Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

I was reading Alan Richman's tips for ordering wine in a restaurant and was struck by the following remark:

Decide if you love vintages or producers. Sommeliers love producers. They've met them. They dined with them. They consider them infallible, even in terrible years. I love good years, full of surprises from unknown winemakers. You get wines that taste of a moment in time, not of a high-tech cellar.


And I usually do the opposite; I always order by producer. I understand his point of view, though. I was wondering what you guys do.

I am happy to try a producer I don't know in a great year or a producer I do know in a lesser year.

I'm a bit like Stefan - a hybrid. In a situation where I'm not that familiar with the producers on the list, I will go for a good vintage. But where I know the reputation of a producer, I may go with them over a vintage.

Producer

If I am ordering off the list I am usually much more inclined to go for an 'off'/'restaurant'/'cinderella' vintage -

Pretty much like stefan as well, since the name producers in great years seem to be a bit too $$$$$ these days.

Producer.

Hybrid. I generally lean producer if it is an area where I know what I am doing, and vintage if I don't. For instance, lots of marginal terriors ripened in 2009 in France, so lots of very interesting very cheap wines from odd areas. Much less likely to play roulette in the Jura or some other area I don't know in vintages that weren't warm. In Bordeaux or Burgundy, producer every time.

SF Ed

We just went to our regular restaurant and ordered off the list a half bottle of 2002 Marquis d'Angerville Volnay 1er - exactly what I expected it to taste like, vibrant fruit, bright acidity, good structure. Great with any food but predictable to a fault.

I may try ordering by producer from a good year for a change, just to get out of the comfort zone. Since I usually stay with France or Italy, it will be easy to find wines from great years.

I follow Stefan's approach

Both
I buy from the producers I like best but avoid poor vintages.

I guess I'm the odd man out because I would say neither. When I'm in a restuarant I usually try something I'm not familiar with, escpecially if they have a good wine by the glass program. It could be a producer I don't know, or a producer I kind of know but in a vintage I haven't tried. If they have a good selection by the glass, I'll even try two or three different wines during a dinner.


Andy

Most restaurants have tough wine lists. If there is a producer that I like and recognize thenthe restaurant prices are usually silly expensive. It would be nice to say vintage is important but most restaurants list one vintage and bring the bottle to the table apologizing that they've "just ran out" and this bottle is just as good line!Higher end restaurants with better wine lists mean higher prices and I'm usually scouring for region than producer or vintage often going to Spain for value and possibly Australia/South Africa/Argentina/Chile in that order. If I can't bring my own wine then I usually rely on the sommelier if I'm at a loss with the list and hope for some unknown treat rather than an upsale. A lot of restaurants will carry consignment wines around Ottawa restaurants. These are usually quite good,reasonably priced and not available at the LCBO for a number of reasons but typically produce too few bottles to get a regular listing. They are often to the restaurants advantage in that they can mark up the wines more because you as the consumer don't know the retail cost. This may be a jaded view but I definitely drink better at home and with friends than at most restaurants and needless to say I'm getting tired of going to restaurants with meals that aren't as good as we can make at home!

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I definitely drink better at home and with friends than at most restaurants and needless to say I'm getting tired of going to restaurants with meals that aren't as good as we can make at home!
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Amen, Danny. Lucie does a great job cooking in a 2' by 6' kitchen that has almost no utensils (I had to buy a frying pan when I arrived!); certainly better than the cooking at most of the local restaurants. But of course it is a pain for her to cook here in Cambridge, so we eat out a lot, but only at restaurants that allow us to bring our own wine.

Hybrid, but if the price is right the terroir is sound and the vintage one I have liked in the past, I will go with the unknown for a try-out.

My experience is similar to Danny's. Unless we are bringing our own, we usually end up trying something unknown due to price issues unless we are bringing our own.

I'll narrow down the restaurant list by general style to go with the food, and take the sommelier's recommendation if it seems like they know what they are talking about. If I'm otherwise at a loss, I'll pop on the internet for advice.

I always look to value regions instead in good vintages.

A thought provoking question.

There are very few restaurants serving Bordeaux or Burgundy or Rhone in this area. However, the wines they do serve come from areas with consistent vintages.....mostly Washington and California. Just as an example, look at Wine Spectator's vintage score (for whatever it means) for Washington State:

2009: 90-94
2008: 95-100
2007: 96
2005: 93
2004: 91
2003: 92
There's not a below 90 score until 1999.

So I look primarily at grape varietal or blend to match the food, then producers, and lastly vintage (but not really thinking about the quality of the vintage as expressed in a score, but more about the vintage characteristics and the age of the wine).

I am a mess at this, as I don't think I follow producer or vintage as much as my own taste (like JonB?). I usually pick the grape varietal I like and go with it. Ok now there are a producer known to me and a vintage I am familiar with, which one do I pick? It's something I haven't tried yet, nor it's in my cellar. I think I like exploring, given that I know I like the grape varietal.

Werner

I am with Bill on this one.

In Dubai, due to the crazy wine prices, I always order a new world wine, unknown to me, so I go with vintage (although many places, like Chile, Lebanon, etc, I don't know the good vintages!).

Michael-P

I think the intent of the advice Richman gives is that sommeliers will always try to steer you towards favorite producers because of their relationship with them. It may be more fun to try an unknown producer and reduce some of the risk by going for a great vintage. I know that I am almost always guilty, when reading a good wine list, of going to the familiar; a region I know, a grape that will complement the food, a well known producer. I usually look at vintage last. It makes for a good experience but rarely for wow moments.

After all, I can probably cook almost as well as any restaurant in the area, and I can serve good wines at home, why not go for the unfamiliar once I do go out?

jal wrote: After all, I can probably cook almost as well as any restaurant in the area, and I can serve good wines at home, why not go for the unfamiliar once I do go out?

Yes, why drink like you do at home so I concur with trying the unfamiliar (in most cases) (except with guests) (maybe not on weekends )

I take my wine from home whenever I can. I rarely drink as well at a restaurant as I do at home except when I take my own.

This is hard. Hmmm, all has plusses and minusses, then there is Importer. Some importers I trust even if an unknown wine. Some years are so excellent it doesn't really matter (if you want just a good wine). Some bad years a great producer will still make a great wine. You have to pay for it though.

You want an affordable good wine go with vintage. You want the best wine no matter go with producer.

I'll give a score of 110 to anyone who can tell the importer of an unknown wine in a restaurant!

Tom In DC wrote:I'll give a score of 110 to anyone who can tell the importer of an unknown wine in a restaurant!

I have no idea what this means. However, I'll trust Kysela to import a good wine.

Tell an importer???? Whatever. Impossibility craziness.

Tom, sometimes you say the funniest things.

Really??? I'll refer you back to the original post, alch: something along the lines of "tips for ordering wine in a restaurant ". Into this context, I'm pretty sure you introduced "then there is Importer. Some importers I trust even if an unknown wine." SO, I suggested that anyone who could divine the importer of an unknown producer on a restaurant wine list would be deserving of 110 points on a 100 point scale, i.e., beyond perfect.

As an aside, doesn't your use of the capital "I" in Importer seem a bit pretentious even to you?

Be that as it may, I have to admit that I once saw a "Terry Theise" section on a restaurant wine list, and of course, I bit...

Tom In DC wrote:Really??? I'll refer you back to the original post, alch: something along the lines of "tips for ordering wine in a restaurant ". Into this context, I'm pretty sure you introduced "then there is Importer. Some importers I trust even if an unknown wine." SO, I suggested that anyone who could divine the importer of an unknown producer on a restaurant wine list would be deserving of 110 points on a 100 point scale, i.e., beyond perfect.

As an aside, doesn't your use of the capital "I" in Importer seem a bit pretentious even to you?

Be that as it may, I have to admit that I once saw a "Terry Theise" section on a restaurant wine list, and of course, I bit...

Tom, are you on drugs? What is your problem?

Whatever, alch.