Finger Lakes

[Comte Flaneur]

I am heading up there this weekend...out of curiosity more than anything...anybody have any thoughts or recommedations, particularly any wineries to visit or other things to do?

[Claret]

Hermann Wiemer for very tasty Riesling.

[Tom In DC]

I know you're banned from the Parker space, but try to get in touch with John D. Zuccarino who's a vineyardist/winemaker up that way who seems to have his head screwed on pretty well.

(If you need a beard, just let me know, 'cuz I think you'd both enjoy meeting one another.)

[AlexR]

Ian,

I'm from the Finger Lakes region, but left there so long ago that I'm sorry I cannot be of much help.

Most NY State wine is made from hybrids and, I can tell you now, you will dislike almost all the reds and most of the whites.
So, the thing to do is to target wineries producing Vinifera wines, and you'd need to do your homework there on Google.

The "down home" atmosphere is radically different from, let's say, Napa Valley.
In short, the focus is on fun, affordable wines rather than esthetics and sophistication.
Take things at face value.

Upstate New York (the Finger Lakes is in upstate New York, *not* the Hudson Valley as people from NYC seem to think) is a mixture of New England and the Midwest.
It's a very conservative region.
If you want to eat well, the best way to go is Italian.

All the best,
Alex

[Blanquito]

The southeast corner of Seneca lake near Valois is one of the better spots and one of the most scenic. Check out Shalestone (surprisingly good reds, the best I've had in the region), Lameroux Landing, the ice wine and Gewurtz at Standing Stone, and Red Newt. Wiemer for whites further north is very solid. Have dinner at the Stonecat Cafe.

I agree with Alex- most of the wines are lackluster, but you can find Bacon Noir in abundance, which you can't say everyday. The area is really attractive though.

[Comte Flaneur]

Thank you all of you for the reccos

[Blanquito]

Be sure to write up your impressions, Ian. It will be interesting, informative and fun to see your take on the region.

[Corr]

Probably too late to reply, but I'm also from near the Finger Lakes and I have a somewhat different impression of the place than AlexR. No, its not Napa Valley, but who really wants that anyway? The wines have come a long way in the past few decade and a half that I've watched, and I now believe that the best Riesling in the USA comes from the Finger Lakes. You can also routinely find successes with Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Cabernet Franc. Other wines can be hit and miss, but if you keep an open mind and avoid looking for a lush (California) style of wine, you can find a lot to like.

My favorite place is Ravines Wine Cellars on Keuka Lake. Everything they make is excellent, and the wines shows what a talented winemaker can do with the raw materials available in the Finger Lakes. The other places mentioned are also quite good.

Corr

[Comte Flaneur]

I tried to publish a picture of John Z and yours truly for Tom, but I couldn't figure it out...how do you post phots on here? Phil? Review coming soon

[Comte Flaneur]

The first stop was Silver Springs Winery - it is one of the first wineries you will encounter when you drive up the 414 on the east side of Seneca out of Watkins Glen. One of those booze cruise limos pulled up simultaneously, already full of boxes, and as we watched them spill out on to the parking lot we noticed that some of them could barely traverse a straight line to the cellar door. When we opened the door we were greeted by none other John Zuccarino himself, the man with the handle bar moustache. Had we been ten seconds slower the booze cruisers would have got there first, but they were banished to the far end of the counter. By dropping the odd name here, the odd bit of wine jargon there, we got on like a house on fire as we tutored my young female companion on her first vineyard tour.

John's 2007 Pinot Grigio was a good wine with tropical overtones but tightly wound still, while his unoaked chardonnay 2005 was even better. Of the reds his 2004 cabernet franc was the easist to get on with. The 2004 cabernet sauvignon was a bit tight and his 'bold merlot' 2005 still young. He reckons his wines will age for a long time, some of the reds at least 20 years. These wines needed a few years. The off dry 'white merlot' and 'white cabernet sauvignon' were interesting, not cloying but not my cup of tea. He saved the best to last: his 2004 gewurz ice wine. It really was sensational. It was the best wine we tried the whole weekend.

The next winery we tried was Shalestone, and the winemaker Rob Thomas, only makes reds. Generally good wines, his pinot noir 2007 is tasty - it would not be confused for a bourgogne - likewise his cabernet franc 2007 and his Heritage 2007 - a cab franc merlot blend - sniffing it you could even imagine Cheval Blanc - that tobacco-menthol nose. The syrah-cab-merlot blend didnt really work. Next up Standing Stone winery, where some of the wines were a little dilute and others more mixed in quality.

Last stop was Herman Weimer. The name dropping worked well again but the old geyser behind the counter was so engrossed in Suraya that he sometimes forgot to pour in my glass. But his pours became more generous as we proceeded through the list, and he somehow managed to slip in the superfluous information that he was not married. His sparklers were good (though borderline value at $23 and $26 respectively), the chardonnays likewise, though not quite as good as John's and the riesling really were outstanding, and probably world class - the straight 2007 and 2007 reserve good value at $17 and $23 respectively.

As Patrick recommended we ate at the Stone Cat Cafe, and watched the sun go down over Lake Seneca. We tried a kind of tasting menu and some of the wines were quite honestly a bit ropey. The restaurant where we had lunch the next day was very ropey (Knapp - avoid). The food in Stone Cat was pretty good, but it would have had to have been pretty bad not to enjoy the view.

It was a fun weekend, even though it took nine hours to drive there and back from New York. Finger Lakes is a young wine region, with a lot of 'boutiquey' or small scale wineries, and has a lot of potential. The prices are generally not competitive...a lot of the wines they will try to sell you in the $17-22 range are frankly poor value for money against the opposition - i.e., what you can buy from France, Italy or Spain at the same price point.

I think part of the problem is that small scale production means that these guys can't get very far down their average cost curves. The grape varieties that seem to work best are cabernet franc and riesling...and probably gewurz' too. I didn't taste a cabernet sauvignon, nor a merlot, that I could get on with. We opened the Shalestone cab franc in our hotel room after watching a great blues band, where the guitarist looked like a cross between ZZ Top and Father Christmas. It tasted really awkward on opening, but last night after a blast in the car it was nice to drink.

So I would recommend a trip to Finger Lakes...afterall there are other things to do other than taste and drink wine.

[AlexR]

Ian,

Many thanks for your report.
It has been a couple of decades since I went back to my home town (on Lake Cayuga).

As fewer and fewer people are interested in agriculture in that area, large tracts of land have been bought by the Amish.

But something tells me they don't make wine there...

All the best,
Alex

[JEP_62]

It was a fun weekend, even though it took nine hours to drive there and back from New York. Finger Lakes is a young wine region, with a lot of 'boutiquey' or small scale wineries, and has a lot of potential. The prices are generally not competitive...a lot of the wines they will try to sell you in the $17-22 range are frankly poor value for money against the opposition - i.e., what you can buy from France, Italy or Spain at the same price point.

It's been 4 or 5 years since I was up there, but that summarizes my impressions also. Lot of potential, some good wines, but poor QPR compared to other regions.

[Blanquito]

Great notes, Ian. I'm glad you enjoyed the Shalestone reds, I think they're surprisingly good within the context of the region.

I completely agree per varietals: given the climate and the acreage of vines, cab franc and pinot noir should be the focus red varietals, and riesling and gewurzt should be the main white varietals.

Overall, I have a soft spot for the Finger Lakes, but not so much for the wine themselves. Great place to go visit given the scenery, but as you point out, the QPR is poor even for riesling. How can they compete with Donnhoff 2006 Spatlese 93 pts WA for $21?

[Corr]

Yes, great notes Ian. Sounds like I'm in the minority, but I think the typical $15-$17 Finger Lakes riesling IS a good value and competitive in the marketplace. This might be blasphemy on a Bordeaux message board, but I think its the best expression of terroir I've ever experienced. When I taste that stone dry, minerally riesling fruit it immediately reminds me of the cool shale soil of the place. Who knows, maybe I'm letting my romanticism cloud my judgement. I spent a lot of time in California wine country in graduate school and don't have the same reaction to CA wines - they just don't taste unique to me.

I do agree that the vast majority of OTHER varietals from the FL are overpriced for what they offer.

Corr

[Blanquito]

Corr, what other FL Riesling do you like beyond Weimer (which is excellent)? None of the other FL rieslings I know really impress me: Standing Stone (though their gewurzt is very good), Lameroux Landing, etc.

[Corr]

Ravines is excellent, I think. I also love Red Newt's reserve, along with Weimer as you mentioned. I tend to prefer the dry, reserve style of riesling - it's like licking a stone! (in a good way). But the semi-dry style can be nice as well as long as it doesn't get too far from dry.

I had a Lamoreaux Landing recently that didn't wow me, to be honest. Haven't tried a Standing Stone in recent memory. There is one other that impressed me recently, but the name is escaping me.

In the past Dr. Frank has been excellent, although they have changed winemakers and I haven't tried much from the new personnel. I just bought some semi-dry riesling of Dr Frank that miraculously showed up in a wine store in Chicago - that's very rare! I'll report back once I try a bottle.

Corr

[Blanquito]

I've never heard of Ravines, I'll check it out when next in the region. I've had Red Newts red wines (not bad), guess I need to check out their Riesling too.

[JEP_62]

I spent a lot of time in California wine country in graduate school and don't have the same reaction to CA wines - they just don't taste unique to me.

Corr

While I agree that they may be in-line (or better) with Cali and Washington State Rieslings for QPR, that's not really my benchmark for Riesling. I still find much better value from Germany and Alsace and feel those express their birth place well.

I would second that Dr. Frank puts out some good stuff (or at least did, haven't trried any recently).

Andy

[Corr]

Andy - I think the FL rieslings do compare well to (not beat) the european examples. Not the $50 european examples, but those in the same price range. Although I've just poked around the Red Newt website and noticed several single-vineyard bottlings have cropped up since I was last there, with high prices to match. I don't agree with that - I think the wheelhouse of FL riesling is in the $15 range - bottling $40 single-vineyard wines in an attempt to create a cult phenomenon isn't likely to work. They need to remember they are not Napa Valley!

Anyway, enough rambling - I understand I'm definitely in the minority and also admit that I am an unabashed FL fanboy. Agree to disagree?

Corr

[JEP_62]

Agree to disagree?

Corr

Of course. It's all good.

I should take another trip up to FL sometime. It is a great area.

Andy

[Comte Flaneur]

Dr Frank also came recommended from the Weimer people but it was somewhat off the beaten track

The HW Riesling 2007 Reserve will be put to the sternest test in October - it is going head to head against a 2000 JJ Prum riesling - probably will be like the high school swimming champion racing against Michael Phelps, but it has nothing to lose.

[JEP_62]

It may hold its own. I don't think 2000 was a particularly stellar year in Germany, but I don't really know how well Prum did. I guess it depends on which Prum it will be matched with.

[Corr]

All this FL talk got me hunkering for riesling, so I tried the Dr. Frank 2007 Semi Dry Riesling tonight.... it's good but a bit too sweet for me. I'm remembering that this is usually my impression of any FL riesling that isn't called "dry." It's certainly an enjoyable drink, and it is in balance for the most part (nice acidity), it is just that the flavors are masked by sweetness to me - don't notice much else.

I think there is room for something between dry and semi-dry in these FL rieslings. Just a hint of sweetness might make for a nice wine. Maybe I should open a dry riesling and mix up some bench samples to give my theory a try....

BTW, kudos to the Wine Discount Center for bringing the Finger Lakes to Chicago for the first time in recent memory with this wine. Keep them coming!

Corr

[dstgolf]

Finally getting caught up on some threads. Sorry I didn't see this one sooner. Spent a week in the region last summer and had a great time.

Highlights were waterfalls around Watkins Glenn and Ithaca. Cornel U would have been nice but every building seemed under construction. I like the old architecture of many of the buildings on campuses so I often head for an Ivy League school to snoop around if we see one in the area. Great potential with campus having a river run through it and fabulous waterfall on its border.

Mirabeau Inn and Spa was great in Skeaneateles. Wonderful meal in their Restaurant. Upscale French that allows BYOB. Very Romantic overlooking a large Monet inspired central garden area with coy filled ponds,lovely flowers and the arched wooden bridges all subtly lit at night. If you don't get lucky after a meal in this setting it isn't happening anywhere!

Outlet mall in Waterloo was a hit with Danielle.

We stopped by the New York Wine and Culinary Centre in Canadaigua and looked great. They have an ongoing schedule of cooking classes and wine seminars (for a fee) but if you are in to this kind of thing the centre is very well appointed with a nice set up. It's online with their schedule set up well in advance.

As far as the wines and wineries I must say the best thing we saw was enthusiasm. The wines sure fell short. Weimer and Dr Frank were off dry to sweet with low acidity and poor balance. Hollow palate and disappointing. Red Newt a step down and at least a dozen other wineries we stopped into faired worse. John Zuccarino at Silver Springs was a highlight. He doesn't produce Riesling because the region is saturated and says that in order for the Vintner to make a profit they have to charge a higher non competitive price. He feels that even though there are some pretty good Rieslings in the area you can find better at a cheeper price from elsewhere. His reds however show some promise and we've still got a few sleeping in the cellar.This guy is a rabid wine lover and very knowledgeable. I'd highly recommend a visit to his winery if in the region and he might surprise you with what he's doing with red varietals in the Finger Lakes.

Hope this helps for future reference.

Danny

[AlexR]

Danny,

Great to read your post which made me very nostalgic.
This is where I spent the first 18 years of my life.
As a teenager I hated it!
All it took was to travel and return and see how nice it is...
The climate ain't so great (hot, humid summers, and it's on the snow belt) but I do like places with history.
And I'm glad to come from somewhere with those old buildings and people whose families have been there for generations.

It always amuses me how radically different real upstate New York is from NYC, and how much further away it is than many people think.

It would be pretty snooty of me to be rude about NY State wines. They are different, some of them are good, you just have to pick and choose carefully.

All the best,
Alex

[brodway]

Alex, i haven't been in this region for some time, but my wife and i used to spend some wonderful summer weekends here. You can always get a nice meal at the Buttermilk Falls B&B with a nice view of the fall. I remember they used to serve up a nice (local) orange duck and some delicious home made breads. The wines i believe do well up in the Finger Lakes region are the Cayuga White variety. They are brisk and clean for the most part. I don't remember drinking any memorable reds, although Fox Run used to put an effort into making a decent Pinot.

Then head up to Skaneateles for some drinks and fun. It will certainly bring back memories.

[Comte Flaneur]

As far as the wines and wineries I must say the best thing we saw was enthusiasm. The wines sure fell short. Weimer and Dr Frank were off dry to sweet with low acidity and poor balance. Hollow palate and disappointing.


Danny

I have been studying a bottle of Weimer 07 riesling tonight...Danny I think your assessment is harsh but not too far wide of the mark. It is easy to get carried away when you go on a winery tour and you come home with a bunch of crap and on that cold November evening two months later you say to yourself "wtf was I thinking?"

The 07 Weimer Riesling is a nice drop, and comes out of the block quite hard with some impressive riesling sherberty characteristics, but it is not nearly world class as I mistakenly suggested. I would happily quaff it at a party, but it does not stand up to rigorous scrutiny. I suspect a good Clare Valley riesling would knock seven shades of sh1t out of it. The problem is that there is insufficient acidity, and the wine tastes unbalanced, and even though ostensibly dry is somewhat cloying, ponderous and soporific. It also has an indifferent finish. I only really noticed this as I got half way into the bottle. Don't get me wrong it is not a bad drop for $17, but neither cheap nor expensive at that price.

[RDD]

IMHO the soil on the East coast is all wrong.
I've seen some winery signs here in Maine but was warned not to drink them.

[dstgolf]

We were quite shocked with number of flabby Rieslings that we drank. Low acidity,lower alcohol and none really as dry as they claimed. Soil,amount of sunlight not sure what it is but the wines don't stand up.We were looking to at least get the quality of Ontario wines. Now I must say and it's not loyality to Canada but the Niagara region does some pretty decent Riesling with Konzelmann,Cave Springs and Vineland Estates being some of our reliables and they are only $12-17. With these you can get bone dry with nice acidity and lenght all the way to icewine with every level of sweetness in between and what I like they don't have that petrol diesel fuel going on that a lot of German Rieslings do and it only gets worse with age.

Danny