Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post Reply
User avatar
JimHow
Posts: 20106
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Lewiston, Maine, United States
Contact:

Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by JimHow »

I recall starting around the 1995 vintage, into the late 1990s, and now into the new century, some people started raising questions about how well these new age Parkerized vintages would age in bottle.

This past weekend with friends and relatives I uncorked a 1995 Tertre Roetbeuf, 1998 Pavie, 2000 Les Charmes Haut Brion, 2004 d'Aighuile, and 2003 Lafaurie Peyraguey. The only wine that made any impression on me was the Sauternes. The rest were okay, but nothing special. Very nice, mind you, but nothing stirring. I know for many of you these wines are still very young but I've drunk other Bordeaux from the past at that age level and they were wowzer experiences. 1989 Lynch Bages consumed in 1999 was a compelling wine despite its youth.

I'm wondering if the questions that we here and others raised in the past decade and a half are starting to be answered:

Are the Parkerized wines of Bordeaux produced from 1995 on as boring as a 1993 Batailley?
User avatar
stefan
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: College Station, TX
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by stefan »

The '96 Lagrange we drank last night was very good. It has not developed secondary characteristics so far, but it is rather young for that. We had a '95 La Lagune a day earlier that was nice but not nearly as good as the '96 La Lagune, which we have drunk on multiple occasions. We also drank '02 Clerc Milon yesterday. It is still some years from maturity but showed as it should. Sometime this week we'll drink '02 Pape Clement. Previous bottles have been forward for '02 and possess some wowzerness. Tonight we'll calibrate with wines from the 1980s--'86 Latour a Pomerol and '89 La Lagune. (We are visiting stefanJr, Irena, Shea, and Elle this week--that is why our drinking is above normal. BTW, Elle did a comparative tasting the other night and preferred an Oregon Chehalem PN to '85 La Lagune and a 2010 Ridge ATP Zinfandel. She shows signs of becoming as good a taster as Shea.) Anyway, I don't detect any fall off with so-called modern Bordeaux.
User avatar
OrlandoRobert
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Not sure why you use '94 as your cut-off point, but I will say, the '94 Leoville Barton I had a couple years ago (last of my 6) was ridiculously good and old-school.

I'm quite optimistic about the '05 left banks. I do not think 2000 has lived up to the hype, but these are all still babes in the woods. I've had some '04s with BobbyGoulet that curled my toes.

Were I to agree with your premise, I'd say yes to more recent right banks starting in 2003. My '03 left banks are sleeping.
User avatar
JimHow
Posts: 20106
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Lewiston, Maine, United States
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by JimHow »

The "modern era" of Bordeaux of course began with the James Suckling Wine Spectator article, circa 1997 or so, on the 1995 vintage. That's why I started with post-1994. That was the article when Suckling said (about the recently bottled 1995s): "Bordeaux this young is not supposed to be this good."
User avatar
Nicklasss
Posts: 6384
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by Nicklasss »

This is a scary thread, as most of my Bordeaux are from 1995 or younger...

I tend to beleive that modern winemaking technics and having superripe grape, result in wines drinkable earlier. As for their ability to age, don't know how this is impacted... But I want to beleive the producers and they should âge well.

Very ripe grapes, micro-oxygenation, inverse osmosis, all things that concentrate the juice, stabilize the wine that is less impacted (or more slowly) by oxygénation in bottle? Maybe? So the wine stay young longer (like the people) and will develop their characteristics and complexity in more years? Why not? And stay on their plateau for also a longer time? So all post 1994 vintages will evolve like the 1982, even If the vintages are not all great? Tough to guess.

Nic
User avatar
DavidG
Posts: 8280
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:12 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by DavidG »

Counselor, i am prepared to testify that many Bordeaux from 1994 and more recent vintages are aging nicely and turning into complex, interesting Bordeaux. I offer my evidence, in the form of a handful of TNs from last year, below. I tend to drink them with more age on them, so I don't have a ton of notes on them, but even the 2000s are now almost 13 years old. Some of the "little" wines aren't going to get too complex, and some of the bigger names are still too young, and a few of the other bigger names are behaving more Californian than Bordeaux. Nevertheless, there are plenty of references below to complexity. I'm not worried.

  • 2004 Château Angélus - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (3/3/2013)
    Purchased as future and stored in temp controlled cellar since release. Perfect cork and fill. Opened 6 hours prior to serving. Dark purple core, dark red at rim. Medium-intensity nose of black fruits, lead pencil, mint and a hint of vanillin oak. Medium body, good balance with a bit more tannin than fruit, fairly compact and crisp, no tertiary development yet, fruit and tannins battle it out in a fairly long finish. Should continue to improve - will fruit outlast tannins? Wait 3-5 years to open the next one. Excellent to outstanding.
  • 2005 Château Les Grands Chênes - France, Bordeaux, Médoc (1/10/2013)
    Identical to last bottle. Dark red to rim. Dark cherry, cassis, beef on nose, full body, ripe fruit, bit of oak, no real complexity but smooth and well-balanced, bit of ashy tannins on opening mellowed out after 45 minutes, very pleasing, very good to excellent.
  • 2005 Château Les Grands Chênes - France, Bordeaux, Médoc (1/4/2013)
    Dark red to rim. Dark cherry, cassis, beef on nose, full body, ripe fruit, bit of oak, no real complexity but smooth and well-balanced, bit of ashy tannins on opening mellowed out after 45 minutes, very pleasing, very good to excellent. Nice match with an aged Gouda.
  • 2005 Clos Les Lunelles - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, Côtes de Castillon (10/21/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Nose is a bit shy - cassis, some leafy green vegetation, bit of earth, mocha/oak. Medium body, harsh ashy tannins overwhelm the fruit here. Not much opening over a couple of hours. Finish remains mostly harsh tannins. An earlier bottle showed much better. Hoping this is just shut down and can come back, but right now the fruit is in hiding. Revisited the next day the tannins have mellowed a bit, but still overpowering the fruit. Going to leave these alone for a few years.
  • 2000 Château Grand-Pontet - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (10/17/2012)
    Cellared since release, perfect fill and cork. Dark red core, minimal lightening at rim. Forward intense nose of black fruits, tar, smoke and earth - more California than St. Emilion but very appealing. Medium-full body, nice balance, ripe fruits and tar notes follow the nose, a bit of earthy complexity suggesting Bordeaux, pretty mellow tannins remain, medium-long finiish. Still improving, outstanding.
  • 2000 Château Giscours - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, Margaux (10/15/2012)
    Cellared since release. Perfect fill and cork. Deep dark red core, minimal lightening at rim. Rich nose of ripe cassis, Margaux-berries, earthy funk and a hint of mocha/tar - this is developing nicely as the oak integrates and the Margaux-ness starts to come to the fore. Medium-full body, interesting mix of ripe cassis fruit and tarry/earthy notes on the palate follow the nose, too soon for any serious tertiary characteristics, nice balance, medium-long finish. Still on the upswing, this wine is in an interesting place showing some classic Margaux notes and some omdern richenss and power. I expect this will continue to improve over the next five years. Outstanding.
  • 1999 Château Monbousquet - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (10/8/2012)
    Dark red, minimal lightening at rim. Forward nose of cassis, plum, earthy mushroom complexity, hints of coffee. Full body, ripe fruit, beginning complexity with earthy notes following nose, low acid, long finish, moderating tannins. Should continue drinking well for years. Outstanding.
  • 1996 Château Monbousquet - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (9/21/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Dark ripe fruits, some earthy and tarry notes, medium-full body, lush smooth palate feel, ripe fruit follows the nose, good balance, medium-llong finsh, outstanding.
  • 2005 Clos Les Lunelles - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, Côtes de Castillon (5/25/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Powerful nose of cassis, coffee/mocha/oak, menthol, violets. Full bodied, ripe dark fruits, lots of tannins, still young. Some hints of earth after being open a few hours. Pretty modern. Could use several more years to integrate the tannins. Will it develop complexity? Time will tell. Excellent to outstanding.
  • 1995 Château L'Evangile - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, Pomerol (5/12/2012)
    Dark red core, lightening at rim with just a hint of bricking. Cassis, plum, and a hint of iron and iodine on the nose initially. With more time additional complexity comes forward, with some earthy forest floor. Medium body, nice ripe fruit mixes in with some sweet earthy complexity that grows over time, medium-long finish, this is drinking very well right now and has many years ahead of it. Outstanding.
  • 1996 Château Monbousquet - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (5/10/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Nice nose of ripe dark fruits, some oak. Starts out big, lush and plush with cassis and dark ripe fruits following the nose, pretty modern but well enough balanced, not flabby, still plenty of tannin present, medium-long finish. The next day it's showing some nice aged Bordeaux complexity mixed in with the ripe fruit, and the tannins have receded. Should continue to improve. Outstanding.
  • 1994 Château Clinet - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, Pomerol (4/14/2012)
    Bought as a future and cellared since release. Fill just below cork, which is pristine and comes out easily. Dark red core with a little lightening at the rim. Immediately after decanting the nose is plums, currants, leather, gamy/earthy, cedar and iron. Palate is medium to full bodied with currants, leather, earth and iron minerality, excellent balance, with some dusty tannins poking through a bit on the medium-long finsh. Let's give this a little more time and see what develops.

    An hour later, the leather and earth are coming more to the fore...

    Another hour later, the nose and palate are both richer, lusher. Still showing that sweet complexity and the dusty tannins and earthy/leathery/iron notes are still there but the fruit has come back into play in a big way. This is really drinking nicely now.

    The two of us rarely finish a bottle in one evening, this one just kept improving. By 6 hours, as I was finishing the last glass, the fruit started to recede a bit and the tannins came to the fore, but it still held that interesting complexity. Not a blockbuster, to-die-for wine, but one that was thoroughly pleasurable through and through. I still have a couple of bottles of this, and expect they will continue to drink well for the next decade or more. Excellent.
  • 1995 Château Cos d'Estournel - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, St. Estèphe (4/1/2012)
    Dark red core, lightening at rim. Took over an hour to open up, but eventually showing cigar box, tobacco, earth, medium body, classic styled, rustic, but very nice complexity given time in the glass, medium finish, outstanding.
  • 1996 Château Ducru-Beaucaillou - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, St. Julien (4/1/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Something a little volatile at first blew off to reveal nice nose of cassis, cedar, earth, tobacco. Medium-full body, palate follows the nose with blossoming complexity, good balance, nice finish, should improve further over the next 5-10 years as it develops additional complexity, outstanding.
  • 1996 Château Grand-Puy-Lacoste - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, Pauillac (4/1/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Forward nose of cassis, earth, leather. Medium-full body, good fruit, beginning complexity, great balance, nice finish, outstanding.
  • 2009 Château Beaulieu Comtes de Tastes - France, Bordeaux, Bordeaux Supérieur (2/7/2012)
    Dark red to rim. Nice forward nose of cassis, bit of moist earth. Medium body, good fruit concentration, good balancing acidity with well integrated tannins, medium finish. This is a very nice typical Bordeaux, not made to age but giving plenty of pleasure now. An excellent QPR at $14. Very good to excellent.
  • 2009 Château Pasquet - France, Bordeaux, Entre-Deux-Mers (2/4/2012)
    Dark red/purple to rim. Forward nose of sweet ripe dark fruits and toasty oak. Fruit forward, medium body on the palate, very ripe, noticeable oak, smooth polished mouthfeel and tannins, a bit low acid, short-medium finish. This could pass as a California Merlot selling for 2-3 times the $14 tariff. Simple and pleasing unless you are oak-averse, nothing complex. Very good.
  • 2000 Château Léoville Poyferré - France, Bordeaux, Médoc, St. Julien (1/18/2012)
    Dark purple to rim. Nose develops significant intensity over 2 hours to show ripe cassis and dark berry fruits, oaky/mocha notes, bit of earthiness. Full bodied with layers of dark ripe fruit, good balancing acidity and tannins, not yet showing any significant aged complexity. Moderately long finish. Outstanding now but should improve as it develops complexity over the next 5-10 years.
  • 1999 Château Quinault L'Enclos - France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru (1/11/2012)
    Dark red/purple to rim. Pretty intense nose of cassis, dark berries, coffee/toasted oak and tar. Medium body, sweet ripe fruit on the palate, enough tannin and balancing acidity to keep it from bieng a syrupy mess, medium finish, should dirnk well for another decade. Outstanding.
User avatar
finner
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:43 am
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by finner »

Probably depends on the consultant and amount of new oak. I have heard good aging reports on several post-1994 wines, such as 1995 Grand Puy Lacoste, 2002 Pichon Baron, and 2004 Smith Haut Laffite.
User avatar
Winona Chief
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by Winona Chief »

We had a bottle of 2000 Giscours just last Friday and I thought it was coming along just fine, great Margaux aroma - very much agree with DavidG's note. A recent 2000 La Fleur de Boüard was also showing very well (and that's from the notorious Hubert de Boüard de Laforest of Angelus fame). Try a 1996 Pichon Lalande - it's just wonderful and very much Pichon Lalande. I am concerned that some recent Bordeaux vintages are too big and sappy (due to both weather and winemaking practices) but I'm not buying the theory that traditional Bordeaux has been ruined by Parkerization.

Chris Bublitz
User avatar
Tom In DC
Posts: 1564
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:10 pm
Location: Colorado Foothills
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by Tom In DC »

JimHow wrote:The "modern era" of Bordeaux of course began with the James Suckling Wine Spectator article, circa 1997 or so, on the 1995 vintage. That's why I started with post-1994. That was the article when Suckling said (about the recently bottled 1995s): "Bordeaux this young is not supposed to be this good."
Many pundits said the same thing about 1990 and 1982.
User avatar
Blanquito
Posts: 5923
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by Blanquito »

OrlandoRobert wrote:I do not think 2000 has lived up to the hype, but these are all still babes in the woods.
+1
User avatar
dstgolf
Posts: 2083
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by dstgolf »

I think these wines are rounding out nicely. The 2000's are still very young for the most part. Had a Cos a few weeks back and it is in a very nice primary place right now only to get better.

Agree with the 2000 Giscours being a beautiful wine and the 2003 is starting to come into stride.

Overall these wines are still very young and I'd like to ask how many wines from the 80's thru 90 did you drink in their youth. I think the wines of today have more balance,good fruit and riper tannins. Alcohol level has crept up and some seem over oaked in their youth but if the 2003's are leading by example then I think all will be fine as these are rounding out into lovely wines. That early awkwardness with charred oak etc is coming into balance.
Danny
User avatar
DavidG
Posts: 8280
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:12 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by DavidG »

What Danny said.
User avatar
JimHow
Posts: 20106
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Lewiston, Maine, United States
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by JimHow »

I drank many, many wines from the 80s in the 90s. In other words, with about as much age as the 1995s-2003s etc., have on them today. I thought those wines then were much more interesting then than these wines are now. There has clearly been a change in Bordeaux, I just cannot agree it has been for the better. I mean, fifteen year old 1998 Pavie was as boring as a 93 Batailley. I remember Whuzzup selling all his many 1998 right bankers for this very reason, a concern that they would not develop well. I can just picture that 2009 GPL that Jal described. Frankly, I think he described perfectly what I've seen developing in GPL for about 15 years. Sure, there are some exceptions, eg, 2000 and 2009 Giscours. In general, I think Bordeaux has lost it's soul, has become internationalized, has a sameness to it that kowtows to Parker. And I think it's putting your head in the sand to say well, 1982 and 1990 was like this. I'm just a country lawyer from Maine, but I think these wines today at age 10-15 years old are nothing like the 1982s and 1990s at similar ages. Very sad.
User avatar
dstgolf
Posts: 2083
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by dstgolf »

Maybe you need to leave the country and see the world Jim. There are changes happening and I think overall there has been an across the board improvement. In the 80's you needed a guy like Parker to guide you through what tended to be a mine field. Pedigree was everything and the big boys tended to do very well. Today I feel there are so many wines that may have a sameness that you are describing but that sameness is appealing to the masses. I feel with time these will round into lovely wines aka 1990 which was also a controversial vintage to some for years.
Danny
User avatar
JimHow
Posts: 20106
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Lewiston, Maine, United States
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by JimHow »

" Today I feel there are so many wines that may have a sameness that you are describing but that sameness is appealing to the masses."

That is exactly the problem. Danny. These totalitarian wines appeal to the herded masses.

I don't need to leave Maine to know that I would rather seek out individuality and uniqueness rather than sameness and being herded.
User avatar
DavidG
Posts: 8280
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:12 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by DavidG »

Jim no doubt some of the wines that excited you in the '80s and early '90s have changed, in a way that is boring to you due to loss of distinction (but which is still appealing to others). Where I disagree with you is in the generalization of your experiences to all of Bordeaux. A fair number of wines I've had are still pretty distinct, even though some, like Pavie, seem to be more Cali than Bdx.

Sure there are some trends towards sameness, and that will be disappointing especially to those who like to drink them young, but I think that the majority of them will continue to develop nicely over time.
User avatar
Comte Flaneur
Posts: 4863
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I used to be very cynical on this score, but based on one wine in particular I am optimistic. The wine in question is Pichon Baron 2000. In its extreme youth it had a lot of puppy fat and exuberance exactly like GPL 2009 does today. And I was fooled by that. And I was completely wrong in being dismissive because today it is a marvellous, classic, structured claret, which is beginning to gain in complexity but is still five years away from reaching its plateau. Or more. The 1995s are still quite backward, many of them. But I have no doubt that it will blossom into a marvellous vintage. Other Barons from the noughties are marvellous wines too. The 2001 and 2002 are already drinking well.
User avatar
AlohaArtakaHoundsong
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Are post-1994 Bordeauxs just not aging interestingly?

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

Without speculating on their future I would just note that so many of the 05s I tried on release were so gooey, yet after just a couple of years they had dried out and straightened up in a manner similar to that Ian describes for the 2000 PB. Now I had not purchased any cru classe left banker until much later, and when I tried the 05 Haut Bages Liberal (by no means one of the super-somethings, I know), it was very tight though seemingly correct claret too. Slightly off topic, but that's a wine I might speculate some will say missed it, at least in the vintage context, yet with the result being you have a very good, traditional claret (of the "89-point" variety as discussed in another thread). But we'll only know for sure when it opens back up in another 5 or 10 years. (Meanwhile on CT you get the ususal mixed bag of "too young", "drinking fine now", "won't improve", and "past it" notes so many 8 year old Bdx seem to inspire.)
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests