If 2002L is best and 2006 is next best, what comes next?

[JimHow]

I think we all pretty much agree that 2000 is the across-the-board best vintage in Bordeaux since at least 1961, probably even best, because of wine making improvements, since the pre-phylloxera era.

Since 2000, it seems pretty clear that 2002L is the best vintage for classic styled Bordeaux, and 2006 has snuck in there due to its drinkability and balance, at least on the left bank.

What is your third favorite vintage in Bordeaux since 2000? Have you had any 2009s yet? If so, how do they match up to 2002L in your book?

[Jay Winton]

2009 seems to be excellent across the board. The 09 Caronne St Gemme for which I posted a TN recently is an excellent example priced in the mid teens. 2005 seems to have produced some nice wines ex. La Lagune but I haven't tasted enough producers to really make a definitive case.

[Claudius2]

Jim
Interestingly I have been buying more 06s as the QPR makes sense and the wines are pretty good.
Yet to me after 2000, 2005 is a great vintage.
It is not a "classic" vintage in that is is massive, with heaps of everything.
Maybe a modern day 61??

Yet 2009 is a great vintage.
I have been sucking on these young and wow, they are great!
Even ordred another case of Clinet Pomerol.

I'm findng that 06 is showing well now biut I also like 04.
Another forgotten vitnage, they offer freshness, balance and good fruit without overt alcohol or tannins.
Yet they have developed at a slower rate than the 06s.

There is no real point arguing about which is best, but 2000, 05 and 09 are great vintages and even the lesser wines are excellent.
To me, what makes the vintage is the quality of the moderately priced wines not just Petrus, Ausone or Lafite.

[JimHow]

I can't wait to try some of these 2009s, they haven't made their way up here in the northeast US yet.
I'm going to try to generate a lot of 2009 tasting note discussions.

[Claudius2]

Jim
the lesser wines are showing well now but I think they will shut down soon,
So try a few now and it the tannins are showing thru, they may have shut down for a long time.

[DavidG]

The initial barrel reports (not that I put much weight on them) on the '09s suggested that they would never shut down , a la the '82s. But a few respected palates (Ben Giliberti is one, and now we have Mark concurring) have been tellling me that they are indeed shutting down. I tried a couple of non-classed '09s in the <$20 category earlier this year and they were drinking very well. I'm not going to be in a rush to pop my classed-growth '09s, but you never know... Jim may just get me pop a few young.

[JimHow]

I think we're going to have to do a big 2009 theme here on BWE between now and the end of the year, David. I want everyone posting their 2009 notes.

[Chasse-Spleen]

As I have been saying, 2009 kicks major ass. It is the first vintage since 2000 that has really leapt out at me and made me say, 'wow!' I know I don't really have the experience to say this, but with limited knowledge, my guess is that '09 is somewhat similar to '89. Big, ripe tannins, and tons of depth. We are lucky that another truly great vintage has come along on both banks.
-Chasse

[Chasse-Spleen]

BTW, I have to add, I love '02L and '06 (mainly lefties I've tried), but '09 is on a different level. It's obvious. Jim - you will love them!

[JimHow]

Hmm. Well, we will see.. I wasn't overwhelmed by the 2005s... Why will I like the 2009s so much if I didn't like the 2005s?

[JimHow]

"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"

[Blanquito]

My favorites of the decade in order (to date only):
2005
2000
2001
2002
2003 (very irregular, but the good ones are excellent)
2006
2004

I've not tried enough after 2006 to have any opinion. I think the top wines in 2000 will be legends (meaning the top 30-40 wines), but those were mostly out of my price range as futures (I was still a grad student, so I have some but not many), but I think 2005 is better across the board. Maybe the top wines are better in 2000, but from top to bottom, 2005 is fantastic (if highly tannic). 2002 is better Left Bank than 2001, but across both banks, 2001 seems more consistent to my palate.

[Chasse-Spleen]

2009 is totally different from 2005. The texture is completely different, much more open, although you can't say that '05 was open at all. Totally hard as nails from day one. '09 is much more giving. It has a kind of rugged charm. Need I say more? '05 is a monk's wine. '09 is more of a game keeper's wine. Like the difference between sex and celibacy. Bardot and Denueve. Give me Bardot any day.

[Nicklasss]

I did not have a lot of 2009, but I agree that they seem excellent to fantastic up to now. My latest experience is the basic Bordeaux 2009 Sirius, and even after more than two weeks in the fridge, the leftover was drinking really well... I was impressed. Ok, I'll try another little 2009 this wekekend.

I did not buy that many 2002 or 2007 so I'll never know for these.

My first tasting of 2006, let me down.

2000 is probably the best in the last 15 years. 2001 are velvety and balanced, but not enough structure to hold forever. 2003 are not the monster everyone predicted (exept the 2003 Péby Faugère). Did not opened any 2004 or 2008 yet. 2005 has a special style, but is surely (I like to beleive it) a great vintage. I'm not old enough, but to my limited experience, 2005 seem to have similarities with 1986? Seem to me that even if 2005 is great, it was a tough vintage to select when harvest and hard to vinify. A strong concentration and strong ripe tannic structure, that when you make less concentrated wine is ok, but on terroirs who concentrate naturally the grape, or green harvest selection to concentrate the leftover grapes, or concentration mean used for vinification, some top wine seem ''too much'' actually? But I guess that the 2005 in 20 years will be glorious.

Nic

[JimHow]

So what's the deal out there, are 2009s hitting the shelves yet in places like NYC, DC, SF, Chicago, etc.?

[Claudius2]

Jim and others
I understand why some are not (yet) impressed with 2005's.
If you go back and read a few notes of mine, only the lesser wines are open (or close to it) at present.
The 05 Bernadotte was an exception and even then still tannic.
Some are presently hard and show no interest in offering pleasure to the drinker!
Like my attempt to drink a still closed up 05 Cantermerle last year that was impenetrable. SImilar effort was Priure' Lichine - two wines that often show well young. Not this time.

Yet 86 was like that young as well.
They took 20 years before showing signs of opening (again excepting lesser wines).
And 05 is much more consistnet and better overall than 86 - a vintage with many outstanding wines though many poor ones as well.

In the context of the 10 yrs 2000 to 2009, I rate only 2007 as average and 2003 as an atypical and highly variable year (which did not suit my palate).
The other years from 00 to 09 were all at least good to very good.

In response to Blanquito's order, I think that all of 01, 02, 04, 06, 08 are very good on the left bank and have found that 04 wines are simply not ready.
I've opened several over the last year and have found that they are still primary.
01, 02, 03 and even 06 are showing readiness but not 04.
So they simply need to be forgotten about for 5 more yrs at least.

All in all, a good decade (though the real decade is 01 to 10) with three outstnading vintages (00, 05, 09) and several very good ones.

[Chateau Vin]

So what's the deal out there, are 2009s hitting the shelves yet in places like NYC, DC, SF, Chicago, etc.?

Jim,

As far as Chicago is concerned, I saw 2009s arriving for the last month or so...If I remember correctly, I recently saw the following notables...

Pontet Canet
Brane Cantenac
Duhart Milon
Haut Bergey
Domaine de Chevalier
Batailley
Beau Sejour Becot
Smith Haut Lafitte
2nd wine of Lafite
Fombrauge
Clinet
Pavie Maquin
Bernadotte

[JCNorthway]

Chateau Vin,

Can you tell me where you are seeing these wines in Chicago. Is it at retailers or the auction places that also sell direct to consumer? I did not buy any futures, but am interested in picking up a few wines from this vintage.

Jon

[Comte Flaneur]

Jim I think you premises are flawed; my favourite vintage is 2001, the Cinderella of all Cinderella vintages, coming as it does after the over-hyped and over-rated 2000 vintage. 2001 is very strong on both banks. It is at least as good as 2002 on the left bank and far better on the right bank. I haven't tried a 2000 that I have really enjoyed yet, apart from VCC, which is painfully young, and Figeac. It comes across as a clumsy viontage without much finesse. Conseillante for example is a big let down. Maybe it is just because they are shut down very hard right now, but for me the burden of proof is very much on those who, like Jim, think it is a great year.

Apart from Lafite, I wasn't blown away by the 2004s initially but I suspect they are developing very well, judging by a couple of snippets and what a few savvy people here are saying, but this is the vintage where I will be on the look out. Like the 2001s it is strong on both banks. I like the 2002 left banks but it is in the price now.

Regarding other vintages, generally mixed to bad expereinces with 03s; 0s5 I think will be very great but you have to live to the age of 90 to find out. Of the 06s I have had they have been generally quite nice. Not tried the 07s or 08s while the 09s are insane. I tried some earlier this year. They are unbelievable.

[Chateau Vin]

Chateau Vin,

Can you tell me where you are seeing these wines in Chicago. Is it at retailers or the auction places that also sell direct to consumer? I did not buy any futures, but am interested in picking up a few wines from this vintage.

Jon

Jon,

I usually frequent Binnys and Wine Discount Center. Even if I don't buy, I visit Binnys once in every few weeks (well, its on my way) to see what's on the shelves. I visit Binnys in Lincoln Park. I find Lincoln Park has a wider selection than other Binnys' locations. Also, once or twice a year Binnys has 15% (except cellar items) sale, which I avail. All the 09s I saw were at Binnys...

Regarding Wine Discount Center, mostly these days I visit to pick up empty Wooden boxes for cellaring my upcoming 09 futures. But they do have good QPR. Recently I got 2 bottles of 2005 Bahans for 64 bucks...It's a small store, but the people are more knowledgeable than Binnys'.

[Chateau Vin]

Chateau Vin,

Can you tell me where you are seeing these wines in Chicago. Is it at retailers or the auction places that also sell direct to consumer? I did not buy any futures, but am interested in picking up a few wines from this vintage.

Jon

Jon & other Chicago BWErs,

There is a 15% off wine sale this saturday only at binnys.com...Can go to the website and print the coupon...Notable well priced 09 I found was Cantenac Brown for 59 before discount...

[Claudius2]

Guys
based on my tastings so far of 2009's they a modern day 1982, with better winemaking evident.
2005 is still the classic vintage but maybe more like 1961?

I think at this stage they are equivalent but different.
I am inclined to say that both are better than 2000 but only n the contst that all three are top vintages

[DavidG]

I know Jim's a bigger '02 fan than I am. My take is that they are good wines, but not best of decade material. Here it is 10 years down the road, and some folks are starting to open them. Perhaps it is poor etiquette to copy and paste someone else's notes from another board, but they are all publicly available via CT. If this offends, I will remove it. From a Chicago tasting, notes from Matt Latuchie:

=========================================

wanted to sit down with some bottles from this understated (maligned?) vintage. some surprises and some disappointments.

2002 BORDEAUX - 10 YEAR RETROSPECTIVE - Maude's Liquor Bar - Chicago, IL (9/17/2012)

Met up with a couple friends to check in on the 2002 Bordeaux vintage. As a whole, the wines seemed to be in a strange spot in their development. With the thinner than usual vintage, the oak dominated a lot of the wines - pushing the fruit around like a school bully. A lot of us talked about what a similar tasting would yield in another 10 years - would the oak yield revealing elegant fruit? or would the oak reveal thin, acidic and unpleasant fruit. Some wines suggested the former and some the latter.

I had a great time tasting through the wines and the folks at Maude's did another great job taking care of us. Their food pairs incredible well with wines like this - for groups of 6 or under, it's hard to imagine a better venue.

Graves

•2002 Château La Mission Haut-Brion - France, Bordeaux, Graves, Pessac-Léognan
In a tasting of 2002 Bordeaux, this stood head and shoulders above the rest. Wasn't even close actually. One whiff of the nose and its smokey minerals you're whisked immediately away to Graves. Definitely one of the most distinct terroirs in the world. Loved its masculine and dark nose which combined dark fruits, dried floral notes, crushed stone and earth. The palate had a richness to it that was quite appealing. While the tannins were still firm, the material here is top rate. Dark berries, scorched earth and violets all married nicely on the palate. Awesome stuff. (94 pts.)

•2002 Château Smith Haut Lafitte - France, Bordeaux, Graves, Pessac-Léognan
Drank alongside the 2002 LMHB. The oak was very noticeable here - with mocha, cherry, vanilla, and earth wrapped in. The palate really showed its oak influences...as it seemed more like drinking a mocha latte from Starbucks than wine from Graves. (82 pts.)

Pavie Showdown

•2002 Château Pavie - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru
Seemed to be in a weird spot with the oak really showing through. The fruit was a bit dim, thin and acidic and wasn't a great match at the moment for the smokey, toasty oak. Will time reveal elegant fruit? Or will this just fade away? (84 pts.)

•2004 Château Pavie - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru
Another example of a great 2004 Bordeaux. Compared to the 2002 that was drank alongside this, the fruit and oak seemed like a nice match for one another. The cherry, cassis, tobacco, graphite and floral notes were integrated seamlessly with the oak. A very nice package at the moment that should develop nicely for a while to come. (91 pts.)

Flight 4

•2002 Château Calon-Ségur - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, St. Estèphe
I've always been a big fan of the house style at Calon-Ségur which I regard as more feminine and elegant. This hit the mark too. Seemed to have much less oak in play which played nicely with the fruit. Instead of getting chocolate, coffee and smoke notes from the oak's influence, I was left tasting fine tobacco, tilled soil, sweet cherry fruit and elegant floral notes. Really enjoyed this. (91 pts.)

•2002 Château Léoville Las Cases - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, St. Julien
Decanted for 6 hours beforehand. Another example of the 2002 vintage being in a strange spot for my palate. The oak's influence really seemed to show through with the fruit playing second fiddle. Underneath the fruit seemed elegant and interesting with subtle tobacco, red fruit and earth notes peaking through. Have to wonder what will show up when the oak dissipates more. (87 pts.)

Flight 5

•2002 Château Pontet-Canet - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, Pauillac
The fruit's intensity here was pretty nice and blended well with the toasty oak notes. Enjoyed the dark berries, pipe tobacco, tilled soil and floral notes that were woven together on the palate. Compared to many other 2002 Bordeaux this evening, this seemed to have a nice combination of fruit intensity and oak presence. (90 pts.)

•2002 Château Canon-la-Gaffelière - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru
Had noticeable oak influences on the nose and palate, but it worked nicely with the rich cassis, earth and graphite notes. The richer texture of the wine - potentially from the oak - was noticeable compared to its cohorts. This also had noticeable textural differences - a bit silkier - giving it an air of elegance. (90 pts.)

[Winona Chief]

Matt was a regular at DC wine events for several years until he moved away last fall and I respect his palate and wine expertise. I don't have a lot of experience with 2002 Bordeaux but do remember that the 2002 Mouton Rothschild was very nice a few years ago. Based on these notes I think now is probably not the best time to be opening 2002s but would expect the 2002s will be just fine 5, 10, 15 and 20 years from now.

As for the other vintages of the 2000s, I am a big fan of 2000, 2009 and 2001 (Graves and right bank). I think 2006 will be just fine and 2005 will probably require more bottle age than I have patience for.

Chris Bublitz

[robertgoulet]

'04 is my fav no question....had an unknowner from rollan de by stable....'04 ch. la Clare.....outfriginstanding, very classic