Poll: HWSRN: Has he been good or has he been bad for Bdx?

[Jeff Leve]

Jeff,

I think you might want to clarify. You are talking about Grand vin.

I made that clarification in previous posts. I was quite clear on that issue, stating more wine was being placed into second third and on occasion, 4th wines.

[Tom In DC]

If anyone bothers to read the entire thread, they'll see that we were all talking about production of only the grand vin's at first.

[AlexR]

Wait a minute, please.

If an estate's entire production (total yield) has gone up considerably, but - in many instances - the amount of grand vin has gone down, that does NOT mean that yields *even of the grand vin* have been reduced!
The quantity may be, but not the yield per hectare.

It's only logical.

Alex R.

[DavidG]

You don't know that Alex, unless you know the yields of the specific plots that go into the Grand Vin. Plus I question the yield/quality connection. Not in general, but in the details of the specifics. There are other factors. There is less grand vin being made. Maybe they are only including wine from the older plots/vines that have lower yields. Yield can be influenced by density of planting as well as by amount of fruit per vine - two very different things. I don't think your argument holds water, Alex, let alone wine.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Whether yields have gone down, gone up, or remained static, if in fact as it appears the supply/production of the grand vin is coming down you'd think this would be a function of some rational selection of the "best barrels" and not just a random line drawing/curtailment. Maybe it's just the MBAs messing with the supply to find the optimal marginal price. Maybe it's some of both.

Off-thread a bit but what might be of interest though is the ultimate homogeneity of the entire bottled grand vin production. I guess there's a final blend of all the selected barrels during bottling to ensure consistency? But also, at en primeur, would it be safe to say that the chateau are presenting an even more refined selection - the creme de la creme - that might not be truly reflective of the finished product? I assume that would be how the game is played, since there is the relationship between pricing and scores at that point.

Then at year three, when the critics mete out their "final scores" (meaningful to the consumers at least) these are from tasting of random retail production (OTS) bottles?

[DavidG]

All good points, Art.

There has long been speculation/assumption that the Chateaux show the best tasting barrels at en primeur. Some of the Chateaux haven't even made the final blend at the time the journalists arrive in early spring. Another reason why it's difficult to be certain about how the wines will eventually turn out. Parker used to do a second tasting a year after the vintage. I used to base my futures orders on those notes, back before prices went totally bonkers immediately upon release of the scores.

[AlexR]

David,

Happy anniversary to you and your wife, and I'm glad the wines you enjoyed were worthy of the occasion.

As per your objections above, a couple are valid or partially valid (i.e. the relationship between yields and quality is complex - although I've never felt differently from you about this - and the age of the vines - although it's hard to see why this wouldn't weigh in favor of more volume today seeing as vines are generally replaced sooner nowadays).
However, vine density has altered little over the years, therefore yield per hectare cannot be discounted as easily as you did.

You write: "There is less grand vin being made". That assertion cannot be backed up, which is what I've been trying to say all along. It cannot be backed up because we know of no other production figures than those that are given to us by the châteaux themselves. The reality is that some won't say, others don't tell the truth, the proportions can vary a great deal from vintage to vintage and, as we have seen, the figures also differ enormously from estate to estate...

Of course, I, too, would be hard put to prove any point about the great growths with statistics for the very same reasons!

All the best,
Alex

[DavidG]

Alex, thanks.

I take your point about not being sure about how much grand vin is being made and sold. I assumed that there were reliable numbers reported, though to be honest I have no idea who reports them, how they are tabulated, or how reliable they are. Can you or Jeff shed any further light on where the numbers come from when we read that there were x cases of 20xx Chateau Whatever, and whether those numbers are to be believed (considering potential biases and conflicts)? Is it just what the chateaux say, or are there market monitors that track these things?

[JimHow]

I would think that they are reporting accurate numbers somewhere, no?
There must be French laws on that stuff, and audits, and the French equivalent of the IRS.

[Jeff Leve]

However, vine density has altered little over the years

That is not correct for the Right Bank. Today, vineyards are being planted with much higher density in Pomerol and St. Emilion. In the Medoc, it has stayed same at close to 10,000 vines per hectare.

You write: "There is less grand vin being made". That assertion cannot be backed up, which is what I've been trying to say all along. It cannot be backed up because we know of no other production figures than those that are given to us by the châteaux themselves.

Now I am confused. First, you quote Cocks & Ferret as being accurate, because they get their data from the chateaux. Now you say data from the chateau is not accurate because they are lying. Are you seriously saying that when asked, if a chateaux responds, they are lying? Sorry, but that is for the tin foil hat crowd. Not all chateaux are willing to release numbers of cases produced. But one can do the math. 2 tons per acre is equivalent to 27 hectoliters per hectare. With that information, along with the information provided by the chateaux, (Hopefully they are not lying about that too) which is the percentage of the crop used in the Grand Vin, which is less than it was in previous decades. They provide the yields, which is lower than it was in previous decades.

Alex, you are wrong on this. I'd say ask any winemaker from an in demand estate, but the combination of you knowing better than they do, plus, you think they are lying anyway makes that a waste of time.

Granted, some chateaux are not going to be forthcoming. I agree on that. But unless there is a mass conspiracy for every serious producer to agree to lie about their production numbers and all the negociants need to be in on it too, either you are right, and all the chateaux are wrong, or their really is less wine being made today.

[AlexR]

Jeff,

In response to my statement that vine density has altered little over the years you replied “That is not correct for the Right Bank. Today, vineyards are being planted with much higher density in Pomerol and St. Emilion. In the Medoc, it has stayed same at close to 10,000 vines per hectare”.
Where do you get your figures from, please? Since much of this thread is about figures, it really is up to *both you and me* to supply more than just opinions. Not that this is an easy thing to do… The real killer, as usual, is the distinction that has been made (not by me) between the great growths and appellations. There are simply *no statistics* for the former since they are outside appellation law and are self-administered.

Speaking of figures, you wrote “First, you quote Cocks & Ferret as being accurate, because they get their data from the chateaux. Now you say data from the chateau is not accurate because they are lying. Are you seriously saying that when asked, if a chateaux responds, they are lying?” The above is not quite what I said. I said that the only source of production figures I know of is the Féret (“the Bordeaux Bible”, also out in English, as you know) and that the figures had been supplied by the châteaux. Where else would you expect to find the figures???
In fact, thinking it was useful to go past the opinion stage, I did supply a series of numbers. But there were things there, inconsistencies I could not understand. So I called up Bruno Boidron of Féret (one of my customers) and asked him about this. He said that it is entirely up to the château owners to say how big their vineyard is and how much they produce, and that the Féret cannot be relied on for any sort of statistical study. My point was/is: there is no other.

Well, perhaps, not exactly. Jim asks if the wine estates don’t need to supply this information to some public regulatory body since the châteaux are, after all, businesses. I’d say that you could probably find out total declared production for each individual estate as a question of public record, *but* I’m not sure about this and it would be a tremendously time-consuming thing to do (anyone who has dealt with the French civil service will know what I am talking about). In any event, there is no way at all that the breakdown of grand vin and second wine would show up anywhere. It is unpindownable.

Yes, it is not unknown for château owners to lie about such things, especially when there’s no way of proving them right or wrong! But the more important factors in the statistical unreliabily are the other three I cited in the same sentence.

Alex R.

[DavidG]

Alex, branching off perhaps in another direction but what do you mean when you say that the great growths are "outside appellation law?" I recall a story a while back (maybe myth?) about Petrus getting in trouble with the AOC authorities for using helicopters to dry out the vines after a harvest-time storm. Surely Lafite can't be bottling Haut Medoc (or Syrah or Grenache or anti-freeze) and selling it as Lafite? I thought that was the exclusive province of the counterfeiters.

Does appelation law set yield limits in Bordeaux? If so, do those limits mean anything? Do they account for vine density? Are the limits so high as to be meaningless? Are they enforced, are there numerous exceptions granted, or are they ignored?

[DavidG]

Also, another question on production numbers: when Wine Spectator says that there were x cases of 20xx Lafite, where does that number come from? Does it come from Lafite or from the drinks market monitoring side of Shanken's empire (Impact and Market Watch)?

[AlexR]

David,

You ask a number of good questions and here's my take insofar as I am able to answer.

>>>Alex, branching off perhaps in another direction but what do you mean when you say that the great growths are "outside appellation law?"

The best example I can think of is this: Château Montrose buys a big chunk of cru bourgeois Phélan Ségur or Smith Haut Laffitte buys a little known estate called Château Le Thil Comte Clary (there are many other examples), and those vines are simply annexed and have the legal right to be sold under the name of the great growth since they are both in the same appellation.
This is perceived as deeply shocking by a Burgundian, where terroir is defined down to the size of a handkercief...
Of course, I'm not agreeing with those guys, just saying how very different things are.

>>>I recall a story a while back (maybe myth?) about Petrus getting in trouble with the AOC authorities for using helicopters to dry out the vines after a harvest-time storm.
That was an unusual innovation, but as far as I can remember, they did not run afoul of the INAO.
On the other hand, Jean-Luc Thunevin put some plastic sheeting down between vine rows and his entire crop of Villandraud was declassified into "vin de table". But, of course, that estate was not classified at the time.
http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/bor ... conoclasts

>>>Surely Lafite can't be bottling Haut Medoc (or Syrah or Grenache or anti-freeze) and selling it as Lafite?
The next time you go to the Médoc, you'll see a château just across the road from Lafite called Ch. Rolland. Their vines were incorporated into Lafite's. Closer to the present day, Mouton Rothschild bought Ch. La Fleur Milon a couple of years ago. Who knows where the wine from those vines goes (which of Ph. de Rothschild's 3 Pauillac great growths)?
However, I point out that, in each instance, the annexed vines were within the same appellation.

>>>Does appelation law set yield limits in Bordeaux?
Yes. In fact, there are two: the rendement de base and the plafond limite de classement
>>>If so, do those limits mean anything?
Yes, and they are pretty much enforced, in Bordeaux anyway.
>>>Do they account for vine density?
Yes, because this is also defined by law.

>>>when Wine Spectator says that there were x cases of 20xx Lafite, where does that number come from? Does it come from Lafite?
Yes, from Lafite alone.

All the best,
Alex R.

[DavidG]

Thanks Alex, that was very helpful. I think I'd heard most of that somewhere along the line in the past here and there but putting it all together in one place does add a useful perspective on the concept of identity, terroir and yields.

So I guess it comes back to whether we think the wines are better now than in years past. Based on what I've tasted, I would say on average that yes, the "better" classed growths which I've followed are producing better wines in the last 15-20 years than they were in the '70s and even in most of the '80s. I can accept that some may disagree as they dont like the riper style now being produced. I can't account for different tastes (Jono saying '80 wasn't a disaster, Chris Kissack liking '94 Troplong Mondot). So my answer is for me.

Is it due to changes in viticultural practices in the vineyard (yields, density, canopy mgt, chemicals/organic farming, green harvest, picking dates, selection), changes in winemaking in the cellar (barrels, racking, micro-ox, malo, chemicals, selection again), or Robert Parker? Probably a little of all of the above.

[Tom In DC]

Hi Alex,

Do C&F include vineyard size in their documentation? How much has the Lafite vineyard increased since 1982? Their website claims 112 hectares of vineyards, up significantly from data in Hugh Johnson's 1983 Modern Encyclopedia of Wine and Parker's 1991 Bordeaux which both list vineyard sizes close to 90 hectares.

Also at the link cited, they claim "4.5 hectares in neighbouring Saint Estèphe". Does anyone know what happens to the harvest from this plot? Is it within some margin allowed by the AOC system that can be bottled as Pauillac?

Thanks,
Tom

[Jeff Leve]

Jeff,

In response to my statement that vine density has altered little over the years you replied “That is not correct for the Right Bank. Today, vineyards are being planted with much higher density in Pomerol and St. Emilion. In the Medoc, it has stayed same at close to 10,000 vines per hectare”.
Where do you get your figures from, please? Since much of this thread is about figures, it really is up to *both you and me* to supply more than just opinions.

I do not offer opinions. I do not quote book or other print sources. I post on information provided from the owners. Most of that information is on my site.

[Jeff Leve]

Also at the link cited, they claim "4.5 hectares in neighbouring Saint Estèphe". Does anyone know what happens to the harvest from this plot? Is it within some margin allowed by the AOC system that can be bottled as Pauillac?

Tom... They have a special dispensation to include those vines in their wine.

>>>Alex, branching off perhaps in another direction but what do you mean when you say that the great growths are "outside appellation law?"

The best example I can think of is this: Château Montrose buys a big chunk of cru bourgeois Phélan Ségur or Smith Haut Laffitte buys a little known estate called Château Le Thil Comte Clary (there are many other examples), and those vines are simply annexed and have the legal right to be sold under the name of the great growth since they are both in the same appellation.

Because the vines are from the same appellation, chateaux are allowed to include them. FWIW, Le Thil was originally part of the Smith Haut Lafitte estate. However, a top Chateau like Montrose and Smith are not going to placing sub par vines into their grand vin. If they were, they would not have reduced the quantity of the wines they are producing as Grand vin today. The could simply increase the quantity. I am not saying any of these purchases are prime, or sub prime vines. But if they are not up to the what the estate deems good enough to place into their Grand vin, the juice will be used for their second wines.

This is not the case in St. Emilion however. Chateau are required to ask for approval before incorporating new vines into existing properties. Several changes took place with the current 2012 St. Emilion Classification, which you can read about, if you like.
http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bor ... fications/


Lafite can't be bottling Haut Medoc (or Syrah or Grenache or anti-freeze) and selling it as Lafite?
The next time you go to the Médoc, you'll see a château just across the road from Lafite called Ch. Rolland. Their vines were incorporated into Lafite's. Closer to the present day, Mouton Rothschild bought Ch. La Fleur Milon a couple of years ago. Who knows where the wine from those vines goes (which of Ph. de Rothschild's 3 Pauillac great growths)?

Alex... This is nonsese. Yes, a First Growth can add vines from anyplace in the appellation and produce more Grand Vin. But as most serious Bordeaux estates are clearly making less of their Grand Vin and not more, that is probably not going to happen. The goal today is to produce better wine, in smaller quantities and charge a lot more money for the difference in quality. That is why production of the Grand Vin is less at all serious estates today.

[DavidG]

Also at the link cited, they claim "4.5 hectares in neighbouring Saint Estèphe". Does anyone know what happens to the harvest from this plot? Is it within some margin allowed by the AOC system that can be bottled as Pauillac?

Tom... They have a special dispensation to include those vines in their wine.



Lafite can't be bottling Haut Medoc (or Syrah or Grenache or anti-freeze) and selling it as Lafite?
The next time you go to the Médoc, you'll see a château just across the road from Lafite called Ch. Rolland. Their vines were incorporated into Lafite's. Closer to the present day, Mouton Rothschild bought Ch. La Fleur Milon a couple of years ago. Who knows where the wine from those vines goes (which of Ph. de Rothschild's 3 Pauillac great growths)?

Alex... This is nonsese. Yes, a First Growth can add vines from anyplace in the appellation and produce more Grand Vin. But as most serious Bordeaux estates are clearly making less of their Grand Vin and not more, that is probably not going to happen. The goal today is to produce better wine, in smaller quantities and charge a lot more money for the difference in quality. That is why production of the Grand Vin is less at all serious estates today.

But.. but... but...

Lafite has permission to bottle wine coming from grapes grown in St. Estephe as Lafite? So it's not just the Rudy's and Hardy's and Chinese entrepreneurs making fake Lafite? Some of the "official" Lafite is fake? I think I heard this before but figured it must have been crazy talk.

How long has this been going on, who else has "special dispensations" and would we even know?

[Chateau Vin]

But.. but... but...

Lafite has permission to bottle wine coming from grapes grown in St. Estephe as Lafite? So it's not just the Rudy's and Hardy's and Chinese entrepreneurs making fake Lafite? Some of the "official" Lafite is fake? I think I heard this before but figured it must have been crazy talk.

How long has this been going on, who else has "special dispensations" and would we even know?

Other dirty little secret is that Chateaux can also blend vintages, albeit in smaller quantities, which is permissible under the law...And there is no way to know these details...

[Bacchus]

11 hectares of Pichon Lalande's vineyards are in St. Julien.

[Chateau Vin]

Around 15 hectares in St Julien have the right to use name Pauillac... Also there are laws restricting pruning, etc. for each grape varietal under each appellation...

[DavidG]

I suppose the next thing you're gonna tell me is that there is no Santa Claus?

[Chateau Vin]

I suppose the next thing you're gonna tell me is that there is no Santa Claus?

Santa Claus does not come for Christmas!...He is only in the North Pole!!!

Well, Broadly speaking, vineyards from each appellation have the right to be called: that particular appellation, Haut Medoc, Medoc, Bordeaux, etc...But there are certain exceptions...

1. Some small area in St Julien can be called Pauillac...Also, certain areas in Estephe can also be named Pauillac...Similarly, certain areas in other nearby satellite communes can be called St Julien. But these areas area already delineated by INAO/Appellation laws and you cannot add areas indiscriminately...

2. Also, if I remember correctly, not every area in the appellation can use the name. It also depends on the soil quality. If area within appellation Pauillac does not have the soil quality deemed for Pauillac appellation, it cannot use the name Pauillac...For example, if Lafite buys some land in Pauillac appellation, and if the soil is different (let's say sandy soil), Lafite cannot use the grapes even for generic Pauillac appellation vine, let alone for Lafite name...

3. Moreover, there are certain laws related to pruning, yield, vine density, sugar levels and alcohol levels that each appellation has to follow...Even there are laws under each respective appellation with respect to how many buds a vine should have...

[DavidG]

Don't some areas also have an official tasting panel that determines whether the wines qualify for that year? Or is that Germany? Not Bordeaux, I don't think.

[Chateau Vin]

Don't some areas also have an official tasting panel that determines whether the wines qualify for that year? Or is that Germany? Not Bordeaux, I don't think.

I don't know if there are any for Bordeaux based on annual tastings. But if you are referring to St Emilion, it is for classification. Their classification is based on the panel tasting every 10 years, barring the law suits and court verdicts...

[Jeff Leve]

1
2. Also, if I remember correctly, not every area in the appellation can use the name. It also depends on the soil quality. If area within appellation Pauillac does not have the soil quality deemed for Pauillac appellation, it cannot use the name Pauillac...For example, if Lafite buys some land in Pauillac appellation, and if the soil is different (let's say sandy soil), Lafite cannot use the grapes even for generic Pauillac appellation vine, let alone for Lafite name...

Generally speaking, if the land is from the appellation, with the exception of St Emilion, an estate can add those vines to their wine. However, each appellation has certain rules and laws, but those rules and laws are so lax, the odds of an estate not being able to add vines to their holdings are small.

11 hectares of Pichon Lalande's vineyards are in St. Julien.

Château Pichon Lalande is unusual in owning 11 hectares (27 acres) of vines in the commune of St. Julien. From time to time, the wine has been sold and bottled by Negociants as St. Julien, with a mention of the vines owners, Pichon Lalande on the label. From memory, I am not sure those vines are included in Pichon Lalande.

[Chateau Vin]

Château Pichon Lalande is unusual in owning 11 hectares (27 acres) of vines in the commune of St. Julien. From time to time, the wine has been sold and bottled by Negociants as St. Julien, with a mention of the vines owners, Pichon Lalande on the label. From memory, I am not sure those vines are included in Pichon Lalande.

Yes, we don't know if the vines are included in Pichon Lalande, and its hard to know even if they are included in the Grand Vin...I presume according to the appellation laws, they can include it only if the St Julien property that they own (I don't know which area of St Julien that PLL owns) falls within the delineation of the St Julien area that can be named under Pauillac. But I think they have more than enough vines under Pauillac appellation that goes into their Grand Vin. May be PLL uses it for their non Grand Vin wines or simply as you said the negociants just bottle it and sell...

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

There are some weird things. If it doens't cause grave concern about the wine in bottle (not for me at least) it does cause some concern about how these "dispensations" are granted, as well as what other literal and/or figurative lines are blurred if for nothing else but convenience's sake.

Oddly, and maybe somebody can verify or debunk this one, I seem to recall reading that one property, called Chateau St. Paul, rpoduces Haut Medoc though the vineyard (at least) is in St. Estephe. I know this is permitted but have come to expect that the chateau will claim whatever is the most advantageous classification for its wine. Maybe at the $10 a bottle mark they figure it doesn't matter. Or maybe it had soemthing to do with a change in ownership and losing the right to the appellation (which I'm not sure if that's factually correct or even if so why that might be).

Anyway, a little weird, where there is such emphasis placed on "place" yet there is a certain amount of blurring tolerated.

[Chateau Vin]

The communes are part of Haut Medoc, Haut Medoc is part of Medoc, Medoc is part of Bordeaux. But I don't think the chateau can claim whtever is the most advantageous classification. If ST Paul is already in estephe, they can claim it as estephe, haut medoc, medoc or bordeaux. So a chateau, which is part of a commune, can either label it at the commune level, but if the wine is deemed not fit for its top label, they can use it in their non grand vin wines, and if they blend it with haut medoc level or medoc level or with bordeaux level wine, they have to call it at that level. I don't see a problem with that...

[Jeff Leve]

Château Pichon Lalande is unusual in owning 11 hectares (27 acres) of vines in the commune of St. Julien. From time to time, the wine has been sold and bottled by Negociants as St. Julien, with a mention of the vines owners, Pichon Lalande on the label. From memory, I am not sure those vines are included in Pichon Lalande.

Yes, we don't know if the vines are included in Pichon Lalande, and its hard to know even if they are included in the Grand Vin.....

You can just aks the property. They are fairly open. They might take some time to get back to you. But chances are good, they will respond. I remember aksing them about this a year or so ago, but I looked and did not find it on my site. If you write and do not get an answer, let me know and I will ask for you...

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

The communes are part of Haut Medoc, Haut Medoc is part of Medoc, Medoc is part of Bordeaux. But I don't think the chateau can claim whtever is the most advantageous classification. If ST Paul is already in estephe, they can claim it as estephe, haut medoc, medoc or bordeaux. So a chateau, which is part of a commune, can either label it at the commune level, but if the wine is deemed not fit for its top label, they can use it in their non grand vin wines, and if they blend it with haut medoc level or medoc level or with bordeaux level wine, they have to call it at that level. I don't see a problem with that...

Maybe it is that they have a parcel or plot in St. Estephe but also others in the greater Haut Medoc outside St. E. That might explain it, though I was under the impression it was a smaller, unified estate. There was some peculiar circumstance - maybe the vineyard is in the commune but it is vinfied outside it?

Anyway I bought a case at 9.99/btl as a no worries drinker, it seemed to have decent reviews and it's sitting at JJ Buckley for the time being.

[Chateau Vin]

You can just aks the property. They are fairly open. They might take some time to get back to you. But chances are good, they will respond. I remember aksing them about this a year or so ago, but I looked and did not find it on my site. If you write and do not get an answer, let me know and I will ask for you...

Jeff,

I am ok with PLL adding St Julien as long as St Julien property is deemed as part of Pauillac according to the appellation laws...

I am sort of more ticked off with chateaux mixing the vintages. Say, if 2008 is so so vintage and not selling for a particular chateaux, and if their 2009 vintage is well received by the market, they can mix a bit of 2008 with 2009 and sell as 2009. It's all the more bad for the consumers, when they show off their 09 for barrel and bottle tasting reviews, but they finally blend their 09 with 08...Consumers think they are getting the blockbuster 09, but in fact they end up getting a different final product...I was in Bordeaux last summer and one of the smaller chateaux owners mentioned this, but apparently no body talks about it...Not sure if growth chateaux are also involved in this...Do you know anything about this practice Jeff?

[DavidG]

I am sort of more ticked off with chateaux mixing the vintages. Say, if 2008 is so so vintage and not selling for a particular chateaux, and if their 2009 vintage is well received by the market, they can mix a bit of 2008 with 2009 and sell as 2009. It's all the more bad for the consumers, when they show off their 09 for barrel and bottle tasting reviews, but they finally blend their 09 with 08...

This thread has certainly taken an interesting turn! Clearly the above is Parker's fault. He's the Wine Advocate, after all, and wields immense power...

I've always been a bit skeptical of the barrel tastings done in the first spring following the harvest, before the final blends are made. But I never thought much about the blend including wine from lesser years. What % of other-year wine is allowed? 10%? More?

[JimHow]

How come the all knowing wine advocate from Monkton doesn't discuss this issue? He is our advocate! We pay him to represent our interests! Is he investigating this issue? Is he protesting the practice? Does he even think it is a concern? IS it a concern, or just tall tale?

[Tom In DC]

Thanks, Jeff.

Interesting that they can include the Saint Estèphe juice in what's bottled as Lafite. There's a bit of a catch-22 in there, I think, for if the Saint Estèphe is included in the grand vin, aren't they admitting that the final product must be improved by its inclusion? Otherwise, don't you think they'd make a vocal point of excluding the Saint Estèphe juice from the grand vin?

Those wacky French and their so-called laws... As the Beatles said, "Money can't buy me love" but it must be good for getting around regulations in the Euro zone.

[Chateau Vin]

This thread has certainly taken an interesting turn! Clearly the above is Parker's fault. He's the Wine Advocate, after all, and wields immense power...

I've always been a bit skeptical of the barrel tastings done in the first spring following the harvest, before the final blends are made. But I never thought much about the blend including wine from lesser years. What % of other-year wine is allowed? 10%? More?

I don't want to name him, but this was a chateau owner who makes a Bordeaux Superior. If I remember correctly, he said something like 15% can be added from the other vintage. He was talking in French, and one of the group members was translating in English (may be that 15% was lost in translation. That's why I say if I remember this correctly!). While he was talking about this, he was also showing his displeasure for the growth chateaux regarding this. I didn't know what to make of his comments, but I was surprised...

[Tom In DC]

How come the all knowing wine advocate from Monkton doesn't discuss this issue? He is our advocate! We pay him to represent our interests! Is he investigating this issue? Is he protesting the practice? Does he even think it is a concern? IS it a concern, or just tall tale?

Do you actually pay him, Jim? Or is this a more "royal we"?

[JimHow]

$75 a year....
My hard earned money.
I want "advocacy," not just schmoozing with the Bordelais and Hardy and the Singapore billionaires.

[Bacchus]

Will the bdx blend soon include Zin and Syrah?
http://bordeaux-undiscovered.co.uk/blog ... -bordeaux/