2000 Pichon Baron vs. 2000 Pape Clement

[JimHow]

I haven't touched these two big babies since the early days after their release. I've been coaxing them for going on two hours now and they are beginning to slowly display their magnitude. The Pape Clement may be just a tad more expressive on the nose. The ribeyes are on the grill and almost done. This is a big Friday night heavyweight battle!

[JimHow]

Surprise, surprise. These wines are tight as a drum. They are beasts. Maybe the Pape Clement is slightly ahead in development, but these brutes should not be touched for another decade.

[Michael McNamara]

I opened a bottle of the 2000 Pichon Baron about 6 months ago.It was a big wine with a fair amount of tannins.This wine had a lot of toasty oak but the fruit was hiding in the backround.I will probably wait at least 3 years before I open an other bottle.The wine had plenty of weight it just needs some time to come around.

Regards,Mike

[JimHow]

Yeah, these wines are not in a flattering place right now. The Pape Clement is finishing up with tar and scorched earth. The Pichon Baron has been tannic and monolithic all night. My palate may be calibrated to Burgundy these days, but I'm thinking both of these wines are going to age and develop for a long time.

[Chasse-Spleen]

It sounds like people can't keep thier itchy fingers off of these 2000s. I would have imagined that the wines you chose would be pretty annoyed that you woke them. I never tried either, but isn't the Baron supposed to be a real monster of a wine?

[PappaDoc]

I opened three different 2000s in the past four months with the same results... Sound asleep! The Du Tertre, Grand Puy Lacoste (from 375 no less) and Clos d' Jacobins. None opened up on the second day either. I won't open another 00 for at least five years.

[stefan]

If you MUST open a 2000, pop a cork on a lesser right bank wine, as some are not too bad now. Actually, I would have guessed that the Clos d'Jacobins would display some charm.

stefan

[DavidG]

I'm with Stefan. A few '00s were approachable young. Grand Pontet, Prieure Lichine, Monbousquet, Giscours are a few examples in my experience. Most of the others are going to sleep in my cellar for at least another 5 years. The best for probably 10. Though I do appreciate the notes from those willing to keep us posted by taking one for the team every now and then.

[Roberto]

My '00 Cantermerle was pretty open recently. I am on the lookout for more '00 PB and GPL. Hopefully the prices will come down now that they have closed.

Roberto

[Winona Chief]

I agree that the 2000 Cantermerle is drinking well now. My favorite 2000 for current drinking is the La Fleur de Bouard from Lalande de Pomerol.

Chris Bublitz

[William P]

I agree with both Chris and Roberto. The Cantermerle was very accessible when last tasted and the La Fleur de Bouard has begun to integrate over the year. It's drinkable now and will no doubt improve with age.

Thanks for the notes Jim. I think I'll let the big gun rest for a few more years.

[JimHow]

These two wines were consumed from 375s, by the way. They're going to be immense wines someday, I think they are going to develop incredible layers of complexity with age.

[Nicklasss]

So Jim, more comments about those 2 big guys?

I understand you very well. Me too, I am tempted every month to open a 2000. Hey, after all, they are already 8 years old. But I resist, and it is hard. The thing is that I opened a 2000 Chateau Potensac last year, and it was good but still closed. So the best 2000, the more concentrated 2000, the 2000 that will deliver the best goods, are probably really closed. And now, you seem to confirm that it is true. So i will wait another 5-10 years before opening another. It will be hard and I confess, I will probably fail and open another 2000 before that long wait. This is the HARDEST thing with those great wines of Bordeaux, the waiting.

I have the 2000 Chateau Pape Clément in the cellar and hope I will let it there for another 7 years minimum... but I don't know how I'll make it. We're just human after all. And wine lovers.

Nic

[JimHow]

Both of these wines were so lush and ripe after bottling, Nick. Even last night, though, it is clear these are wines of tremendous strength and power... even though I couldn't taste anything. These will both be among the best wines these estates have produced in a generation. We'll just have to wait until they're twenty years old to experience their greatness.

[Comte Flaneur]

Any sense in which these two are over-extracted and too new worldly?...That was my impression of the Baron (at a BWE event a while ago), which started to go "modern" in '98...and of course Pape with the (infamous?) change in regime in the late 90s, which laid waste to centuries of tradition? Not tried the Pape '00 but if the '01 is anythung to go by...heck, even Chateau Margaux 2000 tasted over-extracted and too new worldly to my tastes when I tried it in a vertical a couple of years ago...yourse sincerely Comte (ducking for cover...)

[JimHow]

Comte: Both of these wines were almost impossible to assess last night. I recall drinking the '00 Pape early on at a BWE event with Musigny and my recollection is that he thought it was over-oaked and too modernized. The '00 Pichon Baron was a BWE co-wine of the year (with '00 du Tertre). I think these wines will be great. I've got a case of the Baron nailed up tight and sitting at the bottom of a tall stack of cases in the cellar, this will be a fifty year wine.

[JimHow]

I like the styles of the "new" Pape clement and the "new" Smith Haut Lafitte. Several BWEers and I had a bottle of the '01 Pape Clement in a hotel room at Chicago '04 that we had bought at Binny's that afternoon-- I recall that Parker said it was the first vintage he had rated Pape Clement higher than Haut Brion and LMHB-- and it was drinking beautifully, at least in those early days after release in bottle.

[DavidG]

I remember that bottle of Pape Clement, Jim...

I think a good many (but probably not all) of these "New-Worldy" Bordeaux will mellow out just fine with 15-20 years ageing. If I am proven wrong, Comte, in the full course of time, I will meekly submit to drinking all of your 2000 Margaux as penance.

[JimHow]

Yes I recall you were there, David, as well as Mike McNamara, and that guy Max who used to hang out on BWE, he was from Canada he was a good guy. Trying to remember who else was in the room, McCracken I think. We were uncorking the '89 Lynches in preparation for Thunder in Chicago II against Chris Bublitz's '89 Barons later that evening.

[DavidG]

Who was the guy that wrote the extensive tasting notes? A young guy. He was there - was he ITB? Was that Max?

[JimHow]

I was just thinking about him. He was there too. No that was the guy from Texas, I forgot his name. He wrote great notes.

[Winona Chief]

Max (can't think of the last name) is the guy from Canada. Marjorie and me had a nice dinner with him in DC a couple months after the 2004 convention.

Zachary Pearson (from Dallas) was also at the 2004 convention. I think he is a manager of a wine store in the Dallas/FW area.

Chris Bublitz

[DavidG]

Zach - that's who I was thinking of! Wonder what happened to him?

[JimHow]

Yeah I think he worked for Spec's down in Texas, didn't he? Extremely knowledgeable about wine.

[PappaDoc]

He is indeed Zach Pearson, he posts regulary on West Coast Wine Network.

" Rhone Wines with Lamb
Zachary Pearson
Esoteric Wine Curmudgeon
Local

Registered: 07/09/01
Posts: 1574
Loc: Houston, Texas I have a bit of a group made up of some people from work and we try to get together once a month and drink some wine, usually on a theme. January's theme was Rhone wines, and I had everyone over and cooked - I'll put the recipes in the food forum.

1985 Charles Heidsieck Brut Rose (Champagne, France) $150
Moderate + yellow, with low mousse and bubbles. The nose is firmly oxidative, with candied lemon peel, honeyed biscuit, crème fraiche, and some varnishy notes. The palate is fairly robust, which is enhanced by the oxidative nature of the wine – there’s no “pink” flavors left, but there’s certainly lemony/citric acidity at the core of the wine, and almost a bacony note on the 15+ second finish. This might have been better a year ago.

2006 St. Cosme Condrieu (Northern Rhone, France) $52
Pale yellow, clear. The nose is gorgeous, with mango, jasmine and rosewater on top of a heart of citrus oil and a base of crème fraiche and bacon (this got malo, but it’s rather subtle malo, I think). The palate is oily and rich, with classic flavors of hyper-real tropical fruit and Gewurz-esque brown spicyness, but there’s strong enough minerality underneath that this dries out dramatically on the 15+ second finish.