Poll: In general, is Bordeaux under $30 worth buying?

[AlexR]

Robert in Orlando wrote:

"I'm too new here to know whether you are being sarcastic, but if not, wow. Perhaps we should start a thread, "Name your Best Sub-$30 Bdx Recommendation". Lots of good stuff out there in this price bracket."

That's the spirit! Instead of arguing one way or another, specific examples!

Only problem there, of course, is that what is available in a supermarket here might not be so in Des Moines (or vice versa, I might add)!

I drink wine just about every day - not just on weekends - particularly in winter, but don't tend to post on the everyday stuff.
Maybe I should...
With lunch we had 2009 Tutiac, Blaye Côtes de Bordeaux (Tutiac is largest AOC cooperative in France - they are one of my customers and give me a mixed case). This was nothing to write home about, but it was a fruit-forward, non-tannic, perfectly acceptable wine. Not exciting, but let's not neglect the value for money aspect of this all!
Do the same people who diss Bx. under 30 bucks diss inexpensive California wine?

There are plenty of wines in the *medum* price range (my Tutiac retails at only 10 euros a bottle) that can hold their head high among wine from anywhere in the world that price bracket in my most very humble opinion.

If you think Bordeaux only delivers at over 30 dollars a bottle, the question to ask is what wine beats it, realizing, of course, that this is more of an intellectual exercise than anything else: Pinot Noir from, let's say, New Zealand and Bordeaux is a fairly absurd comparison...

Best regards,
Alex R.

[OrlandoRobert]

In seriousness, though, the question seeks to determine whether "lesser" Bordeaux properties are worth the effort to obtain. Take the $30 figure out of the equation. We all know that the classified growths, in general, are among the world's best, worthy of our obsession. There are certain Bordeauxs out there like Lanessan that are great values at $20. But are most lesser Bordeaux any more interesting, appealing, higher quality, unique, etc., etc., than the "lesser" wines of, say, Italy, Burgundy, Rhone, California, Spain, Chile, etc.? Myself, in general, the answer is no. As I mentioned above, there was a time in the not too distant past when $25 wines like Lagrange, Leoville Poyferre, and duhart Milon were far superior to anything in the price range from just about any other region in the world. Today I don't think we can any longer say that. I don't think the d'Escuracs of Bordeaux are any "wow, I gotta get that over some similarly priced wine from Spain or Italy" type of wines.

I disagree based on the regions you have identified, though of course, it's based on my palate.

We are speaking in generalities, but I cannot buy and have not bought a single wine from Spain or Australia in many years, and for some time (say 10+ years ago), those were my go-to regions for every day plonk under $15. Southern Rhone was another go-to, and now for me, has become near undrinkable. Parker and Cambie have killed Southern Rhone for me (with some unique exceptions). Chile and Argentina rarely work for me - simple fruit bombs. Tough to find great Cali Cab-based wines in this price point unless you are talking Ridge Estate for $38 (Ridge Zins are spectacular, by the way). Perhaps I am asking for a lot when I want place, balance and terroir for under $30, but it can be found. Chinon and Beaujolais perhaps deliver up the best examples of serious, quality wines for that price range. Bordeaux is a bit behind, but still delivers up solid wines in this price class. Chinon really is the super-star in this class. Baudry. Joguet. Filliatreau (Saumur). Guion (Bourguiel). The Franc de Pieds, when done well, are mind-boggling.

I have also always been an old-world syrah fanatic from Northern Rhone. It used to be that Clape, Allemand, Verset, et al., were the go-to wines for rustic stuff, but they were and are pricey. There is a new breed of phenomenal producers, however, that are delivering up profound wines in this $30-ish price bracket. Gonon is the best example, though the price has crept up to about $36 for the 2010 syrah. Texier. Faury.

[DavidG]

I agree with the two Jims. While there are a good number of good value "lesser" Bdx available for <$30, they are decentered daily drinkers, not really exciting wines. The exciting wines have escalated in price to well above the $30 level. But the poll asked about great deals, which I interpreted as great QPR, not as "exciting."

[JonoB]

Alex,

You have made some fair points, but one has to remember that that wine retails for 10 euros in the region of origin.

As a rouge calculation to the UK, and translated into retail prices in US$, that bottle now costs $20 retail. More than double what you have paid for it.
This is based on assuming the exceller price is Euro5, and thus £5 including shipping to the UK, and then you add 30% margin, duty and VAT, and then convert at a rate of $1.6 to the £.

Now factor in that the transport costs to the US will be higher (probably a lot higher), and then the various different states' tax regimes, and you are looking at probably at least $24 a bottle, if not pushing the top end of $30 depending on where in the US you are. Considering in the past you could get classed growths for sub-$30, and then you look at respective qualities and we aren't really singing from the same hymn sheet.

In terms of comparing to other regions, I do feel that once things get to the UK, there is more pleasure to be had at the same price point in other regions. Perhaps quality might not be there, but that is how I see it, and this is from tasting a lot of things side by side at trade tastings (which I hate). I'm not saying your points aren't valid, and I agree with them. There is a lovely Bordeaux Superieur 2009 Chateau Lestrille that punches well above its station, but it is still about £12.3 a bottle retail or Euro14.76 or $19.68. Now this is great value given its quality... however, how much would you pay for that in Bordeaux from Mme Estelle Roumage at the property? I'd guess half of that!

[AlexR]

Jono,

As regards inexpensive Bordeaux, you're dead right. It's usually much cheaper here than abroad.
The paradox of it all is that the best wines are cheaper in New York or London than they are in Bordeaux itself.
Go figure...

Alex

[JonoB]

Alex,

very correct, but don't worry in burgundy, Bordeaux is more expensive than in Bordeaux. Perhaps because there is so little available.
I still remember picking up 2004 Poujeaux from L'Eclerc in 2011 for Euro 17!

I have even heard stories from sales people that Mssr. Borie has often called up to buy older vintages of Ducru when they run out!

[JimHow]

I'm not saying lesser Bordeaux is swill.
I'm just saying that if I'm at a restaurant and there are different wines available by the glass or there are affordable bottles on the list, I'm just as likely to pick something from another region as I am from Bordeaux. I can't get excited about loading up on cases of 2009 d'Escurac, Marjosse, Camensac, Fourcas, etc., etc.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Camensac's a 5th Growth! Rolland used to consult there!

[JonoB]

Camensac's a 5th Growth! Rolland used to consult there!

All the moe reason not to get excited by it...

[JimHow]

You know I threw that in, haven't had it yet from 2009.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

That was of course sarcasm. The wine might in fact be good and interesting, but I can find nary an "expert" opinion supporting that. Seems like it's been consistently meh for quite a while. If Rolland was unable to at least sex it up, well, that may be saying a lot.

[JimHow]

I think HWSRN gives 90 points to the 2009 and cosiders it "the best Camensac ever," no?

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I would not know. But what 09 has he not considered the best ever? It is the best ever vintage. Except for Rhone 07 being the best ever anywhere.

[JimHow]

Ah, yes, the legendary 2007 Rhone vintage.
The best, ever, anywhere.

[Blanquito]

Ah, yes, the legendary 2007 Rhone vintage.
The best, ever, anywhere.

After sampling a number of the uber-hot 2007 Southern Rhones, all I could imagine was Alfred Tesseron taking a sniff, cringing and saying, "what is this rocket fuel?".

[Nicklasss]

M'y comparison was a bit sketchy. but you know what i mean.

bordeaux red wines are aiming at elegance first and substance and structure in second. So in respect of that spirit, yes red Bordeaux wines under 30$ are the perfect elegant wines, Way more than any New World red wines, or Spanish, or Italian, or Portuguese, or southern Rhône, or Languedoc wines.

and yes red Bordeaux wines under 30$ are more substancial and structured than Bourgogne, Loire, Beaujolais red wines.

in a way, only some red Northern Rhône under 30$ could rival red Bordeaux.

nic

P.S. If on the Bordeaux Wine Enthusiast community, less than 50 percent of the people think 30$red Bordeaux don't deserve some more interest than red from other part of the World, we have a problem. should we change our name for Bordeaux Cru Classe Enthusiast or Critics Favorite Bordeaux Enthusiast?

[JimHow]

A person can't "make" someone love them, Nicolas.
I can't "make" myself love lesser Bordeaux.
I wish i COULD love the lesser Bordeauxs, I'd stock up on dozens and dozens of cases!
But I don't. I don't love the lesser Bordeauxs.
I like them, but I don't LOVE them.

[JimHow]

If the face of Bordeaux were d'Escourac, Marjosse, and the cru bourgeois, rather than Lafite, Latour and the classified growths, I doubt we would have formed a website called "Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts."

[Nicklasss]

Jim, I don't want you to LOVE the 30 $ or less red Bordeaux, as I don't want you to buy them by the cases, as I don't want you to drink only less than 30$ wines, as I don't want you to LIKE me, but in regard of your original question, in that pricerange, I think Bordeaux offer equal or more than other wine area of France, or from anywhere else in the World. and this to my personnal taste.

But I LIKE that we're different. I LIKE meeting you and taste Bordeaux over 30$. and I would LIKE to meet you more often and taste less than 30$ Bordeaux blind with you and would LOVE to hear you say: that wine is as good as that 1988 Vieux Château Certan that we had at Tom's place.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I have tasted some less than 30$ Bordeaux that are bad and some Crus Classes that are magnificent.

But I'll make another risky comparison: liking 5 percent of what is produced in Bordeaux, and stating " I LIKE Bordeaux wines", it is LIKE saying I LIKE The Beattles when you only have and know The Beattles best of CD...

nic

[Nicklasss]

And don't forget Jim, that less than 30$ bottle of Bordeaux, " She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah. She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah. She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah, yeeeeeaaaaaah!"

Nic

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

; - |

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I see where this is going now: Burgundy.

[JimHow]

...

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

GIFSoup

[JimHow]

...

[Bacchus]

[JimHow]

...

[Bacchus]

[AlexR]

Yes, Nic, Bordeaux's only competitor - in France - in the lower end of the spectrum is the Côtes du Rhône.

I think we've all had some pretty good CduR and CduR Villages.
Arguably easier to find winners than in Bx...

For the last quarter of a century, I've been hearing that "great things are starting to come out of the Languedoc-Roussillon".
Unfortunately, my experience has been pretty disappointing here.

Alex

[AKR]

"In general, under $30 Bordeaux is nothing special.
vs.
There are many great deals to be found under $30 in Bordeaux."

Just in the past couple weeks we've had '05 Domaine de Courteillac and '09 Chateau Arnauton Cuvee Grand Sol, both $20 and quite enjoyable. I don't expect to have my socks knocked off by sub-$30 wines - I'm just looking for something solid and tasty, even if it's a bit rustic/simple. Totally agree with the strategy of loading up on sub-$30 bottles in the great vintages and skipping the lesser vintages.

I'm enjoying the 2009 Arnauton [Fronsac] now and its a very solid wine. Modern, 14.5% and from the Jeffrey Davies portfolio, which means it has a certain profile I expect. On the plummy fulsome side, but I don't pick up oak/vanilla today. A little orange peel and iodine here too. This is a Fronsac to consider in the good vintages. Really great bang for the buck; it must have been a tenner on release or so. I'd slot it into the modern style, with a B+ grade.

[Racer Chris]

Is Tour St Christophe a Bordeaux under $30 worth buying, or has the price climbed since it became BWE WOTY?
Unfortunately the 2014 I drank in 2017 wasn't memorable enough for me to recall I had ever purchased the bottle.

OTOH, 90% of the bottles I consume cost me less than $30.
Some of the more interesting ones include Lilian Ladouys, Capbern, Labegorce, Marsac Seguineau, Sarget de Gruaud Larose, Senejac.

[Claudius2]

Folks
I live in a different part of the world, where wine is more expensive than Europe, the USA or even Australia.
$US30 is about $S42 here, and that price would get a fairly average Bordeaux or generic Bourgogne, maybe a St Joseph, Cornas, Crozes Hermitage,a reasonable Chianti Classico, Rosso de Montalchino or Montepulciano, a quite good Ribera or Rioja, or a middle ranked Australian wine.
At that price, I think I can get a better wine from Coonawarra, Margaret River, Tuscany or Spain.
However, I have over the years found some lowish priced Bordeaux that are excellent and are at least as good as anything else at that price point.
Bordeaux is a remarkably big place with many thousands of producers. There are definitely some gems to be found but you do need to search them out.
When travelling in France, I have had some CB Medocs, Lalande de Pomerol, St Emilion Satellites and Cotes wines (e.g., Cotes de Francs, Castillon) that were really good, and irrespective of the price.
Having said that, the quality of Australian cabs and Bordeaux blends are very good if you avoid the over-hyped, over-blown styles.
No, they do not taste like Bordeaux or Californian cabs for that matter, but I can ship them to Singapore for a reasonable price and I am happy to drink them regularly.

[JoelD]

Hey guys,
My answer is similar to Ken's, but here goes. Generally $30 (at lowest WS price) is about the perfect cutoff, I would say that Most are not worth it but you can definitely find some hidden gems, especially in good vintages. That said, with a little age, a lot of the sub 30 Bordeaux from good vintages will be very drinkable but not blow me away. My rule of thumb is for anything Bordeaux I would rather buy a wine that is that producers top wine, than one of comparable price that is the 2nd or 3rd wine of a different producer. However with an insane amount of good values in the 40-60 range.. I just get those +the hidden gems that are sub $30(or if some retailer offers a below market deal of course). So many better values sub 30 from other parts of the world, especially whites obviously that I'll just pay a little extra for a better bordeaux.

That said, I just bought a case of the 2016 tour saint christoph, for 27 a bottle.
Also I love the capbern 2016, got for around 25 a bottle

As these wines get some time to age, I am sure other deals will pop up for these good vintages and we will know how they have come around after a few years in bottle.

[JimHow]

That said, I just bought a case of the 2016 tour saint christoph, for 27 a bottle.

Well done, Joel. That wine is going into an awkward phase right now. I have a case as well, I'll crack it open in 3-5 years.

[JimHow]

A wine that I have enjoyed from the Kwok stable is the 2016 Haut Brisson, which goes for like $21.
Also, I love the 2016 Sirilhan, that goes for under $20.

[AKR]

Wine is going to get way cheaper soon.

[OrlandoRobert]

2014 Sociando at $26-30
2014 Lanessan at $16-20

Futures and release prices. Some deals remain. I defy you to find two more classic stalwarts like this. Every person on this forum should have these two classic wines in their collections. And they age beautifully.

[JimHow]

Amen my brother.
2014 will go down as a legendary wartime vintage.

[Blanquito]

I know not all loved it, but the 2015 Siran at ~$30 was a great deal.

[JoelD]

That said, I just bought a case of the 2016 tour saint christoph, for 27 a bottle.

Well done, Joel. That wine is going into an awkward phase right now. I have a case as well, I'll crack it open in 3-5 years.

thanks, tried one and I agree about awkward phase but came around with a 2+ hour decant and some good meat. I agree with 3-5 years probably being the sweet early spot on it

also to edit my earlier post about 2nd and 3rd wines, exceptions are from producers you love, especially during a good vintage. for me the moulin riche and smith haut le petit are perfect examples albeit neither usually under 30, but not a lot higher. 35-40

I agree about Siran, I really like the style, and if you want to go even cheaper, the S by Siran is good enough to drink but cheap enough for to put out for your non wine drinking friends at parties