TCA in French barrels

[Claret]

http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/43702

[dstgolf]

Is this guy testing only new wood or combined new and used barrels?

[JimHow]

TCA is a myth.

[DavidG]

Bummer. 0.03% to 0.25% is a pretty low risk, compared to the 2-5% risk with corks, but any added risk is unwelcome.

[Tom In DC]

TCA is a myth.

Bordeaux must be a myth as well...

[Claret]

I have been lucky in the past 5 years only having 3 corked bottles, and I have a high sensitivity to TCA. A bottle of 1986 Sociando Mallet a few weeks ago was the most recent victim, but at least it was still drinkable albeit with a reduced enjoyment level.

Promoxed Saviennieres and Burgundies on the other hand have been way more problematic, to the point that I have completely stopped buying both. Loire Chenin was supposed to be a Burg substitute but that plan is not working out. Last week 2004 Closel Clos de Papilion was showing signs of Premox and was just barely palatable. I find it very curious that only French wines appear to be affected by Premox, but that is another story.

Glenn

[stefan]

You have got to be kidding, Glenn--THREE bottles in five years? I have had three in some weeks.

[JimHow]

I've had maybe three in 15 years.

[JimHow]

Arv used to say he rarely detected TCA. James Laube detects TCA where nobody else does. I don't detect TCA, yet if you look at JScott's notes on cellartracker it seems he detects it every third bottle or so. Stefan detects three per week, Claret detects three per five years. And I still insist our cork rate at BWE dinners is far lower than when people drink separately. We've drunk what, something over a hundred bottles in the past five years or so at the Stuart thursday night dinners at BWE conventions. I don't recall ANY ever being corked. Maybe one, maybe two. This is why I believe TCA is a myth.

[JimHow]

I think there's a lot of groupthink involved. In all the years of doing blind tastings at BWE events, I recall exactly one bottle-- I think it was at DC '07-- where there was a consensus it was corked.

At Chicago this past spring, a whole table was convinced that Rob's '89 Pichon Baron three liter was corked. But nobody else in the room thought so, indeed, that wine ended up tied in first place with the '89 Lynch among the total group.

[stefan]

Jim, I certainly don't have three tainted bottles per week, but I have had weeks in which I had three TCA infected bottles. In those weeks I drank (usually with a bit of help from family) 40-50 bottles, so the percentage of corked bottles was not much higher than the expected 3-5% rate.

The '89 Trotanoy at Stuart's South Beach dinner was corked. I remember because it was a bottle I brought. There were none at the other two Stuart dinners I attended. My impression is that corked bottles are more common for wines produced in the last 20 years than the previous 20 years, but I cannot back that up with hard data. IIRC, there was one corked bottle at Ian's NYC dinner last October. At the main BWE event I have come across a number of corked wines.

[Claret]

I consider myself very fortunate. I have a few cellar treasures that i pray are not tainted.

A friend with a low sensitivity brought a bottle of Hermitage to a dinner recently and he stated that I think this is corked. Man that bottle reeked way across the room. That did not stop my grlfriend's alcy housemate from drinking most of the recorked bottle after I went to bed.

[Tom In DC]

Gail and I brought two bottles to dinner a couple of weeks ago -- a slightly prem-oxed Lafon '02 Meursault and a mildly corked '90 Haut Brion...ARRGGGHHH!!!

[Houndsong]

It doesn't matter to me if TCA is a myth. Something is real and it makes the occasional bottle smell like old wet socks, and have barely any taste.

[Blanquito]

The 1982 Leoville Barton was corked at the DC BWE Convention dinner in 2008; like Stefan, I know because I brought it.

That said, my clearly-corked percentage is probably 3-5%, but it seems to me it that the percentage is higher with older wines (which usually means Bordeaux for me).

[stefan]

Interesting, Patrick, that our perception is different on the percentage of older versus younger corked wines.

[JimHow]

Interesting, Patrick, that our perception is different on the percentage of older versus younger corked wines.

Not surprising at all, Stefan, just further corroboration of the myth.

Blanquito thinks it's in older wines. You think it's more prevalent in younger wines.

Claret, who has a highly sensitive nose, has only had three corked bottles in five years.

Here's a syllogism that falls apart, again, following JScott's notes on cellartracker:

A. JScott seems to have a very high sensitivity to cork, judging from his notes on cellartracker.

B. James Laube, a Wine Spectator expert, finds taint in Chateau Montelena.

C. JScott tastes Montelena and concludes James Laube is crazy.

[dstgolf]

Bill,

I'm in your camp. I have a very low tolerance and my wife even more so. It was our table that unanimously felt the 89 Baron in Chicago was corked. Goes to show the cross section of sensitivity to TCA. Just because a wine is corked doesn't mean people won't find enjoyment in an otherwise great wine. The proof really is having a second bottle side by side and most people will notice the difference. I have a good drinking buddy whose palate and memory for great Bordeaux is amazing. He couldn't pick up a corked wine if his life depended on it AKA Jim H.

In my experience Bordeaux has less frequent corked wines and yes older more so than recent. Spanish,Portugese,Bulgarian wines much higher percentage. I think quality of corks and sourcing is quite variable and not to be taken lightly. Just look at the length and cork density between wine. Bordeaux corks are invariably longer and denser and I assume pricier. Again no facts to back it up just observation.

Frequency of corked wines is quite variable at our home and we have stretches with none and then will go on a 2-3 bottle hit averaging about 1-3 bottles a month during regular drinking months of 20-25/month. Do the math.....I'm not the professor.

[DavidG]

TCA is a myth.

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[JimHow]

Ok, ok, I take it back...
You're right:
TCA exists...
The TCA was in that part of Rob's 3L Pichon Baron that was poured into all eight glasses of the eight people seated at the table of TCA-sensitive Danny.
The other 30 people in the room at the other tables didn't have any in their glasses though; a majority of those remaining 30, indeed, obviously voting for the '89 Baron above the '89 Lynch....
<rolls eyes>

Better yet....
The TCA is only in older Bordeaux when Danny and Patrick drink those older Bordeauxs. But when Stefan detects it, it is only in the younger Bordeauxs that he is drinking....

Riiiight....

[stefan]

>>
But when Stefan detects it, it is only in the younger Bordeaux that he is drinking.
>>

I neither said nor implied that. Of course I have had many corked older Bordeaux. TCA taint is a well known phenomenon and has been measured by labs in many bottles. Just be glad that you cannot detect it, Jim. However, as Danny says, if you have drink a tainted bottle side by side with a bottle that does have TCA, you will notice the difference.

[JimHow]

I'm just giving you guys the business....

Of course TCA exists. The way I detect defective bottles is not on the nose, but rather the palate.

[Blanquito]

The 1986 Leoville Barton was corked at Ian's 1986 Horizontal... Maybe it's the LB that's the issue.

[RDD]

Danny:
You and I were in the minority thinking the older vintage MichelP provided was off. But I don't cleary rememeber the wine.
Do you?
I didn't think the 89 Pichon was corked.
But a whole table makes me think somthing was up. Odd.
Glasses? Switched wines?
I think I've encoutered more heat damaged wines then actual corked wines.
Then you realy do need a good bottle next to a bad bottle to drive home the point.

[rjsussex]

BD winding us up again, of course!

I'm not especially sensitive to TCA but I drink a bottle of good claret or red burgundy or Sangiovese/Nebbiolo every night and TCA ruins about one bottle per 30. Burgundy and Italy seem more susceptible than claret. Many of my suppliers reimburse without question, the more spivvy side of the trade don't.

Richard

[aimeedogdogdog]

AT Chicago 2010, I think Danny posted later that it's MichaelP's LLC which was corked. I didn't pay much attention because the wine was open on the nose and palate and it tasted ok.

I don't know if Danny's table thought the '89 Baron corked but it did have muted nose and palate, but then it opened up very later at the end of the dinner for me. Still a bit off (a bit diffused and disjoined) but it opened up. I would agree the '89 Baron was corked that night. I was very surprised the two '89s were tied.

I remember at Chicago 2004, people thought a bottle of the '89 Baron was corked. I remember because we were late and there was no more '89 Baron and people told me a bottle of the '89 was corked. We got a pour but I don't remember if I thought it was corked or not. Ben (Whuzzup) was even later than us that evening. I pulled out the bottle and gave him a pour. He didn't think it was corked.

And at the west coast BWE dinner at Peter's last time , Victoria asked us if TCA was over-rated. Shouting out at the same time, Ed said it's not but I said yes. My reason was that most people wouldn't detect it if it's just lightly tainted. But once someone said it's TCA-tainted, people would just stop drinking the wine, no matter how light the TCA taint was and that they couldn't even detect it.

Werner

[aimeedogdogdog]

It doesn't matter to me if TCA is a myth. Something is real and it makes the occasional bottle smell like old wet socks, and have barely any taste.

Houndsong,

Sometimes the old wet socks would blow off on some wines half an hour later, and the wine could be great. Not sure if you gave those wine a chance.

Werner

[JimHow]

Interesting observations (at least from the non- parkerites secure enough not to resort to name-calling). In the end I think the so-called incidence of taint is highly, highly subjective. And I don't think it is all attributable to someone having a "more sensitive" nose than others. I think there is a significant amount of groupthink and peer influence involved.

[stefan]

I think it is pretty well documented that sensitivity to TCA varies enormously from person to person. Sensitivity to TCA apparently does not corollate to the ability to pick out odors from other chemicals. Still, you can learn to detect TCA and separate the taint of TCA from other other things. Probably the best way is to taste two bottles of the same wine, one of which is clean and the other of which is TCA contaminated. Virtually anyone can tell the difference.

[Houndsong]

There's no groupthink or peer influence when I open a bottle at home with Kathy. If I smell something off the bat I say nothing. Usually I'm confirmed. Actually almost always.

Werner, I don't hesitate to call in a relief pitcher but I leave the starter in long enough to see if the problem dissipates. My experience is to the contrary, with bottles I find possibly tainted becoming moreso with time. Less sweet, less flavorful.

[stefan]

If the wine gets better with time, it wasn't TCA. TCA only gets worse. If you are not sure whether a bottle has TCA, save some for the next day.

[aimeedogdogdog]

If the wine gets better with time, it wasn't TCA. TCA only gets worse. If you are not sure whether a bottle has TCA, save some for the next day.

So were the wine at Chicago 2010 corked or not? Probably again everyone's definition is different?

Werner

[aimeedogdogdog]

I have a question. Forget if TCA mutes the wine. Does it have any health issue come with it? If not, I don't think it's good to waste any wine if it's lightly tainted and/or you don't detect it at all.

Werner

[Claret]

There are no health issues that I am aware of, just a tainted wine. I will not cook with a corked wine.

[DavidG]

I posted a long and thoughtful reply... and the net ate it!

Basically, I agree with Stefan...

My personal TCA rate seems to be about one in 25 or 30 bottles. We have been lucky at BWE events. Though I have taken bottles out of the mix a couple of times before even pouring - at both DC conventions.

Sensitivity varies. Often I am the only one who can actually smell the wet cardboard/damp basement, but just as often others will say the wine is off or not showing much. If I am not among geeks, I remain silent as I can enjoy a mildly corked bottle - as long as the TCA is not in my face and the wine had enough fruit to poke through the suppressive effects. Why ruin everyone else's fun and look like a pompous jerk if most are enjoying the wine? If asked I'll make a simple "I like it" comment, and if pressed I'll say I've had better bottles of the same.

If I'm with a group of wine nuts at a comparative tasting, it's important to identify corked bottles. It's not fair to paint an entire production with a negative brush if it was only the bottle that was bad. Though sometimes a whole barrels or an entire year's production can be tainted, ast TCA (and fellow corky molecules like TBA) can be present in barrels or structural elements in a winery.

It does not blow off. I've goofed a few times thinking a wine was mildly corked when it wasn't - something else strange was going on when the bottle was opened. I've learned to reserve judgment if the TCA smell isn't obvious. Another try in 30-45 minutes will often reveal the TCA, or show that the wine is not corked and has awakened.

The varied sensitivity and the ability to mute a wine's fruit at levels too low to produce the tell-tale smell, combined with the very human ability to misinterpret other flaws as TCA lead to much of the confusion.

It is not dangerous. You can buy a vial of the stuff from Sigma chemical. One whiff and you will have the smell down. Immediately after that it overwhelms your receptors and you wont be able to smell it for a while. It's really potent - detectable at just a few parts per trillion. But it is not toxic.

[dstgolf]

David,

Very well said.Kudos! Agree totally. Corked wines are disappointments not a threat. When you provide a 3 litre bottle that you have preciously stored and looked forward to sharing a gem with friends there is little more discouraging in a wine lovers life than to hear from someone that "it's corked"! It is taken personally many times as if the individual had some involvement with the wines corkiness. Yes it's cruel but unfortunately a fact of wine life that no one can do anything about at this time.

Rob,

Michael Ps 6litre Leoville Las Cases ?83 was unfortunately and sadly off.A major disappointment for everyone.Badly corked and everyone in agreement at our table including MichaelP.
The 89 Baron we all thought mildly corked but I recall going to other tables later to check the possibility of a glass switch or dirty glasses which can also destroy a wine and give a musty smell/taste very similar to TCA. By that time maybe I had too much to drink or there was nothing left to taste as few others besides Stefan thought it was corked.

[stefan]

Yes, very well said, David. Just one caveat: it is not a blessing to be sensitive to TCA. Oldtimers here know the story of stefanJr. When he was a postdoc he worked a short while at trying to build a molecule to trap TCA. He ended up burning his clothes and throwing away his wallet that he had placed on a shelf in his lab. That was not so bad, but the experience of smelling the awful stuff at a high concentration so sensitized him that he now cannot drink even a very slightly corked wine. (In his first attempt, sJr was not able to bind TCA. He refused to make a second attempt and later worked with more friendly chemicals, like arsenic, which he was able to trap [Google "arsenic claw"].)

[DavidG]

Interesting, Stefan. I agree it is a curse, not a blessing, to be very TCA-sensitive. I feel like I became more sensitive to it after ordering a vial of the stuff for educational purposes, but I can't think of a physiologic explanation for that. I suspect that the heavy dose just burned itself into my memory, and I am just more able to recognize it specifically for what it is.

When I said that you wouldn't be able to smell TCA after a big concentrated whiff of it, I wasn't recommending that as a prophylactic. Your receptors will re-set in a few minutes.

Certain cellophane wraps are supposed to be extremely fond of the TCA molecule and bind it. I've had grossly corked bottles go from being undrinkable due to the overt TCA smell, to being simply unpleasurable after "treatment" (swishing a wad of wrap around in the glass for a few minutes). The bad smell was gone but the fruit was still AWOL. Perhaps it would be more effective on a less severely corked wine. But with only a few parts per trillion necessary to damage the wine, I find it hard to beleive that cellophane can get the concentration down low enough to really restore the wine to normal.

[aimeedogdogdog]

David and Stafan,

Just curious. What were your take on MichaelP's LLC and the '89 Baron? Were they corked or not?

David,

There was a wine I thought it was off. You took it to Stefan and came back saying he thought it was the same. Which wine was that? I don't remmeber.

Once someone had a corked wine and I asked for a sniff. It was aweful. Other than that, I have been lucky I had only come across a few lightly/mildly corked wine, which were still open, full of flavors, and enjoyable. Some of you mentioned corked wine muted the aroma and flavors. To what extent of being corked you would stop drinking it?

If the LLC was badly corked as Danny described, I am probably very TCA-tolerated. If it's so badly corked, why was it still so open and full of flavors? LLC in the early '80s (with the exception '82) and before was not exactly up to par with itself as now. Was it just a light LLC (by the nowadays heavy-extracted LLC standard)or really corked?

Werner

[aimeedogdogdog]

I think it is pretty well documented that sensitivity to TCA varies enormously from person to person...

It might probably be very true physically. But I think sometimes it's psychological more than anything else. I used to be very sensitive to my hands being very clean that i couldn't stand a bit dirt on my finger for any second. I felt weird that I had to wash my hands clean right away. I am better now and I know that was totally psychological than the dirt would make my skin itch, swell, or pain.

So I guess what really matters is: how much can you toterate the TCA? Is it physical or psychological?

Werner