Call me Lemming. Hear my confession. 2009 Bordeaux and I

[Blanquito]

I broke my buying freeze... on some 2009 futures. The feeding frenzy this month was too much to resist.

Including what I bought last year, I now have just under 10 cases of 2009 coming (half of which are half-bottles).

For those scoring at home, this totaled 10,157 Parker Points or 92.34 pts per bottle.

Anyone else break down and go long on 2009?

[Bacchus]

Wow, it must be the time of year, or something. Just earlier this afternoon in my office I was jotting down words like Lynch Bages, Pontet Canet, Haut Bailly, D'Issan and Giscours. After tallying it all up, however, I didn't put the order in. But boy did I come close, and might yet go forward it. If only 09 wasn't so expensive!!

So what did you order Blanquito?

[DavidG]

Welcome aboard Patrick. I bought a bunch of '09s too. My resistance gave way long ago. The reportedly lush style is right in my wheelhouse. Mostly stuff in the $25-75 range but a couple of pricier favorites like Angelus.

[Michael-P]

10,157 WA points. Wow! I never thought of it that way. But in that case, what was the $/point?

I too am weakening and thinking about the frenzy and how I should be buying more 09s. I thought I had enough futures at about 20 cases, but now I am thinking I need more at cheaper price points.

Can anyone save me from the monkey on my back?

Michael-P

[Houndsong]

5 cases over the past two years.(Had a shot at some high aggregate points until "+" ripped my face off, Goldman-style.) I've tried to keep my perspective. I don't lease a new car every three years, why should I lease new wines every vintage of the century. The old models have been broken in, and in some cases are just as good if not better. Hence 88, 90, 94, 98, 03, 04, and 05 and a couple of 06s and 08s have accounted for the obvious deficit in 09 purchasing over the past 2 years.

[JonB]

Nice point total, Blanquito!!

I bought 4.5 cases early on (between Montrose, Poyferre, Pontet Canet, Duhart, and Pavie Macquin), and since then have only purchased smaller lots of what I liked at UGC or regularly buy, (and then a few at a half-off sale at PC), for just under 10 cases.

Other than the retailers boosting the prices of RPs high scorers (and many were already so highly priced they haven't gone up), there appears to be a supply of almost all these wines. Are these not selling (like hotcakes)?

[PaulF]

I'm not buying any of the classified growths. The QPR is just awful. I have plenty of stock from 98, 00, 05 etc. to last me for decades.

I am buying from the petite Chateau's. From the 12 or 13 inexpensive wines I've tried so far, there is an amazing consistency and plushness to the wines. Great stuff for early consumption.

[Blanquito]

Bacchus, here's the damage. Most of these were sourced in 2011 before Parker's final scores were released:

Chateau, Parker Pts, Size, Cost
d'Armailhac, 92, 375 ml, $20
l'Arrosee, 91, 375 ml, $20
Barde-Haut, 94, 750 ml, $32
Beychevelle, 93, 375 ml, $32
Calon Segur, 94+, 375 ml, $41
Cantemerle, 91+, 750 ml, $32
Chasse Spleen, 90, 750 ml, $27
Domaine Chevalier Rouge, 95, 375 ml, $35
Fleur Morange Mathilde, 92, 750 ml, $17
Fombrauge, 92, 750 ml, $28
Fonroque, 91, 750 ml, $15
Grand Puy Lacoste, 95, 375 ml, $36
Gazin, 96, 375 ml, $36
Gloria, 93, 750 ml, $30
Grand Mayne, 93, 375 ml, $20
Lafon Rochet, 90, 375 ml, $22
Lagune, 95, 375 ml, $30
Lanessan, 89+, 750 ml, $17
Lynch Bages, 98, 375 ml, $56
Marquis-de-Terme, 89, 750 ml, $26
Meyney, 92, 750 ml, $25
Monbousquet, 93, 375 ml, $20
Nenin, 89+, 750 ml, $36
Pipeau, 91, 750 ml, $20
Poujeaux, 92, 750 ml, $27
Rouget, 92, 750 ml, $26
St. Pierre, 98, 375 ml, $36

[Houndsong]

Dang, you just missed with the Lynch and St. Pierre.

[Ramon_NYC]

Nice haul, Blanquito.
As far as average or summing total points are concerned, my take on it is you should only take half the points for the 375s and double 'em for the magnums.

[Houndsong]

Where are you pulling 750s of Fonroque for $15? I think that's a GCC now. Talk about a house wine. If I had to guess ...

[dstgolf]

I'm about the same Patrick. Like David have stuck mostly to the satellite vineyards in the $25-50 range. Amazing how many overlaps with your list. $20 for a Monbousquet split is exceptional. I think I paid $79 for the 750ml. Like David I swore that I was too old to think about futures following the 2005 tranche but here we go again. I be backing up the truck to pick up 14 cases of the 2009s. Don't know what the heck I'll do with this wine but the kids are talking about their inheritance!!

[Bacchus]

Gosh, if I only had access to prices like that Blanquito, I'd (is there an expression other than "back up the truck," since it's already been taken ). I'm sure some of the long-time Canadian posters, like Nic, have filled you in on the mark up we suffer in the land of snow and ice. Your $32 bottle of Cantemerle, for example, becomes $50 here, and that's the government pre-order price. Once it actually gets on the shelves it will be more! It's like that across the board.

What's a 750 ml bottle of the 09 Lynch Bages going for now?

[dstgolf]

Bacchus,

Sometimes it's frustrating to see the price difference. You must remember the Americans have enjoyed the benefit of price dumping for years in a big way. The Bordeaux prices around the USA have been the cheapest in the world for years apart from a blip in 2000 when the cheapest prices anywhere were the Quebec 2000 futures offer!! I just accept the fact that it's the price to pay to live where we are. Would you trade places? I wouldn't even though there are many,many things I love south of the border my home is here and I love it. I'll pay the premium on fine Bordeaux for neck deep snow in the winter,black flies and mosquitoes in the spring,three/maybe four months of summer and what a glorious colorful fall. How could I give up maple syrup and live on Aunt Jemima. Trade sugar pie for Whoopie pie and exchange a 15 minute commute to work for gridlock. I'll take the premium on Bordeaux thank you very much!

[Bacchus]

Well, Dan, I don't plan on moving south anytime soon -- don't want to give up my health care! Hah! And I'm just too much of a Canadian to ever consider being anything else. But as you know, it can be frustrating to see the price differential on wines between the two countries. And while part of the difference may be the dumping that occurs in the States, I can't help but think that part of it is also due to the level of taxation up here, as well as the fact that our provincial governments have given themselves a monopoly on the selling of alcoholic beverages. Mind you, if it came down to a choice between health care or lower taxes on alcohol, I'll pay the taxes.

[dstgolf]

Bacchus,

You hit the nail on the head. Hard to take a true Canadian out of their country!

How can it not be price dumping on the US in the past to maintain or grow a market. I agree our taxes are high but check the prices elsewhere in the world for fine Bordeaux including France and you'll see prices that aren't far out of line with ours. Certainly not half the price as often seen in US pricing. I think some of the price escalation in the USA may be happening because the Bordelais are feeling more confident in developing an expanding Asian and to lesser extent Russian market but I don't think you can sell those markets short. The wealthy want status and what better way than buying Gucci,Prada etc than putting Lafite,Latour etc on the luncheon/dinner table to impress! Don't kid yourselves there is an incredible number of wealthy individuals in these countries that are only devlopng a taste for the finer things.

[Houndsong]

Can I just have a show of hands of the members here who have yet to taste an 09? Of course I've only tried the 09 Capbern Gasqueton, which is under the same management as Calon Segur, and I think adjacent to it. Just one data point and no generalization from that except that what I tasted was very consistent with what I read about the vintage generally. It gave me some pause about blindly buying more for fear of running into something that was even more "09" than that, or especially something from the right bank that might truly be over the top.

[Tom In DC]

The US market for wine has been (and probably continues to be) very competitive internally. There are literally dozens of national-level retailers that compete for every sale that goes through Wine-Searcher, so they operate on very thin margins. There were some fire sales on Bordeaux in the US as Diageo (formerly Chateau and Estates) exited the Bordeaux market, but if you look at current vintages, I don't see much evidence of dumping in the US.

When I search for "Leoville Barton 2008 Bottles" - a solid wine (HWSRN 92) but not a darling of the speculators -- in Canada, I get four hits, ranging in price from $86.91 (prices in USD) up to $110.69 - and you had better be in Calgary or Vancover if you want any! When I switch to the US, I find 99 offerings, ranging from $64.99 up to $119.99, with an average of $110 (as much as the highest prive in Canada!). Switch to Europe, and I find a price range from $56.00 up to $143.84, averaging $78. I don't see much evidence of lower prices in the US vs. Europe here.

When I search for something rarer like"Giacosa Asili 2005' in Canada, I get three hits - one in Calgary and two (at the exact same price!) in Toronto, ranging in price from $189.05 (prices in USD) all the way up to $190.19 - a nationwide price range well under 1%! Can anyone say "price fixing?" In the US I find 21 offerings, ranging from $107.50 up to $259.99. The low prices are pre-arrival, likely grey market, reflecting current market value better than the high prices which seem to have been on the shelves for a couple of years. Interestingly, the average price in the US is, you guessed it, $190! Switch to Europe, and I find a price range from $74.88 up to $172.67, with an average of $115. Again, the best price in the US is well above the best price in Europe, and the average price in the US actually matches the Canadian average.

I think the provincial monopolies, high taxes, and very restrictive import rules for its citizens takes quite a toll on wine consumers above our norther border, rather than some unseen hand favoring the US.

[dstgolf]

Tom,

I think prices have certainly closed the gap in the last decade between Canada and the USA. Back in the 80s and 90s before the advent of an Asian market is it just coincidental that prices in the US were so much cheaper than anywhere else in the world including France. Yes there is a huge difference in taxation on wine/spirits between our two countries and knowing people on the board of the liquor control board in Ontario they continue to demand increasing revenues to be added to the bottom line of the provincial tax coffers to gained on the backs of wine lovers. If you agree we are taxed much more heavily here then what explanation do you have other than the preferrential pricing that my American friends HAD enjoyed for years is no longer the case. Has competition gone down? Collusion amongst vedors? I doubt it. I think the market has changed! Always amazing how things are interpreted depending which side of the fence/border one sits on.

[Houndsong]

Do the European prices on Winesearcher reflect VAT? Because I too often see some competitive prices for wines in France and England versus US.

[DavidG]

When I looked into acquiring a '93 Batailley for the Convention, the only merchant I found was in the UK. His price on WS Pro did not include VAT, plus customs and shipping charges would have added a fair additional sum to the price. I don't know if that's universal - that one merchant is my only first-hand experience. Had to buy a whole case of the stuff, too, so I passed.

[Chateau Vin]

Do the European prices on Winesearcher reflect VAT? Because I too often see some competitive prices for wines in France and England versus US.

As far as I know, the prices do not reflect VAT. Just like in the US listing, the tax is not included in the price display. If you add VAT, IMO the prices are pretty much the same (generally speaking)...

[Bacchus]

One of the difficulties in comparing pricing between Canada and the US is that the government, at least in this province, does not adjust its prices due to changes in the free market. When the government calculates its retail price, it will not change that price no matter what happens in the open market. So I can get, for example, 2004 Ch. Margaux for the same price it cost when it first hit the shelves back in 2006/7. If it doesn't sell it will still be the same price in another 5 years! What this means, of course, is that in a market where prices are quickly rising, it may be possible to get a wine up here for a great price. That happened 18 months ago with Lafite. There was a bunch of older vintages of Lafite on the shelves in the summer of 2010 at prices that got increasingly better by the day; they simply hadn't sold over the years. Somehow some wealthy individual in China learned of the situation and flew here in their private jet and bought it all. From what I heard, they paid cash for the lot, in USD! We haven't had a bottle of Lafite in this province since! This sort of thing can only occur, however, when prices climb way above their original retail price since Canada's prices start out so high to begin with. In any event, what this means is that the prices asked for the 09 vintage up here won't be affected by Parker's new ratings. On the other hand, if the liquor board decides to order more of a given wine, they will have to pay more and that difference will be reflected in the retail price. The only exception to this state of affairs is when the liquor board decides they need to clear something out entirely, which they do every so often. Then we have a chance to get something on a clearance sale, some of which represent very good value.

[dstgolf]

Bacchus,

Every province has some differences. Certainly Ontario recognizes the market and with Parker scores will price accordingly. They will get different wavs of a product starting with futures pricing which will definitely be lower than release pricing. Here you will have an opportunity to get virtually all classified growths on release but still typically higher than our American counterpart. The spread however has narrowed over the years. With each succesive release(vintages..monthly and classics..quarterly) you will see escalating prices for sure especially for wines that are being rereleased with 5-10 years of age on them. Amazing how much premium they ask then!

Quebec is slightly different with a similar closed market and pricing tends to be higher especially for US and Aussie/NZ wines.

Generally though I've found the price gap between our countries to have gone from double prviously to 25% premium or better now depending on the product. Regardless prices are rising everywhere and just glad I'm well stocked for the future!

[Tom In DC]

Basically I don't know what pricing was like in Canada "back in the day". Did Canada have anything like The Wine Spectator publicizing retail prices nationwide? Oh yeah, the provincial monopolies wouldn't have had any motivation to do such a thing! But smart buyers in the US (and probably in Canada as well) knew exactly at what level the biggest US retailers were pricing the hot wines of the day. It was a very competitive market.

I can believe that the Bordelais gave better pricing to their largest customer (Chateau & Estates?), but I can't imagine that those prices were anywhere near what anyone would legitimately consider dumping. The provincial monopolies set their prices based on whatever the prevailing policies of their masters may have been, but I'm pretty confident that competitive pricing wasn't much of a factor - that whole monopoly thing again, you know? I was visiting a retailer when he received a fax from one of the smaller US importers offering cases of 1982 Leoville Las Cases for $340 per plus shipping, and the retailer had sold dozens of them in the $360/case range (plus $6/case shipping) before I left an hour later (and no, he didn't sell all of them to me!) I can't imagine that the LCBO would have passed through pricing with such thin margins at any point of its existence, but a US retailer just couldn't mark wine up very far past the offerings big national retailers posted in the WS every two weeks. Heck, we had a retailer in DC around that time who only sold solid cases of wine, marked up 6% from his cost. He didn't make many friends in the business, but Saturday morning pickups at his facility were always fun!

Finally, if what I understand about the purchasing power of these state and provincial monopolies is fact, it's a wonder why they haven't always offered the lowest prices anywhere. Maybe they just didn't put in the work, scrambling around France to find the wines like the small importer I mentioned? Or maybe they just don't care about their customers?

[dstgolf]

Tom,

It's not that they don't care about the customer they are caught by this requirement to keep increasing revenues to fuel the tax system. The liquor boards are just another layer of hidden taxation with demands placed on them from above to generate an increase of X millions of dollars for the upcoming year based solely on previous years sales projections. Don't get me wrong this is not fair competition at all. The question I have is not about our system because I know there is no mercy shown by the tax man and their increasing greed for revenues. My question with this fact in mind has the price gap narrowed in this time of escalating prices everywhere?

You are correct about purchasing power and the weight for Ontario was tremendous based on volume acquisition in the past with the LCBO being the single largest buyer in the world. I have been told that 10-15 years ago they turned the screws a lot tighter. They unfortunately for the consumer had a similar debacle a la Parker where the main buyer was seeking personal kick backs to get product listings. Needless to say a huge problem arose and they had a large gap to fill when he was dismissed. I have been told the buyers of today are no where the force of previous days.

Sad to say at the end of the day everyone is paying more and the more competition for a limited product will only continue to drive prices higher. I'm sure the seniors on this board have heard this story for years that prices can't continue to rise. There has to be a turn around. You tell when prices turned down in the past and I'll predict the future!

[Comte Flaneur]

Patrick you were right on the 2005s while killjoys like me said you shouldn't do it, so why not, you probably wont regret it.

I havent succumbed, but I did buy GPL and Pontet Canet on release, the later on Alex's recco - I see the price is already up 70%.

But I have been much more active elsewhere scooping up stuff like Palmer 85/86 and Latour 85 at - (by 09 standards) - bargain basement prices. I can drink these before I go senile.

[Blanquito]

I'm ambivalent about my 2009 purchases (and the scale of my 2005 purchases), but I can always dump these via auction for at least my initial costs if I decide I don't like them or have too much wine.

Given (what I've read about) the vintage style, I am most excited about these wines in my 2009 purchases:
-GPL
-Domaine de Chevalier
-Calon Segur

I hear you about going senile before these are drinkable, but I keep forgetting to say it seems, but I am already senile.

[Bacchus]

So Blanquito, would you say you're looking for wines that are fresh, but not too heavy in the mouth (perhaps silky), with balanced acidity and tannins. Nice thing about those types of wines is they don't cost as much as the so-called block busters. They're nice; the same reason to prefer butter over margarine.

[Chateau Vin]

I'm ambivalent about my 2009 purchases (and the scale of my 2005 purchases), but I can always dump these via auction for at least my initial costs if I decide I don't like them or have too much wine.

Given (what I've read about) the vintage style, I am most excited about these wines in my 2009 purchases:
-GPL
-Domaine de Chevalier
-Calon Segur

I hear you about going senile before these are drinkable, but I keep forgetting to say it seems, but I am already senile.

I tasted GPL and DDC at UGC tasting. I liked them. As legendary Marquis once said "My heart is at Calon", and for some reason I always liked Calon, and its style. So got some.I think you are right in getting excited about these wines.

As a student, cannot splurge too much on buying by case for each Chateau, but got in limited quantities. I loved 09 GL, Pichon Baron and Segla. So got these too in very limited quantities. But I still have time, and once out of school I will have more opportunities to buy good future vintages...

[Houndsong]

I confess to buying the GL right off the bat because a) I don't have any (somewhat important - although I subsequently took down some of the 2008). b) I've really liked the few I've had (highly important). c) At $55, it was so reasonably priced (highly important, and I can't think of a less expensive 2nd growth in this vintage, even if I don't agree with the very loose usage of "super second" as applied to it by some) and d) most critics, and especially "The Critic," made it a point of basically apologizing for the wine because it was "not a blockbuster" or "not the most concentrated in the context of the vintage" (highly important. I sure hope "+" doesn't double-cross me again [I saw where he also apologized for La Croix de Gay having "only" 13.5 % abv in this vintage]).

[Chateau Vin]

I confess to buying the GL right off the bat because a) I don't have any (somewhat important - although I subsequently took down some of the 2008). b) I've really liked the few I've had (highly important). c) At $55, it was so reasonably priced (highly important, and I can't think of a less expensive 2nd growth in this vintage, even if I don't agree with the very loose usage of "super second" as applied to it by some) and d) most critics, and especially "The Critic," made it a point of basically apologizing for the wine because it was "not a blockbuster" or "not the most concentrated in the context of the vintage" (highly important. I sure hope "+" doesn't double-cross me again [I saw where he also apologized for La Croix de Gay having "only" 13.5 % abv in this vintage]).

Nice Price Hound...When I tasted GL at UGC, I loved the acidity, tannin level and overall balance of wine although I felt that it may not have legs to age as well as its St Julien 2nd growth brethren...But overall I loved the wine very much...

Also, FWIW, the critic settled on 95 for GL...

[Chasse-Spleen]

I tried Lanessan '09 a few weeks ago. It was very concentrated and tannic. Definitely very high quality but maybe not so flattering for now.