The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

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JimHow
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The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

There is actually an excellent article in the latest Wine Spectator on the issue of counterfeiting fine wines.
John Kapon's name is all over this story.
There's some pretty grotesque stuff going on at the high end of wine auctions.
There's a good interview with Serena Sutcliffe, in which she says that the wines from the 1930s were already drying up when she was drinking them in the 1960s, and she just laughs at all of the pre-1950 wines that are supposedly on the market. She thought they were old back in the '60s-- the supplies were drying up back then ("This isn't a picture. It is something that is consumed.")-- but now people are "regularly" drinking wines that are supposedly 50, 60 and 70 years old.
It is clear to me from the article that many so called "experts" and "connoisseurs" have been fooled repeatedly and it just solidifies my belief that there are no experts out there when it comes to the critique of wine, that scores and notes filled with a half dozen or more descriptors is all a bunch of BS.
Robert Parker is not mentioned once in the several lengthy articles in the WS issue, but I wonder the extent to which there is a correlation between the rise in success of Robert Parker and the rise in success of counterfeiting? I'm not questioning his honesty in any way and he is obviously not in any way involved in any of this stuff, but my question is: Would there be counterfeiting to the degree that there appears to be today if Robert Parker were not so successful as he has been in his American system numerical ranking of wines?
Do you think his success has played any role in this scandal?
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by DavidG »

If there is a correlation the rise of RP and the rise of counterfeiting, I think it is indirect, based on his influence on pricing. The more expensive something is, the more likely someone will want to counterfeit it. RP has not only made prices skyrocket for wines he rates highly, but he has stimulated worldwine interest in fine wines, and some of that interest is bound to develop among those for whom $5,000/bottle is just pocket change and those who are prone to serious collection mania.

Ithink I mentioned Pavie Macquin thread that this issue of WS was in my hotel room in SF. Good articles. Many people are crediting Koch with making an attempt to clean up the business. I wonder how effective he will really be in his crusade. Will he get a few high-profile guys while others will continue to successfully pass of fakes, and how many innocents will suffer as a result of the black eye the auction industry is getting. It's easy to ridicule those willing to spend $10K on a bottle of wine, but in reality it's got to be painful to find out something you have a passion for is a fake. And who knows how many lesser wines are being counterfeited? Some are speculating that the top end '00 and '05 Bdx are likely targets. Except for those wineries that have employed anti-fakery techniques, it's probably easier to fake a young wine than one that's 50 years old.
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JimHow
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

Good questions you raise, David, I don't know the answer to what will be the outcome of these Bill Koch litigation efforts. In my twenty-five years of practicing law, I would say that my philosophy towards litigation-- which I would characterize as very successful-- has been closer to this statement of Jeff Zacharia in this WS article: "In any industry, there are issues. I never find going through the legal system an efficient and productive way to solve a problem."

On the other hand, and again I'm citing my own anecdotal experience, my most career- and life-changing results have occurred when we've taken risks, pushed the envelope, taken cases to trial, and let decision-makers (judges or juries) make the decisions.

Maybe the wine auction market has become so corrupt that it needs the shake up of the Koch litigation to bring it to its knees and shake out the disease.

I don't profess to know the answer to that question, but I must say I'm a bit creeped out when I see the pictures of Kapon (he looks like some creature from the bowels of "Paradise Lost" or "Sympathy With the Devil" or Zacharia... didn't that Maureen chick have a problem with some of the stuff going down in the Zachy's auction business....?
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stefan
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by stefan »

The practical question is: At what price do you have to be worried that a wine might be counterfeit? I imagine that the answer is: well above what I pay for any bottle.

stefan
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JCNorthway »

Ditto!
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

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Claudius
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Claudius »

Mouton Cadet is faked??
Next it will be Yellowtail, then Lambrusco....

The other point is that why buy 50-70 year old wine anyway??
Better to stick to 82, 90 etc from reputable sources.
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Houndsong
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Houndsong »

JimHow wrote:Robert Parker is not mentioned once in the several lengthy articles in the WS issue
Who is Robert Parker?

- Wine Spectator Editorial Board
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moevino
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by moevino »

JimHow: "... didn't that Maureen chick have a problem with some of the stuff going down in the Zachy's auction business....?"

"That Maureen Chick" did most certainly NOT have issues with the Zachys auction business.
Other players in the industry, yes. I have been consistent about my gripes, and JZ/DZ are not people with whom I have, or have had issue. Please be very clear about that.

Further, the assumption that the whole wine auction industry is corrupt is utterly without support. There are folks out there who give a shit and are working to clean up the situation - or stay away from improprieties all together. Serena Sutcliffe is an excellent example. Further, it is my believe that Koch is using discovery to turn over the rocks and flush the snakes out. He has access to info in the legal process that he would not otherwise. He seems to me to be a methodical and patient man - and will accomplish some level of purging scum-baggery.

& BTW Jim - "that Maureen chick" - really?
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JimHow
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

Blah, blah, blah.
Maureen, all you ever do is show up here every couple years or so to launch your uptight bitchy complaints at me about one thing or another. Whatever.
I'm glad you clarified that point about Zachy's, i do remember you complaining about somebody at Zachy's, but perhaps it wasn't the auction house... So are the zachy's retail and Zachy's auction house two separate corporate entities?

Anyway....

"...the assumption that the whole wine auction industry is corrupt is utterly without support."

Riiight. Other than the millions in dollars in counterfeit wines apparently being funneled through the wine auction industry, everything is just peachy....
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

And by the way, don't get me wrong. i don't mind if you bitch at me-- everyone else here does. Christ, it's been six years since Jackdaw called for my resignation. A couple BWEers actually had medals engraved referring to me as the "former" Benevelont Dictator. SteveH called me "puerile" in just the last year alone, Roberto doesn't talk to me because of my criminal statement that Joe Belmaati won't drink with us "plebians," AKR doesnt talk to me even though i gave him a 1970 Lynch Bages and paid $200 to clean up the back seat of a NYC cab that he puked all over. And the list goes on and on. I'm a "monster" I tell you... oops, that's the ever-so-serious term I called Josh, and Howard Spector ripped me a new one. It's a tough job being a dictator, i tell you, just ask Mark Squires. All I'm saying is you are free to post on other subjects here on BWE besides biannual rants against JimHow.
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stefan
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by stefan »

There was no attack on you in Moe's post, Jim. Reread it, you friggin' up on a pedestal BSD.

stefan, in a jocular mood
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Jay Winton »

but all those privileges of being BD and that custom, state of the art torture chamber I saw at your house for unruly subjects. However, the crematorium I thought was a bit much and I know the neighbors don't appreciate the ever growing cemetery in the backyard.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by DavidG »

Who's the one holding grudges here? Way to turn up the holiday cheer, Jim!

As to whether the whole auction industry is suspect, according to the Wikipedia link that Tom posted above, the Wine Spectator estimated about 5% of wine sold on the secondary market was fraudulent. That was about 3 years ago, and the number is likely higher now. And the frauds may not be limited to only ancient and uber-expensive wines. And any auction house could be an intermediary - most likely an unwitting intermediary. But now that knowledge of the problem has become widely known, I don't think they will be able to ignore the problem. I would think they would be on notice to increase their level of suspicion. Some are probably more careful than others.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

Whatever you say, David, you are my hero.

Someday i'll send you some of the lovely emails I got from Maureen in the past, stefan.

Is there any sort of federal or state investigation of the wine auction market going on? Any other industry that participates in the sale of millions of dollars of countefeit property would be closed down.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by hm$ »

I think what people are gently suggesting (ok, maybe not gently) is that as BD, you might want to stay above the fray (a/k/a on the high road). Turn the other cheek. Judge favorably. And all that.

hm$
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JimHow
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

I'm suggesting that this site has gotten way too uptight, Howard, way too Squires-like. To the point that I don't even want to play with some of you guys anymore, I don't feel like going to Chicago '10, I'm going to save my money for offlines with people who are less full of themselves. I'm tired of being the whipping boy of people who in their self-importance overreact to basically harmless comments.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by hm$ »

Sorry you feel that way.

hm$
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by DavidG »

Actually, the site seems busier the last few weeks, and other than the good-natured needling we've been giving each other about '89 Lynch, I haven't been aware of any recent conflicts prior to this thread. But all I see is the stuff that's posted. I have no doubt that there's plenty of backchannel venting of frustrations. Running a site has got to be a thankless job if you let even a small percent of the undercurrents get to you. I don't think I could do it. Maybe it's time for another trip to Baja, take a break from the Maine winter, and recharge the batteries?
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by moevino »

Jim - you are welcome to post THE email I sent you over a year ago. I don't have it - or I would happily.
If you recall I was not bitching at you as much as asking why, after I hosted you and the BWErs at my home so often, you attacked me repeatedly on the site. I thought it best, and most mature, to take my offense offline - but if you want to share it, as you clearly prefer to address personal matters publicly - post away! I'll stand behind anything I said. I am sure my email was not unique in any way other than moderately composed demeanor and likely lack of egregious profanity.
You chase so many away & I just dont see why, or how you think you gain anything from it.

Sad thing is - I am the 'chick' who can answer your questions on this matter.
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JimHow
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

Maureen, I never "attacked" you, I made a small mention of the noise coming from some of the non-BWEers sitting at your table at NYC '03 when Francois, myself, and others were giving speeches at NYC '03. You freaked out on me in a lengthy email and disappeared for three years. I never "attacked" you, I never even referred to you or even thought of you when I mentioned that incident in a small meaningless post on the other site. Of course I wasn't referring to you, I had just seen you a couple weeks earlier in Sonoma and we were laughing about it, it wouldn't make any sense that I would be attacking you about it a couple weeks later. But in your mind, you thought I was somehow referring to you. That is the bizarre thing about the dynamic of a website. I'll sit around joking, ribbing each other in person over a wine dinner in NYC or DC or Sonoma one week, and we're all best friends, but if I say something far less important or cutting on a computer screen a week later, people freak out. It is a bizarre dynamic.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by michael »

I enjoyed the article. It seems like the auction houses could have done a better job vetting some of these wines, particularly, checking with producers to see if any of the wine had actually been produced in a certain vintage.

I imagine this is a big issue for the major auction houses, certainly bigger than they'd like to admit, as the reward for forging prize old bottles is high while the tools to pull it off and risk of getting caught have got to be relatively low. Provided one has access to it, how hard would it be to refill an empty bottle of 47 Cheval Blanc with some mid-70's Cali Merlot? Sure it wouldn't taste like a good example of the legendary 47 CB, but it might taste enough like a poorly stored example to not raise any suspicion. I'd imagine a 3AM dumpster diving session behind a top-flight restaurant could probably yield plenty of worthy empty bottles. And that's just the easy, low-tech method.

In the larger scheme though, it doesn't seem like it's really that big of a deal. Buying older wines is already full of peril given the numerous ways the wine could have been mishandled, it just seems like another risk one has to live with. What I find interesting is how this problem can be reduced going forward. Simple things like restaurants breaking empty bottles of high end wines would help, as would adding matching serial numbers to labels and corks, etching the glass bottles etc. For wines with $200+ release prices, I can't imagine these measures adding much to the production cost. In fact, if marketed right, it could help raise demand and auction prices.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by WineAuthentication »

I just want to point out that there are good reasons for the success of counterfeiting and the extent of the spread of the disease - two of those reasons are greed and competition. Michael makes some good points. There are huge conflicts of interest in the industry. I've written about them often, but here is a short comment.

An auction house might be given the opportunity to sell a valuable collection of wine, but if that auction house tells the owner that they can only accept half of it because the other half is counterfeit, what do you think will happen? Well, we know what has happened time and time again. The seller moves on to another auction house and finds one that will take most if not all of the wine. There is a lot of competition amongst the auction houses to acquire great collections. I was shocked when Sotheby's told me that a few million dollars of my collection was counterfeit, but there was never any question regarding selling it - on my part or theirs. If it was counterfeit, it was not going to be sold by Sotheby's or by me.

I guess that an introduction is in order, so here it is.

I was one of 'those' people that purchased a lot of counterfeit wine. I vetted those that I purchased from, but I had no way of knowing the proper paper of a 19th century label or the style of a 1921 Bordeaux capsule. I depended on my trusted sources for their expertise.

Due to that embarassing experience, I have been mentioned in Billionaire's Vinegar and many articles on the subject. My embarassment is now quite public. Please feel free to take your shots. :)

My reaction to this financial loss was to set up a website to help others, something that might have been of great benefit to me had it been around when I was buying wine over the past 15 years. http://www.wineauthentication.com can be accessed for free and you are welcome to read numerous editorials and articles on this subject and to participate in the community by providing information that might help us fight the counterfeiters. We are always interested in contacts from those that may have encountered counterfeits or who wish to share information that might help law enforcement or private litigation such as the outstanding efforts of Bill Koch.

The website is not intended to be a profit-making enterprise, and it has succeeded mightily in meeting this objective. We exist solely to help to expose fraudulent activity in the wine industry. If we can also help you to identify a counterfeit by submitting photos to us, even better! We offer this service as well.

One way or another, we have to stay on top of the problem because we are still seeing fakes enter the market from vintages of this decade. It is an ongoing problem. I'll try to share more thoughts with the board if anyone is interested.

best regards to all,

russell frye
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JimHow
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JimHow »

Very interesting, Russell, thanks for adding your perspective here.
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stefan
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by stefan »

Welcome to BWE, Russell.

For those of you who missed the Decanter article about Russell's Sotheby's sale, here it is:

http://www.decanter.com/news/181813.html

stefan
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William P
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by William P »

Russell, this is not a shot at you. Mr. Casey is a very fine defense lawyer (if he is the attorney from San Francisco) and probably had an insurance company paying his bills, unlike you. I suspect that the settlement agreement had a confidentially clause so that's why you are not informing us about the details of the settlement. My problem is a confidential settlements only benefits the defense because the terms could be a penny and both sides bear there own costs. So what I am saying is, I am disappointed. I do understand the realities of you situation as a litigant in a high profile case so I am not critical, I am just hoping one of these cases go to trial.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by WineAuthentication »

Regarding the settlement of my case, I agree. I had planned to take the case to trial after spending almost two years on it. I had great support from Morrison & Foerster's San Francisco office. The cost of litigating cases such as this runs into the millions with little or no chance of financial recovery. This is one of the reasons that I have become a fan of Bill Koch. He is apparently going to fight this battle to the end.

and thanks for the welcoming comments!

-russell
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William P
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by William P »

BTW I think Morrison (MF) is one of the best firms in the country and probably the best in SF, although I am partial to Orrick.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Houndsong »

I just skimmed some of the decanter articles. This is total fucking buzzkill. In October I went to a destemming/crushing party of a local winemaker in Salida. He's making merlot, cab, zin and a couple of whites from western slope fruit. It was a lot of fun meeting some of my neighbors who could be described more as impecunious ski bums and mountain bikers than eonophiles or connoisseurs. I tried some of this guy's "Vino Rosso di Salida." It was a blend of zin, syrah, etc. kind of a vin de table and it was awfully good. Anyway I saw the grapes, the fermentation vats bubbling away, barrels and bottling equipment and I'm pretty sure he was making wine right there and there was a high probability that the wine he is to sell will be what he made. I'm going to buy some.
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WineAuthentication
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by WineAuthentication »

By the way, we have confirmation that some wine from 200X vintages is being 'faked' by taking a different and much cheaper vintage of the same wine and either replacing or modifying the label to denote the more expensive vintage. Thankfully this fraud can be uncovered (literally) by simply cutting the capsule back to reveal the vintage on the cork. We should all take the time to do this. Please report any such 'inconsistencies' to us and we will provide whatever help we can.

Russell
www.wineauthentication.com
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michael
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by michael »

Does the capsule serve any real purpose? wouldn't we be better off with bottles that left the cork exposed such that it could be seen through the glass like on those sub $10 Mondavi bottles?
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by DavidG »

Welcome, Russell. I've been following your Wine Authentication site for a while. Glad to have you posting here.
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Michael-P »

A few years ago I brought one bottle each of something 40s and something 50s Latour to re-sell (a practice I rarely do but at the time I had little income and in this case thought there was a small profit potential) from an auction house. By the time I got around to selling them last year, I brought them to a differenet auction house which said they were afraid to sell them as they might be fakes because there was a slight bronze/gold tint on the lettering. They showed me a couple of bottles they had of similar ages where the labels did not have such tints. Then I compared them with my couple of 2000 vintage bottles, purchased en premier from K+L and the OWC was opened in front of me at K+L, and those had the same hints of those tints. So which are fake? The ones the auction house had without the tints, or mine with?
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Michael-P »

I am glad we have people with real life experience around like Moe, “that Maurren chick”, and Russell, to help us try to wade through these issues and risks.

More importantly, I’m glad we have an open forum where no one needs to hold back on any topic, including our favorite whipping boy the BD! Love you all!
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by WineAuthentication »

Hi Michael,

I'd be happy to render a limited opinion if you could send detailed photos of the bottle (labels, capsule, punt) from different angles via our website. However, except for obvious fakes, inspecting a bottle in person is really the only way to get a quality opinion on authenticity. If the auction house specialist was qualified, the opinion you received should be taken literally. After all, they had the opportunity to look at and feel the label paper, etc. If you could share the name of the auction house and wine specialist with me, I might be able to offer a comment on their comment. :)

Cutting the capsule back to look at the cork might also be helpful.

Finally, if you'd like to open the bottles and invite me to taste them with you, I might not be able to give you as professional an opinion as my own experts, but I might enjoy the experience more.

-rhf
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by JonB »

Maybe a silly question, but does Cos d'Estournel vary the color of their label? I have some vintages that are a dark brown (e.g. 2004) and others that are light pink (e.g. 2005).
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Gerry M. »

First off let me say that one of things I like about Jim's little corner of the web is the open discussion that is encouraged, warts and all. My only concern is when the discussion moves from honest disagreement to personal cheap shots, thats when a honest discussion digresses to mud slinging.

More along the lines of the subject of this thread, this discussion and other other articles I've read are really eye opening and discouraging to exploring older Brdx in particular. However, to hear that 200x vintages are being counterfeited also is really mindblowing. I'm assumimg this is limited to only a few wines such as Lafite and Latour. As someone mentioned previously, there must be a threshold that must be reached value-wise to make it profitable to go to all the trouble. Is there a general guideline as to when to start being concerned?
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WineAuthentication
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by WineAuthentication »

I can't offer a dependable guideline, but over $500 a bottle and you should look closely at what you get and cut a few capsules back to see the cork. We have seen 200x frauds perpetrated on wine other than the very top handful of Bordeaux and Burgundy. It isn't common, but it is happening.
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Tom In DC
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Tom In DC »

Gerry M. wrote:However, to hear that 200x vintages are being counterfeited also is really mindblowing. I'm assumimg this is limited to only a few wines such as Lafite and Latour. As someone mentioned previously, there must be a threshold that must be reached value-wise to make it profitable to go to all the trouble. Is there a general guideline as to when to start being concerned?
As I noted above, there is a documented case of counterfeit Mouton-Cadet, so the threshold is actually quite low. If there was a general guideline, I figure the counterfeiting would simply start on bottles just below that price...
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Re: The Wine Spectator article on wine counterfeiting

Post by Michael-P »

Russell:

I too like the idea of tasing them to be sure! But they are still sadly out of my drinking price range. And I agree that inspetcion is needed, photos can only be a first cut. Unfortunately, since I moved to Dubai and my cellar is in the USA, I won't be able to take photos until I'm back sometime. Thanks.

My point was that I think I've seen as many old bottles as this particular guy, and my bottles looked more original than theirs!
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