Whither 2008?

[Bacchus]

Increasingly I find myself concerned about 2008. Early enthusiasm for the vintage is continually being rolled back. We all know that the Forever Nameless has retreated from his early high scores for the vintage. Then Chris Kissack backed off many of his original scores, even of many of the higher profile wines. For example, he lowered his rating of Pontet Canet from 17.5-18.5+ to 16-17+?; Pichon Lalande from 17.5-18.5+ to 15.5-16.5+; and Lynch Bages from 15.5-16.5+ to 15-16+?. And now in a retrospective of the vintage, Decanter magazine re-tasted 51 wines from the Medoc. Not a single wine, in their view, merits their highest rating of 5 stars (it should be noted that no firsts were included in this reassessment). The three highest rated wines turn out to be Chx. Dauzac, Pichon Baron, and Palmer, all receiving 4 stars. As a whole the wines are described as "insubstantial" and "lacking intensity," without "freshness and charm." BWE favourites like du Tertre and Cantemerle merit only 2 stars out of 5 stars. Where I come from that's an unambiguous failing grade! Maybe I won't be buying so many after all, saving my pennies for the 09s, even if it means buying fewer bottles.

[Chateau Vin]

I don't want to start war of words, but that's the problem I have with Kissack. Granted, after you do bottle taste, you revise your scores, but to the extent and variation of what Kissack puts out? It is purely my personal opinion that his ratings are off-charts compared to mine and also those of many others in the industry. He also lacks consistency IMO.

Regarding Decanter, I don't know how it works, but I think Chateaus have to submit to Decanter for tasting and some top growths do not even bother to send them the samples...

Anyways, Pomerol and St Julien are the best in 2008 according to vintage reports.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I have reviewed numerous 08s here in recent weeks.
I do not agree with the comments about it "withering".
AS I have noted, 08 is NOT a great vintage, but based on exprience, I say it is a very good to excellent vintage in St Emilion, Pomerol and St Julien.
I don't think the wines of Margaux seem to have performed that well and also not sure about Pessac/Graves (only tied a few from there).

2008 is not the massive, tannic vintage like 2005 nor the fruit bomb vintage either.
So it is medium bodied and will provide pleasure for medium term drinking (for most wines of course).

In terms of vintages, it is better than 2006 for example and well ahead of 07.
I think 2004 and 2008 are worth buying and 04 seems to be under-rated.

So I've put together a short summary of the vintages from 2000:

2000 - outstanding, well balanced wines on both banks
2001 - variable. Good to very good overall but many left bank wines in particular are lacking fruit intensity and too tannic.
2002 - very good, well balanced left bank wines, some a bit light, average on the right bank, with angular wines
2003 - Okay, some great winesw but I hate this vintage overall. Right bank and lesser areas a disaster. Best in central/north Medoc
2004 - Well balanced, good acidity and fruit. Few outstanding wines though. Under-rated and quite consistent
2005 - massive, tanic wines for long ageing. Generally consistent but some may be too tannic.
2006 - Medium bodied, red fruited, well balanced but can be variable and were over-priced\
2007 - Lighter vintage. Some well balnced wines but also many dilute, boring wines. Choose carefully
2008 - Very good overall. Well balanced, medium bodied, soft tannns. Medium term drinking. St emilion, Pomerol and St Julien are best
2009 - Only tried a few lesser wines so far which have had lots of fruit and ripe tannins.

[Nicklasss]

What is strange with 2008, is that even with the initial ''high review from the critics'', the wines came out ''en primeur'' at lower prices than 2005-2006-2007-2009-2010 vintages.

But at the same time, 2008 and early 2009 were the times when ''economical crisis'' was in everybody's mouth.

So doing a quick analysis is easy : Bordeaux Cru Classés/Best wines prices are not fixed on the wine quality anymore, but more linked with economical/financial health of the World. The best example are 2006 (almost same prices as 2005) and 2007 (a little down from 2006 in price, but lower quality wines than 2006 or 2008).

Nic

[Bacchus]

I don't mean to start a war or words either, ChVin -- just reporting on what others are saying about 08 and seeing what the members of this board think about these "professional" judgments.
I didn't write "wither," Claudius, but "whither." Mind you, they make a pretty good pun.
Decanter seems particularly disappointed with Pauillac, a sentiment that seems shared by Kissack as suggested when he backs off so many of his scores of such great Pauillac chateaux as Lynch-Bages, PLL, and Pontet Canet. Their scores for other important Pauillac houses, such as GPL, also suggests their shared disappointment with the region. But Kissack also backs off earlier scores of chateaux outside Pauillac. He even lowers his score of Saint-Pierre!
I've bought a few 08s, notably Haut Bailly and DomChevalier (is it significant that they're both from Grave?). I'm also considering picking up some Pichon Baron, one of the few Pauillac to come off unscathed (not counting firsts, of course, but I don't buy them anyways). If I limit my 08 purchases, I'll be able to buy more 09s, which, as we all know, is the vintage of the century.

[Claudius2]

Bacchus
Relax my boy.
The 2008 vintage to me is still a better year on the right bank.
I have not bought ANY winers from Pauillac, Margaux opr St Estephe.
I have bought mainly from St Emilion, Pomerol, St Julien, with a few Huat Medic wines (La Lagune and Sociando Mallet - two old favourites).

Franly, I tend to avoid the bullshit about the great vintages at the best times, though the few 09s that are hitting the market here are showing a lot of dense fruit.
But sometimes I just want a medium bodied, food friendly wine rather than a tannic monster or fruit bomb.
So I actually like 08 and having been to two 08 tastingss in recent weeks (and a few earlier this year) I think it is a very good vintage at least.

Don;t just limit nyourself to the supposedly great vintages - there is a lot on offer in the other vintages as well.
cheers
Mark

[Bacchus]

I'm cool, Claudius. Just looking for something to chat about I guess. And I agree about sourcing a variety of vintages. There are times I want a fuller bodied wine, but there are also times I prefer something less tarted up. I have plenty of 04s -- a vintage I like a lot -- and even some 06s, to balance out my 05s and 00s. I guess I'm more of a Left Bank sort of person, so didn't want to hear that 08 was better on the other side of the river. I'll probably give LPoyferre a try since it's getting good reviews from all sources, professionals and real drinkers alike, and it's about as affordable as it'll ever be. I'll probably give St Pierre a go too, even if Mr. Kissack has downgraded it a tad -- what does he know?

[chris kissack]

I'm employing classic work-avoidance behaviour and browsing a few wine forums on a Friday afternoon. Can't help chipping in on this one.

First of all, I'm really happy to discuss my impression of the wines in more detail. It's good to know someone has read my notes - even if you disagree with them! I'm well aware that there is a lot of expertise on this forum, and others, and believe the age of top-down flow of wine information is dead. Debate and discussion on forums like this is where it's at; I would start my own, but I don't think I could handle the moderation duties (if anyone visited, that is! ).

Sorry that you find my notes lack consistency Chateau Vin; I guess my notes aren't for you. Personally I'm amazed how often my opinions of the wines do match up with my notes and even the scores on the barrel samples (assuming this is what you are referring to when you write consistency), but yes there are times when they seem quite different. But in each case I describe the wine as I find it. Some of the variation might be explained by difference between an opinion on early unblended barrel samples, some by the sample/bottle poured on the day, and - here's something you won't find many professional (note - I'm not trying to put myself in that bracket - surely I would have to earn something to be "professional"!) critics writing - some by my own performance. Sometimes the wines taste quite different to how I remember the barrel samples and even I can see that it might not be a reflective sample - I think this is very true of Pontet-Canet 2008, which is one wine highlighted by Bacchus. The in-bottle sample was the third taste of this wines for me, and the first two times from barrel were superb, but the third was quite irregular. Simply saying I've backed off on the scores without even referring to the note is only half the story for me:

"Chateau Pontet-Canet 2008: An interesting aromatic layer of fruit here, very highly polished, aromatic, red-black summer fruits, almost high-toned in its definition. Certainly showing a little element of soot like a few other wines. The start on the palate is bold and reveals little, giving a firm shell of structure with little fruit, slowly relaxing and allowing the tannins out early in the midpalate. The texture of the wine struggles to manage with the level of tannin here which dominates the palate in a very forceful manner. It is certainly a wine apart within the appellation, but for me it is showing a rather over-extracted and over-worked character here, without the fruit or texture to match in this difficult vintage. That's surprising as I have tasted this twice as a barrel sample when it showed much better than this. I think caution is required here; I will leave a note of uncertainty in my score and I will reassess in the future. 16-17+?/20"

For me, that's a valid opinion of the wine. I guess you can regard it as inconsistent, but I would argue that wines don't always show consistently. Interestingly, of the three wines highlighted by Bacchus, all three were "question-marked" and I don't think they can be taken as a backing-off on the vintage. There's a ten-page report on my site from the primeurs, and a five-page report from the in-bottle UGC tasting, on my site. There's plenty more detail and nuance in there than these three notes suggest.

I liked the 2008 vintage from the outset, although I've always maintained it is not a "great" vintage in the way 2009 and 2010 might be considered. My jaw dropped when I read of people (can't remember where, sorry!) referring to 2008-2009-2010 as a "triumvirate" of great vintages. It is a really convincing right bank vintage though - this is what I wrote after the primeurs:

"The right bank has perhaps yielded more consistent success than the left bank, but that is not to say the Médoc is devoid of good wines. Indeed, a handful are thrilling. But on the right bank there are breathtaking wines, from Cheval-Blanc and Ausone, through Vieux Chateau Certan and Conseillante, through to less exalted names such as Beauregard and Clos Fourtet. The wines possess rich fruit, good acidity and, in the best examples, vibrant aromatics too. As for the left bank there is great success here too...in places. But whereas the right bank wines have darker fruits, richness, depth and in some cases considerable power, on the left bank we have more vibrancy, more red fruit character, and firmer acidities."

These are opinions I've maintained through to the tastings at two years. Yes a few left bank wines moved down a bit. A handful also moved up a bit. I don't think that is anything out of the ordinary when shifting from primeurs assessment of barrel samples to in-bottle wines though.

I agree with what others have said regarding left bank communes as well - I think St Julien tops the lot, and Margaux was a huge disappointment, beyond Palmer (including a lovely Alter Ego) and Margaux itself of course. Pauillac I think I've already covered above, and as has already been highlighted by Bacchus/Chateau Vin I was less impressed by some in-bottle wines.

Anyway, none of this is intended to be a "war of words" just thought it would be good contribute as I was cited in the discussion.

Best wishes

[Houndsong]

People, I will conclusively and categorically declaim on whither this vintage: whether it is withering, waddling, wobbling, or anything like that, later today when I sample the 2008 Langoa Barton. Yes, a wine that HWSRN called one of the most backward wines of the vintage and one of the most backward of Anthony Barton's making - ever - when tasted en primeur should make the perfect marker for putting to rest, once and for all, and for all time, ever and always, any debate, discussion, dissent, thoughts, musings, misgivings, etc., etc., etc. on this vintage: across all communes, all classifications, and all levels. For all time. There will be no retreat, reevaluation, retrospective, or any of that later nonsense.

[Bacchus]

Wow, Hound! I, for one, eagerly await the definitive opinion on 2008.
I was wondering, Chris, if you might re-taste that cast of miscreant Pauillacs at some time? I noticed that you tasted all the ones I mentioned in my earlier posting last fall. Is it possible that since they were all the same age and from the same region when you tasted them, that they had all slipped into a dormant or funky period at about the same time, and that we just need to wait for them to come to life? Wines of that caliber and reputation certainly deserve a second tasting, n'est-ce pas?

[chris kissack]

Hi Bacchus

It's very likely that I will be able to taste all three - most if not all of the Pauillacs in fact - in November 2012 at the Institute of Masters of Wine annual Bordeaux tasting, which next year will feature the 2008 vintage. It's possible I might see them before then, but by no means certain.

Best wishes

[Bacchus]

Sounds great, Chris. I look forward to reading whatever you find. Does that mean I have to wait another year before deciding on Pauillac '08?

[chris kissack]

I doubt you will do that Bacchus. Besides, if it has to be Pauillac and nothing else, you can't go wrong with Pichon-Baron in 2008, superb wine. Just my opinion, of course.

[Claudius2]

Chris
Your views are actually quite similar to mine.
I have consistently argued that 08 is very good, and not a great vintage.
I've done tastings on the left and right bank and I re-tasted every wine at least once.

The right bank did very well I beleive and the wines I have tried have been quite consistent. The alcohol levels worry me a bit though.
They are ripe, medium bodied, not overly tannic adn for medium term ageing.

The left bank wines are good in St Julien and the Leovilles are very good as are Lagrange, Ducru, even GL.
The other areas seem a bit inconsistnet and I cannot easily define the style.
The wines that offer medium body, ripe fruit and balance of the structural elements are best.
A few I've tried were not balanced and I wonder if they will improve.

Having been in France earlier this year, the lesser Bordeaux regions seem to have done reasonably well - the Cotes areas around St Emilion were pleasant and even some Bordeaux Superiors were pleasant, well balanced wines.

Also note that these days, I live in SIngapore and the bloody hot weather here suits the right bank wines better.
And I think it will take me some time to drink the 08s anyway as the Aussie dollar was very favourable ($US1.10 and E0.80) and I bought quite a lot.
Yet I expect to drink them before 05.

Overall, I think the 11 years 2000 to 2010 have been very good for the Bordelaise.
Surely this is one of the best periods ever for Bordeaux.
Only 07 is a poor vintage in my mind though I really can't handle 03 (yes, I know, some love it but not me).

Recent expereinces with 02, 04 and even 06 have been quite positive as well.

[Bacchus]

I hate to refer to other boards, but since we've got the 08 discussion on the go, and I'm in the process of making a few buying decisions, I couldn't help but look around to see what others are saying. For some very different takes on 08, including comments from the esteemed John Gilman (which I think Claudius and other fans will appreciate,), go here:
http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... 08#p717087
The thread makes for some fun reading, with a few very funny lines, although it might just increase your confusion levels if you're trying to make buying decisions as I am.

[JonoB]

Is it not the case that cask samples are more open and a just bottled sample will show worse as it starts to shut down? Are we not being impatient? These 08s will have their day in the sun like any vintage! The question is when, just because they are not big and bold and won't last 100 years doesn't mean that they won't be exciting wines when their time has come.

Just my 2 centimes!

[Claudius2]

Bloody hell.
Bacchus I read the posts and they are schizophrenic.
Some loved one wine (eg, Gruaud LArose) others hated it.
Some reckon the right bank are weak, some it is acidic, some woody, well whatever.
I ignore what others think when I taste wines as I know this can bias you.
I did know RP points but I don't concur with his palate anyway.

Maybe time will tell but I htink 08 is an attractive vintage for medium term drinking.

[Bacchus]

I agree, Claudius, that's got to be one of the weirdest threads I've ever read. And while I don't post on Wineberserkers, I recognize a lot of the names and they're experienced tasters! What's weird isn't that some like a wine and others don't (that would be normal), but that they can't even agree on which wines are thin or thick, acidic or balanced, fruity or green! Is 08 such a chameleon vintage? In the end I'll probably buy a lot of single bottles before deciding which I'll add to the cellar in any numbers.

[Claudius2]

Well the wines I have tasted are none of those descriptions.
They are medium weight, not think nor thin, with balanced tannins and acid and little evidence of under-ripe characters or excess tannins.
And that is why I like the style.

[Bacchus]

Well that's exactly how I felt about DomChev, the only 08 I've tasted so far. Balanced, and nicely so on my palate. That also seems to be John Gilman's position, and he's known for preferring a more traditional claret over the modern styles.

[Houndsong]

Well the wines I have tasted are none of those descriptions.
They are medium weight, not think nor thin, with balanced tannins and acid and little evidence of under-ripe characters or excess tannins.
And that is why I like the style.

This describes the 08 Langoa pretty well, although I thought it was pretty larged-scaled with good density with some wood to absorb.

[DavidG]

Interesting diversity of opinions. It's easy to understand differences between early barrel notes in the spring after the vintage where the blend might not even be finalized and in-the-bottle evaluations. But this group seems to be all over the board with the in-the-bottle notes.

I held off on buying (with the exception of a case of Gruaud that Jim and I split), figuring there would be an opportunity to try and buy as the wines arrived. Kind of glad I held off. If prices are reasonable and the wines offer the promise of decent drinking without requiring a lot of cellaring, I may dip a toe back in.

[JimHow]

Decanter has a bizarre obsession with Chateau Dauzac.
Personally, I have found the 2008s I've had to have an appealing 2002Lness about them.

[Claudius2]

Jim
I think I agree though 2008 is much better on the right bank and the left bank wines in 08 are maybe a bit bigger and with less acid.
I think what stands out with 02 left bank wines in tastings in the balance and acidity and they are starting to drink now.
I have started opening some 02s in hot humid Singpaore and the freshness of the wines make them very drinkable (really fat, sweeter styles are just awful here - maybe why I am not a fan of 03).

[JimHow]

What is your assessment of 2009, Claudius?
I've been obsessing over that vintage, even though I haven't had a single taste yet.

[Claudius2]

Jim
I have only tried a few lesser wines inlcuding a few second wines of medoc growths.
My take based on such wines is very promising as even second wines are rich and ripe, with balanced tannins and acidity.
I imagine that the top wines will take a long time to be fully mature and will offer dense fruit and good balance.
I see it as similar to 1989 or 1990 but maybe with slightly firmer tannins.

[JimHow]

Just what I want to hear about 2009.
I'll be drinking this vintage in my 70s and 80s!
And the prices, while expensive, seem to be 60-70% of the 2010s.

[Jackdaw Dawson]

Tasted through a bunch of 2008s and 2009s last week at an in-store tasting at Zachys. 2008 winners: Clos Fourtet (more balance than the 2009), Pape Clement, Pichon Baron, La Gaffeliere, and Cheval Blanc. Doubt, however, whether the Cheval Blanc is really worth the price of entry.

The 2009s: Wow. Exciting, but slightly ripe for my taste. Racy with great concentration and good acidity (believe it or not!!). Still quite early, but I think of it as a cross between 1990 and 1978. 2009 Pape Clement and Pichon Baron will be epic. The tannins are ripe and fine. I will be posting an article about my thoughts on the tasting tomorrow.

Best,

John

The Sonoma Wine Journal
www.dawsonwine.com

[Claudius2]

Jim
The 2010s were either the same price or slightly more here in Signapore.
Did the greenback take a beating??
There were a few wines that increased prices 20% or so but I avoided them in protest.

So there would seem to be no logic in buying 2010s in Singpaore on that basis.
The wine market is nuts.

[Tom In DC]

I'm not in the business, but I'm wondering whether some of the uptick in price in the US market is due to Diageo (Chateau & Estates) ceasing to import Bordeaux. Bordeaux prices in the US always seemed to have thinner margins than other regions, presumably because the various tiers made up the difference in volume and collecting the money in advance on en primeur sales. Now that the closeouts from C&E have worked their way out of the pipeline, perhaps the remaining players are going for a more typical markup to reflect having to do more work than simply placing orders with C&E?

As I said, I'm just guessing here...

[Michael-P]

I haven't had any 08s and only bought one case of Providence (based on various critics early views).

I may need to look into a few more with QPR.

Michael-P