Cause of premox?

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:38 am

Stefan writes of his 2001 Meursault Charmes Comtes Lafon:

"It is still drinkable, but has the deficiencies of a 30 year old white Burgundy without the interesting tertiary characteristics".

Premox (premature oxidation) strikes again. What a disappointment!

- Does anyone know why this happens to white Burgundies?
- Does anyone care? Are they doing any research?
- Does Chardonnay outsidethe Côte d'Or suffer from similar problems?

All the best,
Alex R.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:45 pm

No, not for sure, but there are many theories.
Of course; yes.
Some evidence of yes, but the problem is worst there, possibly because most other white wines are drunk very young. There is anecdotal evidence of problems with white Graves, so the problem may not be restricted to Chardonnay based wines.

If you are interested in the premox problem, a good place to start is

http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/

Don't get too interested unless you have a lot of free time.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:45 pm

Common theme-Peroxide bleached corks with a blue-slate grey color on the wine end.

Common result-poured down the drain.

I have had simlar problems with Loire Chenin Blanc's too. I am convinced that the corks are at least part of the problem. Why does this problem seem to be confined to French wines?

Glenn

Winona Chief · Post by **Winona Chief** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:24 pm

I've had plenty of premoxed white Burgundies (like over 50% of my 1996s). Not buying much white Burgundy anymore.

I've also had some premoxed Loire Chenin Blancs and even a few Alsatian Rieslings - all of which had that tell-tale blue-slate grey color on the wine end of corks.

No premox problems on my German Rieslings or Sauternes/Barsacs. Since these are my favorite whites, I'll probably just stay with them.

Chris Bublitz

sdr · Post by **sdr** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:46 pm

I find that for now at least 1996 is the most severely affected vintage (worse than 1995), with over half going down the drain. Next worse is 1999. Sadly, many Lafon are among the dead amd dying. But no one is immune. I don't know if any white burg producer has yet taken remedial action, so I stopped buying any a few years ago. I buy champagne instead; so far no problem there.

~stuart

RDD · Post by **RDD** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:54 pm

Any updates on cork treatments?
There was tye microwave technology a few years ago all seems to be quiet latetly.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:10 pm

I have a half bottle (the 750s are all still a pale yellow-green) of 2005 Carbonnieux blanc with a worryingly golden color. I
moved it to the head of the queue to drink, and I'll report back with any pre-mox issues.

Any specific pre-mox issues with white Graves?

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:21 pm

I have had problems, Patrick, and have heard a few anecdotes from others. Mine were bought late, so I thought it was a storage problem, but then some bottles from the cases were quite fresh. Then I had premoxed Laville Haut Brion 1999 that I had bought on release. That one hurt.

stefan

johnz · Post by **johnz** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:24 pm

For what it's worth -- All of my 2001 mid-level white Graves have been very good so far (carbonnieux, latour martillac, haut bergey, others) with no sign of premox. Of course white graves may well have a problem anyway, but I've also done as many of you have -- not bought white burgs, or at least nothing higher-end than Macon - and drinking them inside of 5 years. You'd think they'd get a clue some day . . .

--Gary Rust

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:32 pm

About a third of my 1996-2004 white burgundies are premoxed, but I am definitely going to continue buying white burgundy because nothing compares (when it is not poxed!)

Also, premox is not a 'black and white' issue. I took a 1997 Dauvissat Preuses to the Ledbury in London on Thursday and even though it was clearly slightly premoxed it was still quite pleasant to drink.

Some 75% of my Zind-Humbrecht (Alsace whites) collection is premoxed and badly so.

I have also encountered premox in red burgundy, though it is rare (Joseph Roty and Dugat-Py)

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:06 pm

Comte
If you waited a bit longer for the premox to worsen, the Chablis would also have been beyond redemption.

The premox plague is also grower specific.
The main white Burg producer I have these days is Remoissenet, and none of these have been premoxed in any year.
Yet I have had many grwoer's wines that were largely premoxed. Paul Pillot was my worst example, but so has been Chavy, Genot Boulanger, Jobard, Jadot, Chapuis, Tollot beaut, Morey, and a few Chablis producers like Maladiere.

My view is that 99 was worse than any other year as I had entire cases of wines from several grwoers that were ALL premoxed. yes, every single bottle. The 99 Pillot Chassagnes were pink coloured and smelled of old sherry.

The pox reared its ugly head in 1994 from my expereince, finding Batard Montrachets turnng brown after a few years.

These days I'm picky about the growers. It really makes me think twice about parting with money for white Burgundy.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:21 am

I have had affected Chablis too. In general 1996 has been highly problematic for me.

Does this problem appear to be isolated to only French wines? I have not had issues with Germans or domestic bottles.

Glenn

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:46 am

I opened the 2005 Carbonnieux blanc today from half-bottle.

It's golden color was a correct warning- the wine was undrinkably oxidized. I've got about 9-10 more bottles of this wine! I better start drinking them up.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:43 pm

Causes of premox:

Imagination?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:18 am

Did the Graves have the telltale discoloration on the end of the cork that I keep hearing about, or could this be due to some other cause?

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:22 pm

You'd think people in the trade and at the consumer level would be demanding assurances about this problem, and getting legal redress for their losses. After all there is a basic warranty that accompanies the sale of goods, even if not expressed, I think it's been so since the code of Justinian. I haven't experienced it, drinking so few burgs, but I've been reading about it here for several years so it's not like there hasn't been time to resolve the issue.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:16 pm

Same deal for corked wines, Hound. Policies on returns are quite variable.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:11 am

To me this is a bit different from cork taint since cork was the accepted/standard closure with an accepted failure rate. And of course a good retailer will refund you the bottle and I suppose the allowance goes up the chain or is discounted in the price already in the supply chain since it is rather predictable. But I would say the premox problem differs if in fact it was a choice of some producers of wine (or suppliers of cork) to treat the corks for whatever reason. This would be a deviation from the standard and it looks like the failure rate is catastrophic. The solution seems rather simple and obvious and yet the problem apparently has persisted for many vintages and maybe is still ongoing?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:48 am

Whuzzup says the problem of premox in white Burgundy is overrated.

jal · Post by **jal** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:13 am

JimHow wrote:Whuzzup says the problem of premox in white Burgundy is overrated.

I don't have the depth of experience Ben has, but I completely disagree! Too many wines that should have been to young to drink are pre-moxed.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:32 am

I recall Ben saying something like that years ago. Today that is not a tenable position for any experienced person. The evidence of premox is overwhelming.

stefan

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:31 pm

I see the distinction, Hound, but I'm looking at it from the consumer's point of view: disappointment in a ruined product either way. If premox is indeed the result of some deviation from "standard of care" (is there such a thing for wine - vinous malpractice?!?) you would think there would be an even greater willingness to replace or refund. But given the high failure rate, I guess the financial consequences would be too severe for the winemakers to absorb.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:24 pm

I wonder if both premox and corkiness would have been solved or at least minimized if it weren't for the fact that consumers are the ones who pay for a huge (maybe 95%+?) of the damaged goods.

stefan

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:39 pm

I think there is less incidence of cork when people get together and drink wines at BWE-type dinners than when they uncork bottles on their own at home.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:56 pm

It's that BWE mojo...

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:23 am

We always bring two bottles of anything we're contributing to a BWE dinner, and the one we bring to the table is NOT always the first bottle...

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:49 am

That may be the case, Tom. You are probably about the only BWEer who does that. I think it is nothing short of "amazing" how "successful" we are in drinking wines at BWE events that are neither corked nor premoxed.

How many times have i heard this statement at a BWE dinner: "We were really lucky that there were no corked wines (among the 20 or 30 or more wines at the table)."

At almost every BWE dinner, large or small, that I have attended, have I heard that statement....

When I see the individual experiences of wine bloggers with damaged wines, and I compare them to our experiences at BWE events like Stuart's dinners, or the BWE Friday night dinners, or BWE Saturday night dinners, I mean, to me, and what the hell do I know, I don't know anything, but I think there is a MUCH LOWER incidence of damaged wines at BWE events.

It just corroborates MY view-- and I speak only for MYSELF-- that winetasting is a victim of groupthink.... People believe what they think they want to believe, depending on their surrounding influences.... Thus, if you look at JSCott's cellartracker's notes, I swear you'll find that upwards of 15-20% of his wines are corked. We probably have had about a 2% cork experience at BWE events. Whuzzup, who is in the industry, says that the incidence of premox is vastly overrated.

So-called wine experts like AKR always said he almost never tasted a corked wine. I myself have had an experience with corked wines of probably about 2%, i'm guessing.

People can deny it all they want, and people can say they are bringing back up wines all they want, but I've been to 90+% of recorded BWE events, and I'm telling you the so-called "corked" or "pre-mox" experience has been closer to 1-2% at BWE events, as opposed to the 10-20% that I seem to see in notes here or on other sites like cellartracker and Squires.

And it just corroborates my own view that really no one, whether it be Suckling, or laube, or He-who-shall-Remain-Nameless Himself, knows what the hell he/she is talking about.

Do i have data from BWE events to support my argument? absolutely not. But you will never convince me otherwise.

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:19 am

I'd guess that experience trumps "groupthink insofar as corked wines. Some of it might be tasting more wines that display being corked more dramatically, like Rieslings. I've tasted plenty of wines at BWE events that I thought were corked that others simply thought weren't performing up to expectations, even at sdr's dinners.

And I think your Whuzzup quote about premox is a bit out of date. Our experience over the last five years with wines that should have been mature has been horrible, and I think our cellar is pretty well recognized as a decent place to store wine. I've taken all of our white burgs between 1995 and 2002 "out of inventory" -- in essence, I've declared them worthless. They're still in the cellar, but my expectations are so low that I'll be pleasantly surprised when we open one that isn't crap.

Just my mumbled opinion,
Tom

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:27 am

There have been a couple comments that Whuzzup's comment is "outdated". I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Whuzzup's comment was like within the past year, right here on the new BWE. I truly think if we were experiencing cork or "pre-mox" (whatever that is) to the degree of say JScott, we'd be throwing out upwards of a fifth of our wines at BWE events.

Which, obviously, we have not....

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:05 am

Pre-mox is about white wines, especially Burgundy. And we don't drink white burgundy at BWE tastings. Shame on you for even suggesting it, JimHow!

Per taint, I'd say my own corked/TCA percentage is less than 5%, maybe even closer to 2%. I seem to have a higher hit rate of TCA on old wines, from pre-1990. I'd say I'm middle of the road on TCA sensitivity. I have a MUCH higher rate of cooked wine than corked, so yes, I agree that there seems to be either exaggerated perceptions or wildly variable sensitivities to taint. But the real cork haters claim it's not taint but the variable sealing efficiencies of cork that's the real evil, causing bottle variation and other more subtle yet pernicious issues.

Cork taint sucks but I'm not sold yet on screw caps. But I do think premox is a real issue with white burgundy.

JCNorthway · Post by **JCNorthway** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:35 pm

Perhaps one of the variables that causes BWE events to experience so few bad bottles is that this is a group that is very responsible about how it purchases and stores its wines vs. the population at large. I know that does not explain corked bottles, and even the majority of "premoxed" bottles. But I've drunk more than a few "dead" bottles of wine at gatherings where I have the same wine in my cellar and it is just fine.

Jon

JonB · Post by **JonB** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:32 pm

Tanzer had a long post awhile ago questioning whether the high incidence of premox wasn't partly due to "mass hysteria".

I'm not sure if this has a copyright, but here's an excerpt:
There are a host of explanations for why so many white Burgundies, especially those from the 1995 through 2001 vintages, have died an early death in bottle, and these causes include both closure issues (i.e., faulty corks and counterproductive cork treatments) and wine—and winemaking—chemistry. The latter half of the ‘90s may have offered the perfect storm for premature oxidation: a combination of warmer summers; later harvesting with lower natural acidity; less use of the preservative SO2 during fermentation, élevage and bottling; more batonnage, or stirring of the lees, which dissipates the carbon dioxide that might otherwise protect the wines; and, not least, questionable cork quality owing to excessive demand for these “old-fashioned” closures during a period before screwcaps were in wide use. Two or more of these factors working together may well have doomed many wines. On the other hand, when some bottles in a case are still alive while others are dead, it’s hard not to fault the cork, or at least the quality of the seal, for excessive oxygen transmission rates.

But it’s also true that many relative newcomers to wine collecting have little or no history of drinking mature wines. I can’t help wondering how many neophytes, having read about shot bottles of ten-year-old white Burgundy on the Net, immediately conclude that their bottles are (literally) beyond the pale when they are puzzled by the aromas of these wines at first whiff. How many complex and fascinating bottles are poured down the sink by unsuspecting tasters who immediately figure that they, too, have been victims of the pox (premature oxidation)?

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:49 pm

Certainly we have had some corked wines at BWE events, although they have not always been thrown away. If no one else says something when I detect TCA I just let it pass and go on to the next wine. We were lucky in the 1989 tasting in NYC, with only one suspect bottle, which I am not sure was TCA contaminated (especially since there were at least two TCA sensitive noses there whose owners did not say anything). At Thanksgiving this year we were not so lucky, with three bottles corked of the 33 we opened. That is on the high side. I estimate that around 5% of the bottles we open are corked to some degree, and that 1/3 of those anyone would find flawed.

stefan

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:21 pm

Either JScott and DaleW and James Laube are pouring a lot of good wine down the drain, or Arv and I and Whuzzup (at least in the case of white Burgs) and others with less sensitivity for taint are drinking a lot of swill. And i have also experienced what Francois seems to encounter more frequently with his older wines: Wines that appear "dead" at first but "come alive" with more air. We've had some damaged bottles at BWE events, but nothing close to the degree of failure I see in notes of private tastings recorded in places like here, Squires, cellartracker, etc.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:33 pm

Premox is NOT TCA taint, Jim. Ben's post was not recent IIRC. It is inconceivable to me that today someone who drinks a lot of older white Burgundy would not agree that premox is a serious problem with white Burgundies from the era 1995-2002.

Incidentally, where are Ben and Scott? I would like to hear what they say.

stefan

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:50 am

Guys
I agree with the TCA incidence issue mentioned by Jim but randox/premox is a batch not individual bottle problem.
It is also linked to growers - some wines I've had, the entire case (and multple cases on 99 Paul Pillots) were pink coloured and wines from other producers were perfect - and still are. Same vintage, same village, some perfect, the others entirely stuffed.

The incidence of stuffed WB's thus varies from 0% to 100% based on the grower and the effect is that I'm now only buying from growers that have shown me that they did not produce premoxed wines from 94 onward.

I am also not sure the problem has gone away as I've had premoxed wines so far from 94 to 02.

Did have an excellent 04 Remoisssenet Meursault Genevrieres last night - very young, primary, but complex and compelling.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:51 am

Arv admits to a high TCA threshold. My sensitivity is quite the opposite. In the last 4 1/2 years I consider myself very fortunate to have had only 2 corkers, well under 1%.

My French white premox percentage is over 50%. I am not imagining a problem, it is serious and real with regards to premox. Serious to the point of not buying any more French whites.

I will pose the question again- is anybody finding premox outside of France? If not, then I find this very curious.

Glenn

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:47 am

Claret,
I have never noticed premox in Australian whites (which are mainly chardies anyway).

I would say that the worst year for me with premox was 1999 - what a disaster, and across several makers. Have also had premoxed wines from 94 (few were kept long, but believe me, I've had disasters), 95, 96 (big problem) 97 (big problem) 98 (yet only a few), 2000 (grower dependent), 2001 and 2002 (less frequently). Overall, 99 was the worst followed by 97 and 2000. May be lucky with 96 and 98 - lower incidence.

I can't recall any maker's wines from 99 that were any good to be honest. I had stuffed wines from Chavy, Pillot, Morey, Boyer Martenot, Chapuis, Chandon Brialles, Genot Boulanger, Bachelet and a few Chablis producers. And problably a few others I can't recall.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:48 pm

Mark, for me 1996 was worse than 1999, although in '99 I lost a huge percentage of my Bonneau du Martray Corton Charlemagne. I have experienced premox with all vintages 1995-2002 except for 1998, when I bought essentially no white Burgundy.

stefan

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:12 pm

I'm very sensitive to TCA but have not had a 5% hit rate. More like half that. Now that I've said that I'm sure I'll regress towards the mean and open a bunch of corked wines in a row. Unless the mean really is 2-3%.

Can't comment from personal experience on premox as I drink almost no white Burgundies. It would be interesting to hear what Tanzer thinks about it now.