Bordeaux, Parker, etc... It's all becoming irrelevant to me.

[AlexR]

Jim,

I guess what I was trying to say in the last sentence of my previous post is this: if your divorce is definitive, does that not negate your role as manager of this forum?

Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to see you go, and most definitely do not wish to usurp you. It's just that the contradiction, if you maintain it, is just too paradoxical. Downright impossible, in fact.

As for "the Bordelais", please understand that many, many wine producers are suffering in Bordeaux. There are foreclosures, and vines are being uprooted.
I really have to stress the fact that it is just plain wrong to assimilate the fancy, expensive wines, the tiny tip of the iceberg, with the people who make Bordeaux wine.
It would be like being down on Muslims because some die-hard terrorists claim to be of that faith.
Rail against the great growths if you wish, and I will even join you there, for the most part.
But please don't make the mistake of confusing them with the over 5,000 other wine estates in this part of the world.

Alex

[JimHow]

Wow, so solemn, Alex!
As a dictator, Alex, albeit a benevolent one, I can dictate what happens.
Thus, it is not "impossible" for me to be sick of the game that Bordeaux has become, and yet still manage BWE.
Why? Because I say so. Doesn't sound "impossible" to me at all.
So, with all the struggling properties, and the foreclosures, etc, is the "success" <rolls eyes> of the Big 20-30 properties good, bad, or a non-factor in the commercial health of the region? I know what my answer is, but I'm curious to hear yours.

[DavidG]

Alex, I am just repeating what I hear from people who claim to be very close to the business. These statements can be easily found by anyone who takes the time to surf the various wine web sites. They say that the first growths and some of the other richer estates are holding back much larger portions of inventory than ever before - a much different scenario than the historical practice of releasing a small first tranche, then subsequent tranches at higher prices. Perhaps they are making things up, but much of what we hear about futures is rumor anyway. I suppose I have as much hard evidence that they are holding back as you have that they have sold out. Do you have copies of invoices from Lafite, Latour, Margaux, Haut Brion, Mouton?

[DavidG]

As for "the Bordelais", please understand that many, many wine producers are suffering in Bordeaux. There are foreclosures, and vines are being uprooted.
I really have to stress the fact that it is just plain wrong to assimilate the fancy, expensive wines, the tiny tip of the iceberg, with the people who make Bordeaux wine.

I completely agree with this Alex. It's just that a lot of us have "grown up" with the first growths, super seconds, and other superstars. At least those of us who have been in the game long enough to remember when they were affordable. And that's what garners our attention. Is that unfair? Sure, life is unfair. But people tend to talk about the superstars and the winners, the one in a million huge successes, not the vast bulk of the average players. It is like that in sports, theatre, business, just about any human endeavor. When I have posted above about "the Bordelais" I have tried to be clear that I am talking about the top estates, not the average grower. If I have failed in that, I apologize, and re-emphasize that it is the top 10-20 estates that I think are taking advantage of the huge increases in prices. Whether this is a wise move or not remains to be seen, but I suspect that the top estates have enough money in the bank and wine in the cellar to weather even a bubble bursting. Not so the little guys.

[DavidG]

Alex, this forum stands for more than just the love of Bdx. A lot of friendships have been forged here, we talk about all sorts of wines besides Bdx, and all sorts of stuff besides wine. I don't really see any contradiction in Jim's loss of passion about Bdx and his running the site. He could rename it EX-BWE for all I care, and I'd still look in to see what my buddies were up to. Besides, as he said, it's his house, and he makes the rules.

[Houndsong]

Unless demand is very inelastic, and I don't think it is for discretionary, luxury goods generally, I don't see how holding back supply to cause skyrocketing prices is a profit-maximizing model. Besides I think most businesses would rather clear inventory at what are record levels than sit on it and cause an ever higher price spike, unless they were very sure they could realize the spike price later on. Basically you're suggesting that the top estates are engaged in a form of speculation as well.

[AlexR]

Jim,

Gotcha. You stay on as Benevolent Dictator no matter what.

You also wrote:

"So, with all the struggling properties, and the foreclosures, etc, is the "success" <rolls eyes> of the Big 20-30 properties good, bad, or a non-factor in the commercial health of the region? I know what my answer is, but I'm curious to hear yours"

Gosh, tough question. In the past, the great growths were seen as the "flagships" and "driving force" of Bordeaux. It was thought that their fabulous reputation and the magic of the name "Bordeaux" rubbed off on the more modest estates.
But the gap has become just too (expletive deleted) big at this stage. You can buy, wait for it, a hundred cases of 12 bottles of Bordeaux for the price of one bottle of Lafite - which you then, of course, need to age for 20 years before drinking...
The name wines, which become more and more like luxury brands with each passing year, and the affordable wines are now totally disconnected. There is also a perverse effect of this divide. When confronted with the challenges of marketing basic Bordeaux, some of the powers-that-be bristle and defend themselves by saying, "but don't we make the greatest wines in the world?", hiding beneath the skirts of the great growths - instead of calling themselves into question, or acknowledging that quality is very uneven at the lowest level.

As said earlier on, the very meaning of the name "Bordeaux" has been corrupted on certain foreign markets to mean great growths.
This leaves the other 95% of growers well and truly in the lurch. I would say they are not suffering unduly because of the economic success of the great growths. But they sure as hell aren't benefiting from it!

David,

What you've told me seems like hearsay. Perhaps informed hearsay but, honestly, the truth is extremely complicated and even being here with many friends in the trade, it is extremely difficult to get a handle on what's actually happening. This is especially true when one considers that the châteaux's commercial policies vary greatly from estate to estate. This is why I am wary of you - or anyone - making generalizations. Nothing personal.
You ask if I had any hard proof that the châteaux had sold out their wine. Well, I never said they had! There are indeed market tendencies, but how widespread they are is another kettle of fish. I think there are as many answers to this as there are châteaux!

As for your comment that you have grown accustomed over decades to a certain framework of pricing and regret this has gone, I agree wholeheartedly.

Last, but not least, I hear you with regard to the importance of the social network aspect of the of BWE.

All the best,
Alex

[JimHow]

I'm surprised after all the years you've known me, Alex, that you don't realize that a lot of what I write here is hyperbole and stirring up hornet's nests. Although I must say I really did have to stop reading after the first two paragraphs in the last Advocate, and I truly am tired of all the bullshit. I won't even go into the animated, shall we call it, discussion I had via email with the managers of the New Hampshire stores over the sudden disappearance of the '08 Carruades, Duhart, and Lafite a couple weeks ago. The bullshit of the Bordeaux marketplace has become exhausting.

[DavidG]

Hound, that's exactly what I am suggesting. They are speculating that prices will continue to rise, and contributing to upward price pressure by limiting supply. Perhaps a risky bet, but perhaps not if you take a really long view, and if you are one of the top estates. I am sure there are plenty of holes that can be punched in this argument from an economic standpoint, but then economics is not my strong point, nor is it 100% reliable. Unpredictable stuff happens that can make any prediction, regardless of how likely or unlikely, wrong... or right.

Alex, it is hearsay. I haven't been to the cellars of the first growths to see first hand how much they are holding back. I have heard others say that they have seen this, but I have to take their word for it, and they may not know what they are talking about or they may have other agendas. I'm not here to prove my case to a jury, but to give an opinion and discuss among friends. You should be skeptical. I happen to believe what I've heard, but it doesn't prove it's true.

[DavidG]

discussion I had via email with the managers of the New Hampshire stores over the sudden disappearance of the '08 Carruades, Duhart, and Lafite a couple weeks ago.

Hmm, could it be government employees looking to make a little profit for themselves, at the expense of the citizens they are being paid, with New Hampshirites tax dollars, to serve? Or maybe just a consumer/speculator taking advantage of an arbitrage opportunity. Probably not enough scandal there to get the press interested.

[JimHow]

Yeah, it was a very interesting discussion, David.
Suffice to say, threat of going to the press was raised as an option.
In the end, I just decided to let it go, and hope that they'll be a little spooked next time.

[JonoB]

And to think that some silly little classification from the 19th century caused this!

What was this based on?

Land Value? Or Was that how much the wine fetched for?
Makes Cru Bourgeouis classifications look like the Spanish Inquisition...

I'm going to defend the little people now! Just because they were rubbish then, doesn't mean that they are rubbish now! Or were they, there are more growths in Margaux than anywhere else because it was closer to Bordeaux than St. Estephe (it is a slog to get to Montrose even today by car). So these little people with the right money and investment may actually make better wines than the firsts? Maybe they already do? Maybe they just don't adhere to the taste of HWSRN?

Or heaven-forbid, maybe WE don't give them the time of day, because they don't blinding well say Cru Classé en 85BC by Plato and Plini the elder :p

(All comments made here are most firmly Tongue in cheek, but I think that small producers in Bordeaux are unfairly not given the time of day for various reasons).

[AlexR]

Jonathan,

Yes, people don't like to stray very far from the beaten path...

People also like to be guided, whereas critics like Parker don't help them out much with the affordable wines.
They also need to be able to *find* the good-value wines on their market.

It's a vicious circle there, however. They won't find wines that importers don't feel there's a ready market for.
And there can be no ready market unless the wine is either publicized by the media or pushed by the wine trade.
The latter doesn't make the effort because they feel that "Bordeaux" = great growths to so many people, that why bother going against the tide?

Of course the European market for Bordeaux is radically different from the American one. Belgian, German, Swiss, Danish, and English consumers buy inexpensive Bordeaux in huge quantities.
And they don't snub entire vintages either.

Hey, it's Jim's or anybody else's right to drink great growths and nothing else from Bordeaux.
I'm not saying he's wrong-headed or ignorant or anything else.

What I *will* say is that it would be a pleasure sometime to go down to my cellar and bring up a half dozen bottles of inexpensive Bordeaux I happen to like and to share them with Jim.
Because I *know* there is good stuff that he or I or anybody can afford.

On a tangent, I dread to think what will happen if the US lifts the embargo on Cuba. The American demand for Cuban cigars would drive prices outta site.
What I think I'd do is smoke Nicaraguan and Dominican stogies and save the Cubans for special occasions.
A bit like most of us will have to do in the coming years with classified growth Bordeaux.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[JimHow]

Alex: I have had many, many, many "lesser" growths from Bordeaux over the years. It is not like I've only drunk the top wines of Bordeaux. In my own experience, I find a significant drop off between these lesser properties and the top wines. I've had some fairly nice lesser wines from Bordeaux. Pleasant enough. Just not anything to write home about. Generally not anything of any great ageworthiness, another thing that is a big appeal for me about Bordeaux. I would even say the Burgundy village wines have a better ability to age than those $10-20 Bordeaux "village" wines. I have many things in my life I am passionate about: The great growths of Bordeaux; my literaray pursuits; great opera; my musical recording pursuits; baseball; politics; many other things.... In general, $10-20 Bordeaux wines are just not something I find myself getting passionate about.

[JimHow]

But, I'm glad that those $10-20 Bordeauxs excite your passions. Different strokes for different folks, it is what makes the world go 'round.

[AlexR]

Fine enough, Jim, although I think the line between great growths and other estates that didn't make it into the classification for one reason or another is pretty blurry.

Examples:
- worthwhile non-classified wines "discovered" by critics such as Parker (Valandraud, Le Dôme, Domaine de l'A, La Mondotte Le Pin, etc.)
- wines from Pomerol, which has no classification whatsoever
- cru bourgeois wines, the best of which seem to me unquestionably on a par with the bottom end of the classified estates in the Médoc
- the wines of Saint-Emilion, whose classification fluctuates

I'm not necessarily referring to "cheap and cheerful" Bordeaux in my comments on this thread (Côtes de Bourg, Bordeaux Supérieur and such). I'm also thinking of serious wines like Poujeaux, Sociando Mallet, Potensac, Phélan Ségur, Carmes Haut Brion, etc.
Plus a whole bunch of similar wins with a lower profile.

In other words, I respect the classifications, but have no religious obedience towards them (I'm not implying you do Jim).
The "cut off" point of not being classified is too arbitrary to me... Whereas the 1855 classification has stood the test of time to a remarkable degree, it still needs updating by wine lovers, and doesn't tell the whole story by any means.
In the same way that Lynch Bages is a 5th growth that's more like a 2nd growth these days, and 2nd growth Rauzan Ségla more like a fifth, some crus bourgeois, and very affordable ones at that, have been de facto bumped up into the classified category.

Those are the wines for Bordeaux enthusiasts who drink wine instead of labels, and which gave not gone sky-high in price.

All the best,
Alex

[JonoB]

Don't get me started on Cubans... I hope the embargo never gets lifted... I hope they stuff Castro and put strings on him and parade him around like a puppet after he's gone... "the miracle of Cuban medical schools and the benefit of Communism" well they do have a highly literate and medically cared for population! and so to be fair, we will lift the embargo on everything other than Cigars so that the Cubans can have those medical supplies (they've done a darn good job without them I have to say), because it won't be "pre-embargo" cigars that fetch the pennies in the future... But "embargo" cigars that cut the mustard. We will long for those days and those stories and inadvertedly push all the prices up by going on and on about the current market place!

I see the future looks bleak, but if there is any consolation, Diplomaticos, Partagas and all those little people will still represent value and a long for the day that a Fuente Fuente Opus X from Dominica is cheaper than a Cohiba, as I genuinely think, however much I love the Maduro Rapper Cohibas and the Robusto that the Opus X are better being one of only a handful where the Tobacco in its entirety only comes from that island. The family also ran one of the smaller houses in Cuba but created a new brand rather than being the Dominican Whatever it is (boy have I burnt my fingers in my youth at Guam airport!) which was a brilliant move on their part.

Why sell off the back of their old reputation (the tobacco isn't the same... Terroir again) but forge a new identity with their know how.... Which is my final piece to Jim on this. Arturo Fuente did it... It is possible to find greatness in the unknown. I'm sure that a visit to Bordeaux to visit Alex will certainly pull out some gems on a par to the great growths that never ever find their way across the pond.

[JimHow]

Of course the lines aren't exact, Alex.
But there are some general ranges of wines that I like to drink, and they tend to overlap with the classified growths.
Sure, there's the very occasional exception. Some wines, like a Poujeaux or Pontesac, provide the very occasional exception.
Generally, I don't share the excitement over Poujeaux that generates a lot of discussion here.
Overall, though, the lesser Bordeaux wines just do not wow me. They are just everyday to me. They are pretty boring.
Are they swill? By no means. Are they generally "good"? Sure.
Are they anything to obssess over? Not even close.
They aren't anything to give even a second thought to. They are generally no better and no worse than the average wine from California or Argentina or Australia that you might find on the supermarket shelf.
The typical $20 Medoc or the $9.00 Rosemount Shiraz from the supermarket shelf?
A tough call.
I'd probably go with the shiraz.
A few weeks back I posted a picture of four 2005 Bordeauxs that a local attorney gave me as a gift. You commented on them. I don't recall the names of any of them, but they were priced between $12 and $28 in NH.
One (not the most expensive) was decent. Two of them were below average. The cheapest one was undrinkable.
You can't make someone love you, Alex, the feeling is either there or it is not.

[stefan]

>>
2nd growth Rauzan Ségla more like a fifth
>>

Gosh, Alex, if Rauzan Segla should be a fifth, then Rauzan Gassies should be a fiftieth.

[Winesense]

Funny somebody mentioned the 1983 Palmer. Some years ago one Wine merchant I consider a very good taster mentioned that he confused the 1983 D'Angludet for the 1983 Palmer in a blind tasting.
Well, I have never tried the 1983 Palmer, but I bought the 1983 D'Angludet. The simularity can be explained since Jimmy Sichel has stakes on Palmer and owns D'Angludet.
I can confirm that the 1983 D'Angludet is an excellent wine and tastes like a great Palmers I know from other vintages.
I am a big fan of Chateau Margaux, but I am not buying since the price is insane.
I was told that there is nothing comparable in the world. Margaux is unique I was told. No, it is not. There is a small vinyard that was originally part of Margaux. I was given to a former cellermaster of Chateau Margaux. They produce wines that tastes like Chateau Margaux from the past, not as concentrated as todays Margaux I mean.

[stefan]

Jim, would you really rather drink a cheap Rosemount Shiraz than a decent petite chateau Bordeaux?!?!?!

I love many little Bordeaux wines. I look forward to drinking tonight a 2000 Corbin. You would not mistake it for Cheval Blanc or Figeac, but I expect that it will taste good with the veal chops Lucie will grill.

[Winesense]

Have you tasted jean Faure, the property Mr. Decelle has resurrected? I used to be famous in the past. The property was considered about level with Cheval Blanc. I had the 1970 which was great. Then they produced under performing wines and stop production.
Since 2004 Mr Decelle is producing decent wine again, since 2006 it is great wine. The vineyard neighbors La Conseilante, Cheval Blanc and Evangelie.
Try for yourself.

[Houndsong]

I've had come-ons for the Jean Faure in a couple of vintages and thought about buying a few but it didn't happen.

I'm beginning to think Jim is just sending us up. What is tell tale is as this thread goes on "Jim's" posts are reading like the ghostofpomerollover. In fact, I think Jeff Leve has stolen Jim's credentials and is posting all this stuff. Jeff, welcome back and very funny, you had me going there. Now please untie the Benevolent Dictator and restore him to his laptop.

[JimHow]

I don't know how else to phrase it, Stefan: lower end Bordeaux does not excite me. 2000 Corbin is okay. 2005 Lanessan at $17 is nice. I'm sure there are exceptions. In general, though, lower end Bordeaux does not do it for me. Maybe there's a reason why so many lower end Bordeaux properties are failling? Maybe it is just because their wines aren't that good?

[JimHow]

Boy, I AM sounding like a snob, Hound, aren't I!

[JimHow]

One thing I'll agree with Alex about is that some good wines can be had in off vintages.
I've previously stated, for example, that the $35 Lagrange from 2007 is better than the 2005 Lagrange.
The problem is that, basically overnight, even off-vintage Bordeaux is now being priced ridiculously.
I think Gerry said previously that the 2008 Lagrange is going to be over $70 in NH.

[Houndsong]

I never said Jeff was a snob and actually agreed with him on many points. But there are echoes here in your use of terms like "boring" to describe your experiences with second rank bdx, which is why I thought you were him for a moment (despite your wholesale attacks on his, uh, what's the would-be opposite of "protoge"?). But I'm on board with the theory that wine appreciation is a complicated, emotional thing. Although I stand firm in my conviction that there is nothing to "know," "comprehend" or "understand" about a wine.

It's obvious where this is going now. The parallels are compelling. Lafite in particular is "too big to fail." It needs to be broken up, as do many of top estates. Margaux is especially so geographically parcellated it should be spun of into several medium to micro chateau.

Protoge = proto protege

[Winesense]

I think it's unrealistic to think you can buy that same great wines for a reasonable price all your life. There are lots of opportunities, but you have to research.
When we look at Pontet Canet I bought the 2003 for next to nothing and today I stop buying.
Lynch Bages is the similar story. Great wines will be discovered and get expensive.
But at the same time new opportunities are opening up.

[AlexR]

Hound,

Of course, I *meant* to write that Rauzan Gassies and *not* Rauzan Ségla is more like a 5th… Sorry ‘bout that.

Winesense,

You wrote:
“I was told that there is nothing comparable in the world. Margaux is unique I was told. No, it is not. There is a small vinyard that was originally part of Margaux. I was given to a former cellermaster of Chateau Margaux. They produce wines that tastes like Chateau Margaux from the past, not as concentrated as todays Margaux I mean”
This was indeed the case for Ch. des Eyrins, but it was sold 2 years ago to the Gonet-Médeville family (chx. Gilette, Respide-Médeville, etc.)
http://gonet-medeville.com/chateau-des- ... eville.php
I’ve never actually had the wine, but I’ve got one bottle each from 2 vintages and will report on BWE.

Hound again (taking comments in order):

You wrote:
“It's obvious where this is going now. The parallels are compelling. Lafite in particular is "too big to fail." It needs to be broken up, as do many of top estates. Margaux is especially so geographically parcellated it should be spun of into several medium to micro chateau”.

What a radical idea! Instead of Château Lafite at $ 1 500 a bottle, we could have “regular Lafite” at that price and “super Lafite” at 3,500 a bottle!
It’s true that Lafite Rothschild has 105 hectares of vines – compare that to the total area of Burgundy grands crus!
In fact, the first growths have become brands. They’ve always been status symbols, and now they have gone one step further into the Rolex category.

Jim,

I think it would be a good idea at the next BWE tasting to sneak in a few non-classified wines. I maintain that, if the tasting were blind and the wines carefully chosen, they would upset the apple cart, smash the pre-established border, defy the hierarchy, and set the cat among the pigeons (enough clichés for you?).

Winesense wrote:
« Great wines will be discovered and get expensive.
But at the same time new opportunities are opening up”.

I believe that this is the most intelligent way to see the situation. The Japanese ideogram for “danger” also means “opportunity”… While first growths may be a thing of the past for most of us, there is a whole world of Bordeaux wine to discover and some new kids on the block that deserve our attention.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[JonoB]

It isn't just Bordeaux that has its upstarts!

I took a lowly Nebbiolo to a blind tasting... It was the wine world cup. It cost me £8 for the bottle. And if I buy it trade it would have been about 2/3rds that price. In terms of quality it is as good as the Gaja's and Giacosa's, in terms of terroir not quite there, but nearly perhaps the beauty of Piemonte being the Burgundy of Italy. Now what could this man do with a Santo Stefano or a Sperss?? It wouldn't happen because the big boys would be shown up for resting on their laurels. In many ways Mouton did this in Bordeaux years ago.

Well to cut a long story short, it this tasting my lowly wine beat 1997 Poujeaux into second place, and a 1989 Domaine de Chevalier was ranked in the middle of about 20 wines!! There were 14 wine geeks voting! I didn't think the wine would win, but it did. There is no reason why there aren't these gems in Bordeaux other than people not taking the time to search for them. I agree with Alex... I don't think Jim is being a snob, I think another problem is that the importers in any country try and bring in exciting wines and those that do are too small to get major recognition for their work.

There is a brilliant Japanese Manga, translated into French... Alex you may have seen or read some of it. I am reading the Japanese version. There is a point in the story where a customer of the protagonist only wants Firsts and Petrus and DRC for their shop (they are an importer) the customer is a luxury supermarket. Anyway, they show a number of wines blind against firsts. 85 GPL against 85 Lafite. 70 Chasse-Spleen against 70 Margaux, a d yes in reality you would have to try harder, but etc etc because it is only a story, but the little guys win! The moral here is that the label says more about the wine than the wine itself. Blind tastings are brilliant levellers for extracting true quality. I do like to taste a whole bottle over time, but from the point of view of large tastings. Blind is always the best way forward for me.

Jim, I feel the pain and know that there are both Tongue in cheek and serious points in all your posts, and I agree for the most part. But the cheap wines that Alex is talking about are not the same as the cheap wines that cross the pond! That is the fault of the importers. I'm sure a visit to Bordeaux or anyregion for that matter will throw up some gems for you. Why not try the very best 01 Madiran available? It is right up there with the best Bordeaux can offer. The question is, will you find that wine outside of France??

[JimHow]

I think it would be a good idea at the next BWE tasting to sneak in a few non-classified wines. I maintain that, if the tasting were blind and the wines carefully chosen, they would upset the apple cart, smash the pre-established border, defy the hierarchy, and set the cat among the pigeons (enough clichés for you?).

Sigh. Do you think I am lying, Alex?
Do you think I want cheap Bordeaux to be mediocre?
Don't you think I would love to find the next Lynch or Pontet of Duhart for $15?
Blind tastings, as we all know, produce all kinds of skewed results.
Heck, experts have sometimes not even been able to differentiate between white and red wines in blind tastings.
I would attribute zero significance to any such blind tasting results from a few minutes of swirling and sniffing in a party-like setting where we are drinking dozens of other high end wines.
Your Be-Proud-of-Your-School, Chamber-of-Commerce-like defense of the lesser wines of Bordeaux is charming and quaint!
I admire it.
But why can't you just accept that some others out there (i.e., me) don't share your passion for these modest efforts, without questioning, I don't know, our sanity, our motives, our honesty?
As I've said several times, I'll say again:
I am certain there are exception, but I just find very little compelling about the lower range wines of Bordeaux.
They can be pleasant. They can have good ripeness. They can be well-made.
But there are lots of wines in lots of regions, at lower prices, that meet those criteria.
It is okay, Alex.
Just because I'm not a big fan of lower end Bordeaux doesn't mean you or anyone else can't be passionate about them.
Some people like Burgundy better than Bordeaux.
Some people like Bordeaux better than Burgundy.
I was at a dinner a couple years back, with some non-wine-geeks, where I brought a bunch of my big name wines, like Lynch, Lalande, there was a Mouton in there, etc.
The favorite of the night was a $15 Penfolds.
I had 15 court clerks over at my house a few months back where I was again serving some top end Bordeaux.
The overwhelming crowd favorite was a '07 Les Cailloux Chateauneuf du Pape.
Different tastes for different people.
Some people like soccer, some people like baseball.
It is what makes the world go 'round.
It is okay!
I am happy for your happiness over your $15 Bordeaux wines!
I want you to be happy!
I don't not want you to like them!

Question: Do you think that the high foreclosure/bankruptcy/failure rate of lower end Brdeaux is more attributable to:

a) An unfortunate lack of realization in the world wine market of the true quality of these wines; or

b) Is more attributable to the actual quality level (or lack thereof) of the wines.

Don't fudge your answer. This is like an SAT question. You have to pick one. I'm sure there are other options that could be added in there: the economy, the impact of Parker, etc., etc.

But I'm just asking you this simple question, with two possible answers, concerning the high failure rates of these wines about which you are so passionate.

[oldwinenut]

It does seem that a lot of this discussion is about the fact that their are no great wines just great bottles. On any given night their are so many factors that effect how we "like" a wine. I can clearly remember some unheralded bottles that just blew me away. I am not saying that this is the rule. but if you discount all "lesser" Bordeaux's just because they are "lesser" then you miss the fact that without good there is no bad. Even if you drank only classified growth every night there would be a point where it might not give you the same level of enjoyment as drinking a range of wines. I understand that Jim is disillusioned about the pricing of Bordeaux but there are many factors which are driving pricing and most of them are out of our hands and no different than what is happening to other commodities worldwide.
Global demand for high end Bordeaux has increased significantly over the past several decades as these wines have become increasingly desired as a prestigious consumable, coveted as a collectible and accepted as an alternative investment vehicle by consumers, collectors, investors and wine experts. This trend has been driven by the tremendous rise in global wealth, the emergence of sophisticated wine consumers (initially in the United States, which is now the world’s largest wine
consumption market, and more recently in large emerging economies such as China, Russia and
India, among others), and the wide spread availability of wine education, culture and information over the Internet. I believe that upward price movements correlate most closely with rises in global gross domestic product and in the aggregate number of millionaires in the world. This trend is not going to stop, and in my opinion we are just seeing the beginning of the upward pricing pressure foe Bordeaux. The next leg is going to be wines which we never believed to be "collectible". If you believe that this is going to stop with Lynch Bages, think again because it is going to cascade down to wines like Potensac. As the rest of the world becomes a little more affluent, they will put price pressure on all kind of commodities, wine being just one of them. I don't like it either, but this is the reality of the world we live in.

[JimHow]

I don't disagree with what you say, oldwinenut.
Of course, there has been the occasional wine out there where I've said, Hey, this is good!
I'm amazed Lanessan still goes for $17 out there, I think that is a wine that is going to rise in price.
But in general, I just find these lesser Bordeauxs to be no more compelling than something in the same price range from Mondavi, or a $15 Penfolds, or a supermarket Malbec, or a Jadot Borgogne off the supermarket shelf, etc., etc., etc.
That's all I'm trying to say here, nothing more, nothing less.

[oldwinenut]

This spike in prices is not due to Parker or any one individual. Just the new price of admission. I don't like it. I did not like it when the '00 were released...first growth for $200 a bottle (I though that was to expensive. What a fool I was)! Now when we look back '00, '01' '02, '03 & '04 look reasonable if not out right inexpensive. The price of crude oil in 2000 was $27 per barrel and today that is over $100, down from it peek price. Is today's price of wine that much more? Maybe the price of Bordeaux was undervalued all these years?

[JimHow]

Maybe it has been somewhat undervalued, oldwinenut, especially relative to California. I recall paying $180 for the '95 and '96 Lafites.
I paid $100 and $180 for the 2002 and 2004 Lafites respectively.

[Michael-P]

BTW BD, I have found at least one $20 Bordeaux every other year or so (and still do) that rocks my world. Unfortunately they are those Alex wines, that are not distributed well, and I find myself ordering them direct from the winery in France, from sellers in the UK, etc. Kind of like driving all over the state.

Michael-P

[JimHow]

Life is too short, MichaelP, to be drinking $20 Bordeaux....

[JimHow]

(I'm pulling your chain....)

[Michael-P]

There's no such thing as $20 Bordeaux in Dubai (I think BD has called something like the sodom of the modern world?).

Michael-P

[stefan]

It is increasingly difficult to find a good $20 Bdx in the USA, Michael. Young people who don't now buy cases of the $17 Lanessan will be sorry in 10-15 years as this estate is too good to remain "undiscovered".