened something else that was even better... a wine in my top 10 list if i remember well.

[JimHow]

2014s that I have loved (some of which are in stock at Saratoga at rational prices):

Calon Segur
Leiville Barton
D’Armailhac
Clerc Milon
GPL
Cos d’Estournel
VCC
La Conseillante
Clos de l’Oratoire
Ducru Beaucaillou
Pichon Baron
Pichon Lalande
Sociando Mallet
Langoa Barton
Haut Bages Liberal
Palmer
Giscours
D’Issan
Rausan Segla
Duhart Milon

And numerous others.

In other words, the whole spectrum of Bordeaux. I have not had the 2014 Montrose but I’m guessing it must be great. It is a reserved, balanced, classically styled vintage like what they used to produce in the 1980s. The pricing when we got them on release was great. It seems to have been consistently excellent in all appellations, across both banks. The wines are light on their feet, making them easy to drink now, but they have a structure that will allow them to age gracefully for 20+ years. Calon Segur I have rated 100 points, and others, like Leoville Barton, Sociando, and Clerc Milon, I have considered the 2014s to be “the best of.” The Ducru is profound, I have 18 bottles in my cellar. The Baron and Comtesse both need time but they are great, I have bottles of Mouton, LLC, LMHB, and other gems in my cellar, including 10 bottles of 2014 Chateau Margaux. And of course the 2014 Cheval Blanc I bought recently (I have my eyes on the Ausone). 2014 is a vintage that did not immediately seem to appeal to the critics (thus the lower pricing?), but they now seem to be coming around. The only disappointment has been Lynch Bages, which I have had twice, and it seems like a flawed wine. Nonetheless, I’m holding onto my remaining case in hopes that it eventually comes around after a couple blanquitoes. Gerry and I stocked up heavily on the 2014 vintage when it went on sale in NH at very low tax free prices upon release.

[stefan]

Wow! That is a long list, Jim; thanks.

[JoelD]

Great list, Jim.

Have you tried any wines that are often considered modern/parkerized? I see one or two on there such as Clos de l’Oratoire but most are classic greats that we all buy. How do you figure wines such Leoville Poyferre, Smith Haut Lafite, Clos Fourtet, Pavie and Pavie Macquin etc might be in this vintage?

[JimHow]

I know I've had other right bankers from 2014, Joel, and have been impressed with how consistently excellent they've been. A wine like the 2014 Calon Segur I would characterize as "modern" but not in the negative way we sometimes associate that term with Bordeaux. I find the 2014 Calon Segur a thrilling wine that takes advantage of modern winemaking techniques but is nothing near over the top or Parkerized.

[JimHow]

2014 was the first vintage of GPL that I liked since the 95/96s. We have two BWE wines of the year from 2014, of course, Calon Segur and La Conseillante.

[JimHow]

You know what else is delicious from 2014 is the Coutet, didn’t we have like a barrel sample at the estate in 2015, or am I misremembering that? I’ve got a half dozen bottles I’ve been waiting for an occasion to uncork, maybe with some lobster before the summer is over.

[Musigny 151]

They obviously know what they are talking about.

For most of the wine cognoscenti - with a few notable exceptions on this board - Lynch Bages is, de facto, a super second, and relatedly the most glaring misalignment in the 1855 classification.

The only disappointing Lynch I have had in the last couple of years was the 1985 we had in March which was just an off bottle. The two I had previous to that were magical.

The ultimate arbiter is of course the free market and Lynch is comfortably in that territory. I don’t know why people on here remain in a state of denial about it.

Re Lynch Put me down as an exception. While I agree it is definitely way better than a fifth growth, it’s not a Super Second. Maybe a Super Second and a half, but it is nowhere near as fine as the likes of Montrose, Ducru, Pichons, Palmer etc. It belongs on the next tier with Rauzan Segla, Barton, and judging by recent vintages, Gruaud Larose

[stefan]

>>
[Coutet] maybe with some lobster before the summer is over.
>>

Sounds yummy!

[Blanquito]

Lynch crushed Baron from 1970-1988, was equal to Baron in 89-90, was better again from 91-99 (though neither was especially good in that era), and in the few vintages I’ve tried was effectively equal to Baron 00-05 (I’d give a small edge to Baron in these years). *One could readily make a similar case against Palmer, Ducru and Montrose in at least portions of these eras (but not PLL).*

Now, maybe since 05, Baron pulled away, I have little basis to compare, I did prefer the 16 Baron at the UGC, but then I preferred the 20 Lynch to the Baron.

So in my experience, the era in question is the key. Certainly in my experience, Lynch was a super second from 82-90 and was usually far better in that era than the other putative supers.

[Jay Winton]

As with most shippers, no shipping to DE. I gotta get this state in line!

[Nicklasss]

Lynch crushed Baron from 1970-1988, was equal to Baron in 89-90, was better again from 91-99 (though neither was especially good in that era), and in the few vintages I’ve tried was effectively equal to Baron 00-05 (I’d give a small edge to Baron in these years). *One could readily make a similar case against Palmer, Ducru and Montrose in at least portions of these eras (but not PLL).*

Now, maybe since 05, Baron pulled away, I have little basis to compare, I did prefer the 16 Baron at the UGC, but then I preferred the 20 Lynch to the Baron.

So in my experience, the era in question is the key. Certainly in my experience, Lynch was a super second from 82-90 and was usually far better in that era than the other putative supers.

I guess Patrick that one thing is missing, as you should have started your post with "From my own nose and palate point of view, Lynch crushed....".

I can add a few arguments to help thinking about it:

1. Lynch crushed Baron from 1970-1988, and was better again 91-99 : well when you look at Cellatracker ratings and averages, this is clearly not an evidence. And considering the Baron wasn't in top shape, while Lynch was, that says a lot.

2. Was equal to Baron 89-90: kinda bit different to my nose and palate. While all great wines, 89 Lynch better than 89 Baron, but 90 Baron better than 90 Lynch.

3. Lynch was a super second from 82-90 and was usually far better in that era than the other putative supers : yes, to me too, Lynch was at it's best in that era. But equal to other super seconds? In that era, for me, LLC, Pichon Lalande, Cos d'Estournel, Palmer, even Gruaud Larose, were the most top crop of Second.

I'm kind of closer to Musigny 151, and think Lynch bages is a great Third or "at the very best a regular Second".

[Blanquito]

I guess Patrick that one thing is missing, as you should have started your post with "From my own nose and palate point of view, Lynch crushed...."

This of course is true of every statement ever made about a wine's quality (or any subjective matter), but it would be tedious to have to state that every time we post something. One person's nectar is another man's vinegar.

[JimHow]

1981-1990 in Bordeaux was to wine what January 20, 1961-November 22, 1963, a mere thousand days, was like in American politics.
It was Camelot. It was like the administration of a young 30 year old mayor of Lewiston, Maine, from 1990-1994.
It was a one-off, a moment in time. An aberration. It was the American space program of the 1960s. With the universe expanding and the globe heating into extinction, there does not appear there will ever be another place and time like 1981-1990 Bordeaux, which of course corresponded with the 1980s Lynch Bages of Jean-Michel Cases, and the Gruauds, Talbots and Beychevelles of Cordier, etc., etc. It was a Proustian moment of lost time, a poltergeist, never to return, a realization slowly, incrementally, sadly dawning upon us.