Jim, Ian, is the wine abstinence salutary?

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:25 pm

The longest I've gone since I was 16 is about a week...

I'm willing to believe that laying off the booze increases mental acuity and decreases waist size.

But what are the drawbacks?

Alex R.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:17 pm

The thing that has been most interesting to me, Alex, has been how easy it is. I fully intend to drink wine again in the future but I can honestly say that, as I sit here, I don't miss it at all. This is the third year in a row that i've fasted. Back when I was in politics twenty years ago there was a stretch of about 3 years in a row when I didn't touch a drop of alcohol, not even a single beer. I've been consumed with finishing my novel in the past year... an exhausting project... and I think it is more than a coincidence that I have been by far more productive and creative during the months that I have been fasting. Of course, even when I'm consuming wine I typically only do it one or two nights a week, toward the end of the week, usually on Thursdays and Fridays. When I drink a whole bottle I'm usually pretty sluggish the next morning and because I'm usually in trial during the week I find that I pretty much have to limit my alcohol during the week. Like anything, consumption of alcohol in moderation is not a negative, in fact it is probably a positive for a healthy lifestyle. But for someone like myself, with an obsessive compulsive disorder, among other mental illnesses, the battle to restrain myself is tough, once I get going. Besides feeling better emotionally and mentally, I also feel much better physically. For me, whether the impact is direct or indirect, fasting from drinking equates to weight loss. I really don't see any negatives in abstinence. There are probably few negatives in moderation, as well!

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Good answer Jim. I'm with you on the compulsive obsessive thing, that I call myself ''being ALL or NOTHING''.

At the same time, as I don't know when I will die, I would feel incredibly bad, dying after not appreciating wine for 3 months... and I agree with you: that last statement scares me a bit.

By the way, one of my resolution for 2011 was to lower my wine consumption during weekdays and drink more green tea instead... last week i restarted opening bottle of wine on weekdays, and after 2 glasses with dinner, i drink a cup green tea for dessert...

Nic

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:05 am

Alex it is very much a mental thing and breaking a habit. I found myself sliding into a habit of opening a bottle virtually every day...I never crave a glass of wine before 7pm, and I would say to myself I just want one (or two) glasses to wind down after a stressful day in the office...but it got to the point that two-thirds of the bottle was gone after 45 mins and then I would polish it off. I dont want to go fot total abstince but do want to get into a groove of drinking three or four nights no more. I want to enjoy what I have for at least the next 30 years when I will be in my late 70s. Liver disease is a silent killer. A lot of people don't know they have liver disease until it is too late - like poor old Nigel. I had mine checked out two years ago and it was absolutely fine but I dont want to be complacent.

I feel sharper in the mornings not drinking a lot the night before...but half a bottle makes no difference. Physically I feel a bit better, but there is not a lot of difference. I havent lost any weight because I tend to eat desserts when am not drinking wine, which I wouldnt normally do. Like Jim I suffer from OCD and various other mental illnesses, but I think I can control it/contain it. I am three weeks through my four week fast and it has been relatively easy. But I continue to obsess about wine - see Lafite thread - and it will always be an important part of my life. My biggest nightmare is to be told by the doctor I have to quit for good. Mentally I don't know if I could handle that...so the method in my madness is that prevention is better than cure. I will aim to do one month a year off booze...I take my hat off to Jim for doing three months, that would be very tough. It is not an alcohol dependency thing; rather I just adore wine too much.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:33 am

One of the difficulties in research on medical effects of alcohol is quantifying how much alcohol is actually consumed. Medical studies showing benefits of moderate drinking tend to define moderate as 1-2 glasses of wine per day (tending towards 1 for women, more for men), but perhaps up to half a bottle for wines with lower ABVs. More than half a bottle in an evening would be classified by most studies as more than moderate drinking. Hard to apply population-based study results to an individual since there is such wide variability from one person to another (is anyone "average"?), but the numbers are reasonable guidelines for risk.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:15 pm

>>
I feel sharper in the mornings not drinking a lot the night before...but half a bottle makes no difference.
>>
Why don't you open a 375 when you are by yourself, Ian? A bottle a day would also be too much for me, but is there any evidence that half a bottle a day is bad for the health of a male who has normal liver functions?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:02 pm

stefan wrote:is there any evidence that half a bottle a day is bad for the health of a male who has normal liver functions?

I would say no, but...

Population-based studies do usually place the cutoff for moderate drinking between 2-3 drinks/day. A half bottle of German Riesling at 9-10% ABV would probably qualify as moderate based on that definition, not so sure about half a bottle of 15% ABV California Cab.

The problem is that population-based studies spit out averages, not how alcohol will affect a given individual. My guess is that for most men, a half bottle a day drunk slowly over the course of an evening shouldn't pose a threat to health. There is a small percentage, however, that would be at increased risk of health problems and an earlier death at that rate of consumption than if they drank less. I know of no way to tell who those people are ahead of time.

Bottom line: I wouldn't worry at a half-bottle a day drunk slowly over the course of the evening so long as you keep up with your doctor's visits and bloodwork.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:36 pm

Thanks, Dr David.

>>
not so sure about half a bottle of 15% ABV California Cab.
>>

No true blooded BWEer drinks CA cab on a regular basis! We did have a good one the other night, though, courtesy of friends--1998 Michaels les Pavots. Its peak is probably still ten years away; at least five.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:20 pm

A half bottle per night may not have negative effects on average, but I'm just never going to believe it is "better" for you than having no alcohol.

I like drinking wine but it is not for any supposed "health benefits."

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:44 pm

It is a controversial area, but there is a lot of evidence that 1 or 2 glasses of wine a day reduces overall mortality, mostly due to reduction of cardiovascular events. Above that and you start losing the protective effect. Way above that and mortality increases to greater than that of abstainers. The problem is lack of agreement over the point at which you start losing the protective effect and where mortality starts to increase. And the plain fact that even if there was agreement, the same dose is going to affect different people differently.

For me personally, a half-bottle over the course of 3-4 hours in an evening is a lot of wine. My thinking is less sharp, and I feel tired. And it reduces my inhibition against overeating. It's not enough to affect my sleep or make me feel hung over or dehydrated, but the difference between the 2nd and 3rd glass is noticeble. Now 3 or 4 glasses over 6 or 8 hours wont have the same effect.

JonB · Post by **JonB** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:48 am

Is it the consumption of wine (or alcohol) that provides the cardiovasicular benefits, or it is specifically red wine, or have they narrowed down the benefits to resveratrol? I have a hard time wading through the conflicting information.

I don't know if the following is current, but it attempts to debunk some of the poorly designed studies:

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/bluc-junerussel.htm

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:09 am

DavidG wrote:My thinking is less sharp, and I feel [relaxed]. And it reduces my inhibition against overeating.

Yep, that's why I drink. Cardiovascular benefits are an incidental bonus.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:40 am

Health benefits aside, I mainly drink red wine to appear sophisticated.

JEP_62 · Post by **JEP_62** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:34 pm

poorly designed studies? Pshaw, I say. Pshaw

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:39 am

I drink wine because I like it. If it tasted and smelled exactly the same with half the alcohol, I'd like it twice as much, and I'd drink twice as much.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:15 pm

I wasn't imputing any of my human frailties to you, David, nor making fun of you. I doubt I'd drink much wine but for the alcohol. This is not to say I don't like the taste. But I love a good glass of cow's milk yet I rarely want or have one. On the other hand I may have 2 oz of spirits maybe once every four months, mostly to confirm a) that I can take it like a man, and b) that yes, I still don't like them. So I'm probably in it for the booze. It could be I'm in the minority, especially when it comes to the fine wine set.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:18 pm

Boy, that's a great philosophical question. I think I agree with hound, i don't think wine would be as enjoyable without the alcohol.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:14 pm

I'm with David. The alcohol in wine reduces the amount I drink. Also, I complain about wines having too much alcohol. I wish Bdx still came in at 11-12%.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:30 pm

We should take a poll. Do you drink fine wine:

a) because you like the mood-altering effect of alcohol?

b) because you like the taste of wine?

c) both

d) some other reason (makes you seem sophisticated, classy; it's required for a proper dinner party, etc.)

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:43 pm

I was joking about the sophistication rationale, as I'm sure everyone knew. But, I have met more than one person who openly admitted that was their motivation. Like learning golf to advance a career. Nothing wrong with that, but not very inspiring.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:25 pm

e) because you are thirsty, in my case very thirsty now
f) all of the above

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:38 pm

Blanquito wrote:I was joking about the sophistication rationale, as I'm sure everyone knew.

C'mon, really? Weren't you telling me that your collection of smoking jackets and swizzle sticks would make Thurston Howell III proud????

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Straight up, I think I actually get more pleasure from the anticipation of drinking wine than from the actual drinking of it, be it the "buzz" or the flavor. Why just the other day I was fondling a couple of Duhart mags thinking, these will make for a nice dinner party some day.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:13 pm

Right indeed, Tom! I have the lock-jaw affection, secret-society lapel pin, and silk cravat at the ready whenever the country club calls!

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:24 pm

Houndsong wrote:Straight up, I think I actually get more pleasure from the anticipation of drinking wine than from the actual drinking of it, be it the "buzz" or the flavor. Why just the other day I was fondling a couple of Duhart mags thinking, these will make for a nice dinner party some day.

That's true Hound. I have one bottle of Le Pin and it is "my precious" - it is not just the anticipation of opening a bottle, take one step back and it is going out and buying the stuff that give you a huge adrenalin rush. I have been buying a lot more wine this month since I have stopped drinking.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:48 pm

Comte Flaneur wrote:it is not just the anticipation of opening a bottle, take one step back and it is going out and buying the stuff that give you a huge adrenalin rush. I have been buying a lot more wine this month since I have stopped drinking.

Absolutely. I always enjoyed browsing a nice wine shop. Now, I have what you might call the QVC effect - probably half a dozen of the better national retailers have my credit card on file. Or it's a cookie on my computer or whatever.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:37 pm

"My precious".

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:06 am

Ian,

You wrote:

>>>"I have one bottle of Le Pin and it is "my precious"

I think many of us have that "precious"...
For years, it was a bottle of 1961 Romanée-Conti, bought for $ 16.99 way back when.
Then there was the drinking of it. Was it a letdown? No, as a matter of fact, although there is necessarily something bitter-sweet about such an experience because it's not there anymore!
However, you can't have your cake and eat it too, can you?

My current precious is a bottle of 1982 Mouton Rothschild, which I will open when I retire.

Meanwhile, getting back to the subject of the original thread, I am currently abstaining from wine for one week.
That's about as long as I go, and am planning on having something nice for Sunday lunch.

Best regards,
Alex R.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:47 am

Well done Alex. My precious bottle is 1995 Petrus.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:20 pm

1998 Petrus is my precious.

jal · Post by **jal** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:31 pm

The bottle of 1996 Lafite that I had since release will be sold this month. Precious/shmecious, everything material has a price.

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:36 pm

I'd say my attitude to the few bottles I have that meet the objectively cherishable threshold is one of fear and loathing. But I do have a 1990 Coutelin Merville that was so good perhaps 8 years ago I'm reluctant to open the other except for some momentous event. It'll probably be dead when I do. It was fun to find a forgotten 2001 Latour the other day though.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:50 pm

I have made a promise to myself not to open any bottles of first growth red wines until I'm 60 i.e. in 3 years (I have a bunch of Yquem, so that doesn't count)
If I open one a year thereafter, that should take me up until such time as I leave for the Great Cellar in the Sky.

I envy people who are weatlhy enough to drink such wines on a regular basis, but not a whole lot.

Best,
Alex

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Jacques, I wish I had bought a case + 1 of the 1998 Petrus. I would now flip the case.

>>
I envy people who are weatlhy enough to drink such wines on a regular basis, but not a whole lot.
>>

If I were wealthy I would not drink these wines on a regular basis. It is a matter of proportion partly and partly that I consider them terribly over priced. I would drink them occasionally just to have a better overview of Bordeaux wines.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:09 pm

Stefan,

I should have qualified that.

If I won the National Lottery, I would not buy a Porsche, nor would I drink Château Margaux all the time.

And, like you, I believe persepctive is very important.
It's for that very reason that I think foreign tourists who only go to Michelin-starred restaurants are missing out on a lot.

In the good 'ole days, I would open about 2 bottles of first growth wines a year. Well, I can no longer afford to do that, plus the fact that I need (theoretically...) to "wind down"
my cellar because neither of my children is particularly interested in wine, and I only have so many wine-drinking years left....

If I could, I would love to drink first growths perhaps ten times a year, but not being able to do so does not keep me up at night!

I'm sure we both agree that the first growths have become terrible value for money.
The theory is that if they "beat" the runners-up if only by a nose, then they are champions, and are worth that premium.

Well, that premium - proportionately - is just too plain high now.

All the best,
Alex

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:33 pm

Hound, I didn't think you were making fun or criticizing in any way - no offense taken and none meant - though my response seems a bit blunt on re-reading. Just trying to say that I would drink more wine if there was less of an alcohol effect because I like the taste and complexity, how it matches with food, etc. Do I enjoy the disinhibition associated with the alcohol? Sure, at times, in social situations when the effect is just a little, but that's also often when I would like to have another glass but doing so would make me feel worse, not better.

The only "precious" bottles in my cellar, emotionally anyway, are ones I inherited from my father. Much as it is difficult to open them, the only way to do them justice is to drink them before they are over the hill. The empties will remain as mememtos. As to the bottles I've purchased that have increased in value to the point where I think I must be nuts to open them: they only get opened to share with friends like my BWE buds. Otherwise, my approach is similar to Jacques': everything material has a price.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:03 pm

My precious (s)
Which one would you prefer?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:08 pm

Mmmm....

1986 Mouton for me....

Houndsong · Post by **Houndsong** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:18 pm

Audrey about the time the picture was taken.

JonoB · Post by **JonoB** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:50 am

Last 24 hours odd for Ian!!