Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

What do you guys think of premier cru? How are they? Anybody has any feedback to give about their reliability and business?

Thanks,

PC is definitely reliable and has perfect storage. Be aware 0f the meaning of pre-arrival: pay now and probably get the wines mañana (i.e., at some indeterminate time in the future). When they don't come through, which nowadays is rare, they will give you a good deal on substitutes or, if the wine is available somewhere, take the loss by buying it after market. Also, when a wine on pre-arrival comes in, they do not tell you.

This quirkiness on pre-arrival items bothers some people, but not me. I like the free storage.

The problem is that a store that goes under can seem "definitely reliable" until it's not... I thought Sam's was solid/reliable until they went under -- I got my last futures out of them just in time, but only because I relentlessly called and emailed them (literally dozens of times) for 6 months once a few rumors started. I used to buy from Carolina Wine Company too, and luckily didn't have any outstanding orders when they went under. I'm not saying this will happen to PC, but there are countless threads on other bulletin boards about how long PC takes to deliver futures (some buyers are still waiting for their '05s) and quite a few folks have expressed concerns about PC's business model given that they often deliver literally years after other stores. I would still buy in-stock items without hestitation from PC, but not futures.

"perfect storage" has always been my question. Maybe when they actually get their hands on the wine, but what is happening to the wine that 3+ years it takes some futures to come in? Floating in less than stellar warehouses in France is my bet. I do not buy futures from them anymore after the 2005 Bordeaux futures and will only consider them IF they are physicially in possession.

Two thumbs down from me on Premier Cru, Chateau Vin....

JimHow wrote:Two thumbs down from me on Premier Cru, Chateau Vin....

That was really strong Jim. They are that bad hah?

Hey, there are people here and elsewhere who swear by PC. It used to be my favorite place to buy wine. But I've just never understood why they take money from people and often make them wait 5 years or more for delivery of the wines. If they don't have a right to the wines when they take your order, then that is dishonest (or worse) to me, and they shouldn't be doing it. If they do have an ownership interest in the wines, then why does it take more than one hot or cold shipping season to take delivery of the wines and in turn ship them to customers promptly? It seems sketchy to me. Others are less troubled by the practice. Myself, I don't buy from Premier Cru anymore.

First, I had one purchase out of a hundred that they couldn't delivered and they compensated more than fairly for that purchase.

Next, I think you should separate the in store sales of wine and the"futures" wine sales. I have never had a problem with an in-strore sale. Their shipments were prompt, prices excellent and I can't praise them enough. Next the futures sales. This seems to be the source of the complaints. I have been buying futures for PC since 2000. The futures are slow to ship. At the old prices, the delay never bothered me. I don't buy futures from anyone anymore.

Many on this board vigorously complain about the delayed delivery. Again, I don't now anyone who said they were cheated. Like me, I know some were contacted and told that the wine could not be procured. Though they were offered other wine at discount, I can see why some are upset. Nevertheless, to accuse PC of dishonesty is like saying all of you are potential murders. There is nothing in its history that indicates dishonesty.

The easiest way to avoid multi year anxiety is to just buy in stock items.

Right now my oldest open order from PC goes back only to May 2010, but then I don't buy futures from them.

There are two types of futures: en primeurs which are futures of unreleased wine and "on order" which are aftermarket wines.

I haven't had any experience with en primeurs, but with aftermarket wines, I have purchased many which were not in stock but were or order. There has only been once where they did not come through on those orders. As with any retailer that holds wine, I make sure I ship periodically so I have no more than a few cases in storage at the retailer. I think this is prudent regardless of the history of the retailer. But I have purchased and received some fantastic wines from Premier Cru, esp. older stuff. All older wines are a crap shoot, and as long as you don't spend too much on a single bottle, I think they are a great retailer.

We had a discussion here in the past about the practice of marketing wines en futuro that the seller has no claim to but accepts the buyers money and "sources" the wines at a later date. I have no idea if PC does that. But I know Josh and others have said this practice exists. If a seller is doing that-- if they are marketing the sale of a particular wine and accept a buyer's money on the hope or expectation that they will be able to "source" it at a later date -- and if the seller, whether PC or anyone else, is not making that arrangement clear to the buyer up front -- then, to me, that is dishonest. I'm sorry, Bill, that is just my opinion. And if the retailer has an actual ownership interest in the wine, whether it is sitting in France, or London, or Chicago, or China, or anyplace else -- what would be ANY possible straightfaced argument for waiting five years to take the 20 minutes or so that would be required to arrange to have those wines shipped in a prompt manner? I know of no other retailer that seems to have delays of more than a few months in the shipment of the wines (well, there was Rare, LLC, of course). PC failed to ship me six bottles of 1998 La Fleur Petrus after I waited like an extra year for delivery. After that experience, I never ordered futures from PC again. There are others on other sites who have gotten the rungaround from PC trying to get answers on wines that they ordered years previously. Again, for some, this has not been an issue. For me, it is a practice that has cost PC tens of thousands of dollars of my business. To this day, even after all the discussions of PC that we have had here and on other sites, I still have never heard an explanation why wines have to sit 5 years someplace before shipment. Is it a cash flow problem? Did they take all this money to fund their expansion? Whatever the reason, I don't know of ANY retailer who takes so long to fill futures orders, and, especially now that PC prices are more in line with those elsewhere, I have other options out there (New Hampshire, PJs and the other NY stores, etc.), so that I don't need to give PC my business.

Premier Cru's model is definitely unique. It used to work very well, but they fumbled the ball on their 2005 Bordeaux Futures campaign. The long delay that many experienced (I did get all of my 2005 futures from them, but it was a big pain) and the nerves engendered by the 2008 economic meltdown (and Sam's et al. going under) made many uncomfortable with PC's model.

I limited my exposure to them after all that, but I did order some 2009 futures from them (a fraction of my 2005 orders). If you can't resist, that would be my recommendation.

Their prices aren't as amazing as they used to be, but they often have the best/lowest offerings around (usually via their "weekend sales" emails). In December, I picked up 3 bottles of the 2010 d'Issan for ~$45 (something like 50% off). A great deal, even if it takes 5 years to be delivered.

JimHow wrote: I still have never heard an explanation why wines have to sit 5 years someplace before shipment.

It takes Hardy a while to source the empty bottles, concoct just the right mix, and manufacture the labels, corks and capsules.

Seriously, I see both sides of this debate. I've bought from them with eyes wide open. Still waiting on a couple of '05 Bdx but I'm pretty sure they'll eventually deliver (this spring?!?!). They've never failed me before, though they've never been this late before. I haven't had any issues with bottle conditions from PC either. In fact, I've had more cooked bottles from local stores. All that said, I've stopped buying futures from them for a number of reasons, primarily because I don't think their prices are any longer worth it for the extra-long wait.

JimHow wrote: I still have never heard an explanation why wines have to sit 5 years someplace before shipment. Is it a cash flow problem? Did they take all this money to fund their expansion? Whatever the reason, I don't know of ANY retailer who takes so long to fill futures orders, and, especially now that PC prices are more in line with those elsewhere, I have other options out there [...] so that I don't need to give PC my business.

Bingo. No one except PC knows why they take so long to deliver futures. Their public explanation as far as I can tell is that they wait to "consolidate shipments," but that doesn't explain a delay of more than 6-12 months... Many times they seem to be delivering (or to not have delivered) wines 3, 4, 5 years after other stores have delivered the same wines on futures. Personally, this doesn't make any sense to me. The most plausible explanation -- which may or may not be true but who knows -- is they are not actually buying the wines up-front but rather buying them down the line (and using your money for other purposes in the meantime), which (if true) leaves the purchaser high and dry if their economic model doesn't work out and they go under. Years ago their prices were, on average, so much better than just about anyone else's that perhaps it was worth the gamble. Now that their prices are merely "competitive" it doesn't seem worth taking the chance. I would still buy in-stock wines without hesitation from them (though I haven't in a while), but I haven't bought any futures from PC for 5-6 years (iirc 2003 was my last futures vintage with them). The memory of getting $3-4k of wines out of Sam's right before they collapsed, but only by relentlessly harassing them, is fresh in my mind. Not saying PC will meet the same fate, but I'm uncomfortable with their delivery times and the lack of transparency of their business model.

Bear with me as this is my first post. I was drawn to the thread as I have 172 bottles pending from PC from very recent orders, as I was drawn by the deals for '09 and '10 pre-arrivals and futures. The main point I wanted to add is that I have had a similar experience before from The Wine Club in Santa Clara, CA. I waited more than two years extra (about 3.5 years in total) for bottles of '01 Valdicava Brunello. They eventually came through, but they had to source them through the grey market (I think their distibutor flaked) and my polite emails to them inquiring about the delay went unanswered for months before I eventually got the bottles. I'm still waiting a long time for a dozen more pre-arrivals from The Wine Club, even '05 Reisling ordered 1.5 years ago. So, I wanted to note that PC is not alone in long lead time on pre-arrivals and futures,nor are they alone on orders that run into difficulty.

Still, fingers crossed on my PC orders; I've been unable to resist these Bordeaux deals so far; I trust they will materialize.

Mrwinecabinet wrote:Bear with me as this is my first post. I was drawn to the thread as I have 172 bottles pending from PC from very recent orders, as I was drawn by the deals for '09 and '10 pre-arrivals and futures. Still, fingers crossed on my PC orders; I've been unable to resist these Bordeaux deals so far; I trust they will materialize.

If you are so worried about PC, why did you place an order? Just ask for your money back.

Hi Jeff:
I'm not particularly worried, but like other users I do note that it seems to take a lot longer to get the wine than most other merchants and I haven't heard a good explanation for that yet. On the plus side, I do find my communications with them to be answered very promptly, with great detail and their purchase process seems to be very smooth and easy; I get a pdf receipt within minutes and their inventory is updated automatically online so there never seems to be any risk of buying something that they just sold out of. Overall, it seems like a very smooth operation and there are plenty of vendors I deal with that are not nearly as smooth. It's handy that I live relatively local too so I look forward to visiting them some time soon.

I love your Bordeaux reviews on CellarTracker by the way

Mrwinecabinet wrote:Hi Jeff:
I'm not particularly worried, but like other users I do note that it seems to take a lot longer to get the wine than most other merchants and

Yup, you're right. PC is slow. I have no idea why, but they are. I buy much of my wine from PC and I've gotten every bottle ordered. Count me in as a fan of PC.

I love your Bordeaux reviews on CellarTracker by the way

Thanks for the nice words. I added a stack of tasting notes this morning. Trust me, they are much better when you read them on my site www.thewinecellarinsider.com

I'm still waiting on '05 L'Eglise Clinet from PC. My last call to them at the start of the spring shipping season, they told me they had the wine "in their possession" in temp-controlled storage "overseas" and were waiting to fill a container for shipment to the US. This explanation suggests but does not conclusively prove that they had no ownership interest in the wine at the time the order was placed. I had been told in earlier years that they were in the process of "sourcing" the wine, which also strongly suggests no ownership interest at the time the order was placed and paid for. Seeing how my own employees can occasionally mis-state our policies, I would be hard pressed to claim absolute certainty that PC takes futures orders on wines they don't own. But my belief is that that is a significant component of their business model.

PC has never failed to come through for me, but the wait for the L'Eglise Clinet is waaaay longer than I've ever experienced before. I'm not as worried now as I was during the depths of the recession, when I feared for their economic viability and I was still owed multiple cases. The fact that the wine has shot up so much in price gives me pause, but I believe them when they say it's in their possession and I believe they will come through. The resurrection of this thread was a timely reminder for me to call them again - it's now fall shipping season.

I stopped buying futures from PC after the '05 campaign, mostly because their pricing advantage declined to the point where the extra wait wasn't worth it. Though I did get sucked back in by a good price on a few bottles of pre-arrival '02 Taittinger Comtes de Champagne.

I no longer buy en primeurs because of my age but I agree with DAvid's price statement. I do buy from PC for futures on burgundy and minor bordeaux where they announce the due date. In ten years I had one call telling me they could not source a burgundy I ordered. They made a very generous counter-offer. I was pleased. Yes it takes time for some orders but they always arrive. Yes I believe it is a model that will cause apprehension for some. The wines always arrive in great condition. I am customer and will continue to be one. Their monthly "sales" contain some great bargains.

PC's new catalogue (arrived at my door yesterday) shows a great selection of high end wines. It is one of the better catalogue mailers I've seen as far as depth of selection.

What concerns me most about PC is that their customer service reps don't have or don't provide accurate information about pre-arrival wines. You may ask at time of purchase, and each service rep provides a different response....but nothing that would hint at 6+ years for delivery from date of order. Then it gets worse....with the example of my 2005s, I've had numerous differing responses ("we only have a few 2005s remaining to get in, and these are the last and our owner is prioritizing these and you should get these by Fall" (June 2010); ("let me talk to our buyer, and we will give you a call back"); ("we are filling a container and these will arrive by Spring" (October 2010). Probably the most honest response was last Fall "we don't know, but we will get you the wines and are working on it".

So I'm not sure calling or emailing will help....unless you want a refund or have a substitute wine proposal.

I'm still a customer....but not a fan.

I keep resolving to buy less from PC, but their recent deals on 2010s (savings of $50-100 a bottle) have drawn me in yet again....

Marc they did have some great deals on 2010 futures but between my age, their drinking windows and the fullness of my cellar, added on top of the looooong wait, I found it easy, for once, to resist.

Are we talking about the store in Berkeley? I've never ordered from them online but it is fun to visit. They have very cool stuff in stock and often very good prices. I find it amazing that a store like that could exist at University and San Pablo. 20 years ago, you took your life into your hands simply standing on the corner.

That's the place. I've never been, just ordered on the net.

I look forward to visiting them to pick up my purchases as they come in. Having ordered >170 bottles from there over the last three months, I may need several trips to pick up the wine , especially as I'm sure to keep ordering more over time..Will be the first store I'll get to where I need more than one trip to pick up the wine - should be exciting, although I'll need to wait a few years before I can drink any of the stuff I pick up.

It's still kind of a gritty area and the store stands out, but it's no longer dangerous. It's an odd place for a store of that caliber, though.

Funny thing: the last time was there, in their rare wine room under glass, they had all these super-rarities like 1811 d'Yquem and 1870 Lafite and so on. But looking closely I noticed they were empties. I asked the guy in the store about it and he told me those were some of the actual bottles served at Rodenstock tastings. I have no way to confirm that of course. But I found it funny that the bottles were considered collectors items, all the moreso because the wine that had been in them was likely fake! The historic nature of the fakery and what it spawned made the bottles more significant than if the wine had been real.

Fascinating story, Manton! There's a place in London that claims to have an original 1811 Yquem. It's called Hedonism, founded by a Russian cell phone magnate. Here's a link to a story:
http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2012/0 ... ne-retail/

The PC store, located about four blocks from my daughter's house, is indeed beautiful. PC owns the property. Michael says that this gorgeous place costs less than the junky warehouse type store they rented in Emeryville. They do little walk in business. One problem is that they cannot hold tastings because PC has distributor and importer licenses in addition to their retail license. The cold room also holds some gems that are full.

It's not really an odd place either. It's on the main road into berkely from I 80 and its about 5 blocks or so from the highway. It's easy to get to and it has tons of traffic that pass it. Like Bill, my daughter lives about 8 blocks from there. I physically visit quite a bit. enjoy.