TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

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HarryKaris
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TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by HarryKaris »

This weekend, I attended an Old-Châteauneuf-du-Pape tasting in Bochum in Germany, together with 10 more Châteauneuf-du-Pape freaks (Michel Blanc, Jean-Marc Diffonty and Mark Fincham from Châteauneuf-du-Pape). Uwe Bende professionally organized the tasting, dinners and lunch in a very relaxed setting. Amazing how good most of the wines showed and many bottles with just below neck fill levels and just a few slightly cored bottles. Very interesting tasting.
Especially 1949 and 1967 vintages showed very well – followed by 1955. Cuvee du Vatican was the most consistent in high quality. Clos des Papes’s best vintage for me was the 1969. Several bottling from négociants showed very good.

***1947 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Blanc, Cave du Val Clos "La Belle du Roy"
Big surprise as this wine was still very much alive – expressive nose and strongly flavored palate – a darned good (tannic) structure (a sign that some red grapes must haven been added) – subtle fresh layered.

****1924 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Albert Bichot "Cuvee de Moines"
Amazingly fresh red color - soft and silky on the palate with some truffle – well balanced and taste still young and vital

1926 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Les Grandes Serres, Henri Geniest
Very dark brownish color - prune and some tar - oxidative

1926 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Salavert Freres, Tete de Cuvee
More oxidative with a high acidity – not very pleasant

**1928 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, A. Masson Dubois
Good color – meaty nose – after 10 minutes opened – good complexity

1929 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Auguste Bessac
Light brownish color – pretty much dead – later nice nose with nuts and caramel

**1930 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Les Caves des Apotres
Sweet layered – spicy – slightly corked otherwise good

1933 Chateauneuf-du-Pape
deppd red color – simple wine lacking expression and flavors

1933 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Auguste Bessac, Monopole Bessac
Uninpressive with secondary flavors

***1937 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Salavert Freres, Tete de Cuvee
Strong expressive nose – elegant Pinot palate – good freshness and spicy finish

**1937 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Fortia
Medium light color – attacking nose – good concentration – short finish

1942 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, (Importation 1946)
Dark chocolate and prune – mahonie and tar – oxidative port like thick

1943 Chateauneuf-du-Pape – no name
light and claoudy colore – cognac – exotic fruit – atypical wine

**1945 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, A. Verda, Orange
Good freshness and spicy palate, missing some concentration

***1947 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Vieux Telegraphe, Cuvee Special
Well balanced with subtle flavors and long finish – interesting wine

****1947 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Lucien Brunel (Les Cailloux)
More depth and good concentration – expressive and very tasty

***1949 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Chanut Freres
A bit flat nose – long sweet sexy finish

***1949 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Clos des Papes
Lacking some complexity, good concentration and nice sweet finish

****1949 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Clos de l'Oratoire des Papes
Impressive red color – tobacco, garriue and spices – well concentrated – very good

***1950 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Mommesin
Deep red color - dark tones, powerful, nuts and mocha – nice wine

1952 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Vignoble de Boilauzun
Oxidative nose – dried fruit and dry finish – no freshness

****1952 Chateauneuf-du-Pape la Gardine (magnum)
Complex and concentrated palate – long finish with figs and tobacco – very good

**1953 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Barriere Freres, Selection
well balanced with a fresh finish – Burgundy style

****1955 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Cuvee du Vatican
Deep red color – expressive and rich palate – very vital, lush and hedonistic

***1955 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau de la Gardine
Light color sweet and lush – spicy fruit tones – long finish

1955 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Reserve Cru de Garrigue
Oxidative nose but nice palate fading very fast

**1955 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Le Vieux Moulin, Henri Jourdan, Caves Reflets
A bit medicinal nose – truffle and tobacco – well structured and fresh finish - good

**1955 Châteauneuf-du-Pape Feyten Cuvee Reserve
Coffee and mocha – good complexity and finish – nice

1957 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Henri Jourdan, Caves Reflets
Oxidative with dried fruit - unimpressive

1959 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Hugues vins la Valette
Rich palate and subtle flavors – not complex but well drinkable

***1959 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Lapalus
Dark nose with chocolate and truffle – walnut and caramel – long finish –very nice

**1959 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Mont-Redon
Spicy and good (tannin) structure – fresh nice finish

**1959 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Vermorel
Good intensity – flat mid palate but sexy and rather long finish

1961 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau Cabrieres
High acidity and sharp tones – lacking expression – thin finish

***1961 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau des Fines Roches
Complex flavors palette – sweet onset – long complex finish

1961 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau de Maucoil
Very deep brown dark colored - chocolate and tobacco - oxidative

**1964 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau la Nerte Grand Cru
Lush sweet onset – not complex but enjoyable spicy finish

***1964 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Domaine Jean Deydier "Les Clefs d'Or"
Well structured – more traditional, spicy and tannic with good freshness

***1965 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Clos des Papes
Expressive but not very complex, nice spicy flavors and rather high acidity

***1966 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Jean Pierre Brotte
Sweet nose, very spicy well balanced – not complex but very nice

1966 Chateauneuf-du-Pape "Le Pere Caboche" Theophile Boisson
High acidity, lacking flavors, sharp and spicy finish

1966 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Reserve du Vatican
Very deep brown reddish – petrol, tar and walnut - oxidative

**1966 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Domaine Mont Redon
Good structure with dark dried fruit – richly flavored palate a but dry finish

****1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Vieux Telegraphe
Very sweet onset – sexy palate very good concentration and long spicy finish

1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Domaine de Nalys
Slightly corked although still drinkable with a nice spiciness and licorice.

***1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Cellier de Princes
Truffle nose – garrigue and nutty multiple layered, fresh and good concentration

1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Reserve Speciale Edouard Darmion, Paul Jean
Oxidative nose – chocolate, tar and mocha – atypical wine

****1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Cuvee de Vatican
Very rich palate with creamy licorice – long finish – darned good wine

***1967 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chateau de Fines Roches
Garigue nose, good concentration but dominating herbal – nice finish

1969 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Chante le Vent, Marc Reynaud
Tannic and dry – spicy palate with truffle and cinnamon – dry finish

1969 Chateauneuf-du-Pape "La Cabanne" Armand Ferulla
Very sharp attacking – unimpressive

1969 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Cellier des Princes
Thin and high acidity – lacking flavors and intensity

****1969 Chateauneuf-du-Pape Clos des Papes
Light color – very rich and expressive palate – complex and long finish - superb
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DavidG
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

WOW! Shades of Francois - I've never had CdP that old, except for a '61 Les Cedres that lived up to its name, being very woody. I don't think these wines show up much, even in auctions. Very interesting to see that many of them can live a much longer life than we usually ascribe to them. Sounds like the few bottles of Ch de la Gardine performed well once again.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by Jay Winton »

also WOW!
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by stefan »

That is an amazing line up of old CdP, Harry! Congratulations!

stefan
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

I ported Jim's note over from Ian's thread on '98 VT...
JimHow wrote:My reading of Harry's notes is that the results are a mixed bag. A lot of the wines don't seem to have stood up to a half century of aging, with several examples of oxidation. Are nuttiness and caramelization considered appealing attributes?

How would you characterize your tasting overall, Harry? It seems clear that they don't have quite the ageworthiness of Bordeaux.... That's not necessarily a horrible thing, it just seems to be a fact of life. Then again, what wine region does have the ageworthiness of Bordeaux?

Ian, I loved the 2006 Vieux Telegraphe, although I agree it is overpriced at $65. It is good to have some diversity in the cellar though, they can't all be '96 Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages.
The common wisdom is that, unlike Bordeaux, Chateauneuf is not supposed to live forever. Ten to twenty years is supposed to be tops, even for the best producers, with occasional exceptions like Beaucastel in certain years. To me, Harry's notes show that there are significant exceptions to this rule. I'm not sure what all the modern changes in winemaking, creation of special cuvees, etc., in recent years will do to this paradigm...
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by HarryKaris »

Thanks David.
I will give you some points that are important and maybe show new aspects:

- regarding the more or less oxidative conditions I think its important that, unlike Bordeaux and Burgundy wines at that oxidative level, I had many old, mainly Bordeaux wines in the past that showed way more astringency, bitterness, sharp sensations and a 'thin' palate - these CdP-wines have better palate acceptance, not just for me but I think according to all attendees - the grape variety (mainly Grenache especially for the pre-60's) and the relative higher alcohol % (wines are sweeter) be responsible for this
- you have to realize that these days there wasn't (or at a very limited level) such thing as temperature control - causing high fermentation temperatures - and grapes selections (mix of ripe and unripe) or even separate vinification - as Chris remarks, some wines were already oxidized prior to bottling
- grapes at that time were not destemmed (could be a factor that benefits aging potential)
- most of the wines these days were produced by negociants - many located in Burgundy (although I cannot proof wines have been blended with other varieties than just allowed CdP's
- most of the wine was transported (pre-60s) in small used barrels that gave the wine better aging potential
- hygiene level at that time was very low and some wines were already infected or must have flaws right after bottling
- taking into account and project all these issues on the total number of bottles we tasted I think that the result was very good - very remarkable was that just a few were corked

CdP-Harry
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by JimHow »

Harry, it sounds like the wines of Chateauneuf-du-Pape are going to develop in the next fifty years quite significantly differently than they have in the past fifty years. I realize that is a fact in most wine regions of the world. Is Chateauneuf-du-Pape experiencing anything similar to the debate and angst over "modernization" and "internationalization" and "Parkerization" that we are seeing in Bordeaux?

Are there modern winemaking techniques in Chateuneuf-du-Pape that compare/differ to what is going on in Bordeaux? Are they generating the same levels of controversy/discussion that they have about Bordeaux wines? Are there concerns that the winemakers in Chateauneuf-du-Pape are tinkering with nature in producing their final results? In other words, are they having the same debates in Chateauneuf-du-Pape about the wine-making process as they are in Bordeaux? I'm sure there are cleaner cellars, and more scientific information available to achieve the highest quality grapes, etc. I'm talking more about whether there are intentional efforts being made to produce wines more appealing to the Parker or American (or Asian, or whatever) palate, like we see being alleged in Bordeaux. To what extent is that going on, if at all?
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

The short answer is yes, Jim. Producers in CnDP can be split into modernists and traditionalists, but even there the lines can be blurred, with some utilizing some but not all of the tricks, resulting in wines that are somewhere in between, and other producers keeping one foot in each camp with different cuvees. I tend to look at it as more of a spectrum than a dichotomy, but that might just be my perception of things. I'm sure Harry can add more details.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

OK, I thought I had another post evaporate, but this time I realized what I did wrong:

I composed in the "Quick Reply" box, and then hit "Post Reply" above the box instead of "Submit" below the box.

This took me to the full "Post Reply" screen, erasing what I had written in the "Quick Reply" box in the process.

No more mystery, I just have to remember to pay attention to the "Submit" button.

Yeah, it's a slow day in the office. About 3/4 of my patients cancelled because of the snow.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by JimHow »

It seems to me-- and I don't subscribe to Wine Spectator anymore, so I'm very uninformed on this and am going just on my own observations-- that Burgundy, for example, has not encountered, for the most part, the controversies of over-extraction, and overuse of oak, and higher alcohol levels, and all of the other issues that we've been reading about and experiencing with the wines of Bordeaux. In Burgundy it seems to be more about restraint, and expression of terroir, and judicious use of wood, etc. Am I misreading this? Do Burgundy and Chateauneuf-du-Pape have their Bernard Magrezes, and Gerard Perses, and Michel Rollands? What are the Pavies and Monbousquets of Chateauneuf-du-Pape and Burgundy?
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by JimHow »

Yes i realize it is rough for you guys down there, David, when you get a half inch or so. Another fifteen inches up here, this is getting really tiring.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

There is quite a bit of variability in oak usage between Burgundy producers, and you see threads where the Burgheads debate which wines are over-oaked. There was one recently over on the Squires board.

I am also far from an expert on Burgundy, but I think that several of the "modern" techniques that get criticized in Bordeaux, like extended cold soaks/maceration, found their way to Bordeaux from Burgundy. It's a matter of degree and what is appropriate where, and, I guess, who's judging what's appropriate.

I think they said 6 inches today, which is more than we've had all winter. We do have a pretty good road maintenance system, but people get freaked out by even a little snow because they are just not used to it. Saw 4 cars spun out by the side of the road on my 10-mile drive to work this AM. There are runs on the grocery stores for toilet paper and bread and milk every time they predict more than an inch or two, it's actually kind of funny. Worst storm I can ever remember, here or anywhere else I've lived (including Michigan, Albany, and Milwaukee), we had about 2 feet officially, though I measured 36 inches in our front yard without drifting, here in Baltimore in '95 or '96. It took 3 days to plow the tertiary neighborhood roads. Even worse than the big one in '78 that shut down NYC (I was in Albany). Other than that, never been stuck for more than about 18 hours. What's worse is when we get a little snow, it starts to melt, then it freezes overnight and we have glare ice the next morning for rush hour. Temps are just about right for that to happen around here. Harder to drive on that than on packed snow.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by JimHow »

The worst two for me were the Blizzard of '78 in Mass. and the Ice Storm of '98 in Maine.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by stefan »

The cold is really a pain. Here it was so bad yesterday that we didn't go to the golf course until after 2 and it got too dark to finish our round.

stefan, rubbing it in
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by HarryKaris »

Jim, talking to many (almost all??) winemakers in CdP, almost all have one goal in common : producing wines with a better and more solid 'fruit-core' . Regardless the style, this counts for Pegau as well for Beaucastel, Charvin, Beaurenard and many many others.

Although the use of oak (mainly used old barrels) gained over the past 10 years it is still very much limited (of course there are exceptions). The Grenache rarely sees any oak from small barrels or demi-muids (600L) and is aged in concrete, steel or 50-100 Hl sized foudres (a kind of oval wooden casks - most are coming from the beer industry in Germany).
Barrel aging is limited for the Mouvèdre and Syrah - I personally think this is a good choice and brings more structure and complexity and in a blend with the fresh Grenache can be a perfect marriage.

The main difference with Bordeaux is that all (with exception of a handful) are family run businesses. Of course they need and want to sell as much they can but behind the business man there is the fieldworker and the winemaker - all in one. Especially the young generation impressed me very much. They are very close with each other (you cannot say that of the older generations), open minded and they are all without one exception passionate, respect the terroir and are willing and prefer to work in the vineyards and wine cellars. Although well educated in marketing none of them I know would give up winemaking and becoming manager.
Okay I better stop.......need to do some more work....indeed "writing"....
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by Australi »

I have a bottle of SALAVERT 1966 Reserve-des-Papes CHATEAUNEUF-DU-PAPE (TETE DE CUVEE) for sale :D
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Harry C.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by Harry C. »

How many were fakes? :shock:
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by Carlos Delpin »

Harry, out of curiosity, what was the provenance of the wines? Thanks for sharing.
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Re: TN:Chateauneuf-du-Pape Tasting 1924-1969 in Germany

Post by DavidG »

This is a 5-year-old thread that was bumped up by Australi who is apparently trying to sell a bottle of wine. Harry hasn't been around for a while. Wish he were...
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