Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

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OrlandoRobert
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Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Jim -

I'm a newbie here. I don't know you, never met you. You seem a little quirky - I mean really, a lawyer in Maine? And by quirky, I say that affectionately. Love the community you have created here. I read all your notes and posts, not as a stalker (that's BobbGoulet on my wife) but as someone learning the affinities of the more frequent posters. I hear you when you speak of the ubiquity that has become Bordeaux. I am not 100% on board with that thesis, but I know where you are coming from. There has become a homogeneity with many wines, but I will posit, not all. I still think Bordeaux is the greatest wine region on the planet.

But if you are looking for the most distinctive Cab-dominant wine region on the planet, one that would appeal to an old-school Cab-oriented palate, then you need look no further than Loire. Think Chinon, Saumur Champigny, Anjou and Bourgeil. Among producers, think: Joguet. Baudry. Filliatreau. Chantelereuse. Raffault. Alliet. Guion. Etc.

Every single one of these wineries use the same grapes, almost all Cab Franc, come from proximate vineyards, yet none taste anything like the other. Not even close. You will never confuse a Joguet for a Baudry. A Raffault for a Guion. Will not happen. Each has its own hallmark. I would submit even further that you will not confuse one cuvee for another even if from the same estate. The Joguet Clos de la Dioterie will NOT taste anything like the Joguet Les Varennes du Grand Clos. Different soil conditions, different results. The soil, grapes and microclimate make the wine, not the man or woman.

The best wine I have had this past year is the 2005 Joguet Les Varennes du Grand Clos Franc de Pied. Mindbogglingly good. A wine that will make you weep. The 2005 and 2009 Clos de la Dioterie rank up their with some of my faves over the past 3 years. Love the Baudry as well, a more spiritual, intellectual style of wine-making. The 2009 Domaine Guion Cuvee Prestige is the best QPR I have bought in years - magic in a bottle for $12.99. The Guion has more terroir in a sip than some $100+ wines have in a full bottle.

You owe it to yourself to try some of these estates from prime years. The weather is not as friendly to winemakers in Loire as it is to Bordeaux or Souther Rhone, so pick your years. I love 2005 and 2009 among the more recent years.

I'm guessing Baudry would be the best starting point for you. I prefer Joguet, but Baudy is my second fave. Joguet can throw a bretty fingerprint, and some say a kiss of modern, but I love it all, it's Joguet's style. Baudry is the burgundian Chinon. The first time I popped the yummy 2009 Lanessan, I thought of Baudry. Same classic style.

Come to Orlando and I will free pour.
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DavidG
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by DavidG »

I think you brought this up once before, Bob. I thought it was great advice then and I think it is great advice now. In addition to being distinctive, Loire Cab Franc is not "plagued" by the level of ripeness that has become so common in Bordeaux, and which seems to be at the root of much of Jim's dissatisfaction.
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AlohaArtakaHoundsong
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

It would be nice if we could pitch in on a few hectares in the Haut Medoc on a decent heap of gravel, each have our own little parcel, each handle or not the vines and grapes as we chose, use so much new oak or more; in short make and compare "designer" wines from vintage to vintage.

Probably I've stumbled on something already afoot in the wine-tourism biz.
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JimHow
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

I've never heard of Chinon. I don't know anything about anything other than the northern Medoc. Hey I have no agenda. I just try to tell it the way I see it. If I like a wine I say I like it, if I don't I likewise express my view, regardless of what HWSRN says. My drinking habits are quirky because I don't drink more than once or twice a week (except when i am in one of the four months out of the year that i fast from wine) and I usually try to uncork something nice. Life is too short to spend precious time drinking 2009 Haut Bergey.

Maybe I'm just a sentimentalist. I want to drink more wines like those great wines of the 80s and early 90s, the Gruauds, Talbots, Leoville Bartons, Lynch Bages, GPLs, LLCs, Leoville Poyferres, and on and on and on.... You know the wines I'm talking about. I'm sorry, we are just not seeing wines like that anymore, at least with any sembleance of consistency.
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DavidG
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by DavidG »

Yeah I get it. But I think Bob has made a constructive suggestion. When some, or many, of your favorites no longer satisfy, it's time to look around, expand your horizons. Loire Cab Franc may ring a few of those chimes that haven't been ringing for you of late. Or maybe not - I'm not a big fan except in the ripest years. And they aren't that costly, so maybe worth a try?
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Bacchus
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Bacchus »

Jim, you're right about the 09 Haut Bergey. I'm done with it. However, if it's wines from 82-95 that you want, why not just buy them? There's still lots around. Want 95 GPL, there's a store in Danbury CT selling the stuff for $132 (so says wine searcher). Sure that's more than it's release price, but there's been a lot of inflation since 95. It's also more costly than the 09, and a whole lot more than the Loire bottles OrlandoR is writing about, but it's still not bad by today's standards in Bdx. You can blow $132 on a lesser wine, that's for sure. So if those Reagan era wines are the vintages that make your heart sing, why not seek them out. As you say, life's too short. It's not like you're a daily drinker, so hopefully you can afford a few bottles, or even a case, at $132 each.
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JimHow
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

you know, bacchus, I bought six bottles of 2009 Haut Bergey. I was thinking about buying another case. I tried that first one and hated it. Then I tried a second one and worked hard to convince myself that I liked it. I really wanted to be wrong about the first one. Then I drank the remaining four. Boring as a '93 Batailley... 89 points at best....
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OrlandoRobert
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Bacchus' suggestion works, too. In the last 2 years I picked up a lot of '82s, '86s and some '89s. I just grabbed ome '89 Pichon Baron for $150. Better pricing than 09 and 10 and ready to drink. I'm not plonking down $150 for everyday wines, but a couple a month ain't so bad, especially when most of my drinkers are under $50. Indeed, my average Loire Chinon cost is around $25.

Jim, jump on Chambers or Crush websites. They are much closer to you than to me, but I get a lot of stuff from both. Baudry. Guion. Clape. Gonon. Etc. Chambers also picks up mature Bordeaux from time to time at reasonable prices.

Here is the Baudry offerings at Chambers:

http://chambersstwines.com/

The 2009 and 2010 vintages are strong for Baudry. Even the luxury cuvee, Croix Boissee, is only $37.99. That's a world-class wine for cheap. These are agers, too.
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OrlandoRobert
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

JimHow wrote:you know, bacchus, I bought six bottles of 2009 Haut Bergey. I was thinking about buying another case. I tried that first one and hated it. Then I tried a second one and worked hard to convince myself that I liked it. I really wanted to be wrong about the first one. Then I drank the remaining four. Boring as a '93 Batailley... 89 points at best....
I bought 6 as well, but they are tucked way. I'll tell you in 7-8 years what I think of the first one I try! ;)

If it's an 89 point wine, at the $32.99 I paid, I will be disappointed, but not so much to cry. What's disappointing is not being able to find a great QPR from Pessac/Graves. Most regions have 1-2 "go-to" wines. Any thoughts on that? Someone recently recommended La Tour Martaillac, so I will give it a try. I used to love La Louviere, but have not tried it since the '05 vintage.
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JimHow
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

Oh my days of buying $150 bottles of wine are over, Bob, I can only afford the $40-70 price range now. I don't drink "everyday" wines.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

It's a rare day when I do not crack a bottle. I love a simple red with my meals. Last night I had two Guions cracked, the Cuvee Prestige at $12.99 and the luxury cuvee, Les deux Monts, at a whopper price of $15.99! I like those prices! There are so many strong, distinctive wines in this class of $20 and under. I think I get a greater pleasure finding quality wines in this range, and being pleased, than experiencing a higher quality wine at a much higher price. Takes a lot more to impress when you drop a Benjamin or more for a bottle.

Back to Chinon, tough for me to believe that a lover of classic Bordeaux will not also love Chinon. Your affinity for Sociando and Lanessan tells me all I need to know about that.

I discovered Chinon on my 1996 honeymoon. We went to Bordeaux and Loire. We stayed at a wonderful Chateau in Loire - Ch. Noizay - that had a very extensive wine cellar full of mature Chinons. The '82s, '86s and '89s were magnificent. I was hooked at that point.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

i guess I'm a little skeptical, if these wines have the gravitas and depth and complexity of Leoville Barton, Montrose, Pichon Baron, etc., why are they only $15? Wouldn't Parker be rating them 97+? If I want Lanessan and sociando, I'll just still buy those wines, those are still in my price range. My problem, which was the subject of another lengthy thread, is that "I'm not drinking as well as I used to." And, at least in part, for that I blame the Parker hype machine. I recognize there are other factors involved as well.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

JimHow wrote:i guess I'm a little skeptical, if these wines have the gravitas and depth and complexity of Leoville Barton, Montrose, Pichon Baron, etc., why are they only $15? Wouldn't Parker be rating them 97+? If I want Lanessan and sociando, I'll just still buy those wines, those are still in my price range. My problem, which was the subject of another lengthy thread, is that "I'm not drinking as well as I used to." And, at least in part, for that I blame the Parker hype machine. I recognize there are other factors involved as well.
Jimbo -

You are not making sense now! 8-)

Parker does not love these wines as he has a stunted palate that is incapable of rating finesse. Little-to-no oak. Low alcohol. Fruit picked at balance not over-ripe. Each wine is distinctive. Terroir matters. Parker hates that, right. He needs vanilla and coffee with his pain grille.

Your recent posts have been more about homogeneity, which was the premise of my post. You will not find homogeneity in Chinon. Will you find an '82 Talbot, '86 Gruard Larose or '89 Montrose, perhaps no. But you will find layered, textural, balanced wines that express their terroir.

The 2005 Joguet FDP, like I said before, was my favorite wine over the past year. 1991 Dunn Howell was my second. And trust me, I have had some bombers this past year, including many '82 and '86s. This FDP blew my phat arse away. I would trade BobbyGoulet away for a case of this exilir. He's a little ho anyway; we could buy him off for $40 panty-droppers.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Bacchus »

BobbyO, you're making me drool. I'd love to try some of that Loire. Problem is, the liquor authority here doesn't bring them in!!

One question: when the other Bobby talks about panty-droppers, whose panties is he talking about; his own? :lol:
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Nicklasss »

I agree that Chinon, when maturity of Cabernet Franc is good, is a very interesting wine, mixing fruits, vegetals, structure, tannins, acidity, and length, and small oak (when it is used), similar to the best Bordeaux.

I strongly recommend the 2009 Chinon Vieilles Vignes from Philippe Alliet. And If you care, WA rating below.

eRobertParker.com © 91-92+/100
David Schildknecht 31 août 2010 91-92+/100


Nic
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Nicklasss »

And I agree that limiting yourself to drink 40-70$ Bordeaux once or twice a week, for 20 years in a row, can result in questionning yourself about what wrong in Bordeaux... You need to drink something else, once in a while, to recalibrate everything. So Jim, you need to drink 30-70$ Cabernet from California or Chile or Australia for a mouth, and try back your 2009 Haut-Bergey...

Nic
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by stefan »

>>
you need to drink 30-70$ Cabernet from California or Chile or Australia for a mouth, and try back your 2009 Haut-Bergey...
>>

Nothing makes you appreciate Bordeaux more than drinking New World Cabs.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

stefan wrote:>>
you need to drink 30-70$ Cabernet from California or Chile or Australia for a mouth, and try back your 2009 Haut-Bergey...
>>

Nothing makes you appreciate Bordeaux more than drinking New World Cabs.
Yea, no kidding! Talk about homogeneity!

I own only three Cab wine-makers: Ridge, Dunn and Dominus.
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JimHow
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

See, I know what I've liked -- $50 Medocs -- I don't WANT to change. I was happy the way things were. The price was fair, the wines were profound. But they went all Parker on me and ruined everything.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

That's life, my boy Jimmie.

Remember the wild capricious sex you had before you were married? That changed, too, right? ;)

Life goes on. Now go buy a Baudry! And watch Sugarman while you are drinking it. Soul begets soul.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

More appropriately, Jim needs not to change horses but to ride out, catch and strng up those varmints who stole his horse, the chestnut beauty named "Bordeaux". I'll volunteer for the posse - as long as it involves nothing without legal justification. This is the only appropriate ending to this saga. Think "Shane."
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Bacchus »

To sum up, Jim wants wines in the style Bdx was from 1982-1995. He also wants this wine to be at the same Reagan era pricing. Jim, I think they call that setting oneself up to fail. Have you tried the 06 d'Armailhac lately? I'd like to know how it's doing?
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JimHow
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

Good point about 2006, Bacchus. There still seem to be some vintages, like 2002 and 2006, where the vintage mitigates against the ravages of Parkerization.

The 2006 d'Armailhac is a beauty, so much so that I drank them all.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by dstgolf »

Jim,

I like Titliest golf balls and have played them for over 30 years. Guess what they used to be a buck a ball and now they are $5 a pop!

$50 wines today are not the same species that you paid 20 + years ago like everything else. You may want to turn back the clock but it's not happening. Things change and prices go up. I understand you like rustic old world style wines with interesting nuances. You talk Pavie in the same boat as Nics 93 Batailley. Pavie is far to the extreme and certainly not on my radar and not most true Bordeaux lovers to use that as an honest representative of what's happening in modern Bordeaux. You talk of Parkers influence and I offer up the globe trotting wine consultants like Michel Rolland and others having more negative influence than Parker. Yes many wines are becoming internationalized if you want but I've got a cellar full of wine that I'm sure will turn my crank well into my golden years from the last 15 years and I hope we both live long enough to share some in the future when they blossom.

Danny

PS I hope everyone has noticed the pattern here. Every year before the BWE convention Jim starts to stir the pot and get everyone going. Year in year out just like they say in Vietnam "Same Same but Different!"
Danny
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

Lol. You know me well dstgolf.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

Funny you should mention Vietnam. Ike warned us about the "industrial-military complex" (so quaint now and especially considering the source). And it got us Ford's Bob McNamara as SecDef and the Tonkin Gulf incident. Jim is like Ike. Hey, he's even held executive office. He's been warning us of the "Parker-Rolland enological complex" for years now. Well we've just had the 2010 Cantemerle incident. Don't say you weren't warned.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

I'm like a president in his second term, Hound. I have no more elections to run, I am free to speak the truth.... Oh wait... I'm a dictator... Never mind.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by robert goulet »

. I read all your notes and posts, not as a stalker (that's BobbGoulet on my wife)

I get a drunk text tonight from señor O'robert to text him necked photos of my beautiful wife, so who is stalking who??? Lmao

I have to chime in here because I have to vouch for those sleepy little modestly priced cab francs
If I'm not mistaken, it was a bottle guion that Robert gave me as a subtle bribe for me to leave his house so he could begin to disappoint his wife with his amorous intentions :mrgreen:

I must say, this $15 bottle was loaded with magic. Not a stretch to claim that this has to be one of the best qpr's on the planet.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

robert goulet wrote:
. I read all your notes and posts, not as a stalker (that's BobbGoulet on my wife)

I get a drunk text tonight from señor O'robert to text him necked photos of my beautiful wife, so who is stalking who??? Lmao

I have to chime in here because I have to vouch for those sleepy little modestly priced cab francs
If I'm not mistaken, it was a bottle guion that Robert gave me as a subtle bribe for me to leave his house so he could begin to disappoint his wife with his amorous intentions :mrgreen:

I must say, this $15 bottle was loaded with magic. Not a stretch to claim that this has to be one of the best qpr's on the planet.
I have such a headache today . . . .

In my defense, I've worked through two weekends in preparation for some high-stake federal court proceedings this week. Wrapped up Wednesday afternoon, and I've been a physical mess for 2 days. Amazing what stress can do to a body. Amazing, too, what recuperative properties good wine has!

And thanks for the pics!

I asked Jimbo for his addy so I can pop his cherry with a Chinon, but I think he fears what you and I might do with his address. :o
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by RDD »

Don't forget the Rhone valley.
Cote du Rhones are great values.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

RDD wrote:Don't forget the Rhone valley.
Cote du Rhones are great values.
Based on what I view as Jim's preferences, respectfully, I would recommend he avoid the Southern Rhone like the plague. No other wine region in the world has suffered "Parkerization" and"Cambie-aztion" as much as Southern Rhone. Massively-extracted, super-ripe, super-high alcohol and new luxury cuvees sporting all wood (double-entendre not intended). CDRs used to be a main staple in my daily drinkers. I have virtually written off the Rhone. The 2007 vintage was a deadly (and seductive) mixed bag. I barely touched 2009 and 2010 despite critical acclaim. Most CDRs I tried were close to undrinkable to me. I have bought a few Gigondas cuvees only. The last vintage of CDP that I truly enjoyed was 2001.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant, just my 2 cents. I rail on Rhone like Jimbo rails on new Bdx.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Jay Winton »

RDD wrote:Don't forget the Rhone valley.
Cote du Rhones are great values.
writing off the Southern Rhone is a mistake, IMO. There are plenty of traditional wines that avoid "Parkerization". I went mid price on 2007 for the most part and have enjoyed the ones I've tried in general. The top end wines have been criticized for over extraction, etc. A ten year retrospective might be interesting.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Jay Winton wrote:
RDD wrote:Don't forget the Rhone valley.
Cote du Rhones are great values.
writing off the Southern Rhone is a mistake, IMO. There are plenty of traditional wines that avoid "Parkerization". I went mid price on 2007 for the most part and have enjoyed the ones I've tried in general. The top end wines have been criticized for over extraction, etc. A ten year retrospective might be interesting.
Part of it is accessibility. The local array of Southern Rhones available in Central Florida is the high octane sort. Yes, I know there are some traditional producers worth buying (Kermit has nice stuff), but I'm not going to pay shipping for daily drinkers (adds $2-3 per bottle). Too many other options available locally. BTW, the Northern Rhones is knocking out incredible wines these days. The 100% syrah CDRs are mind-boggingly good. Clape VDA and CDR. Texier. Gonon VDP. Balthazar. Etc.

Can you identify some of these Southern Rhones work checking out? I can always be convinced to try a second look. I do have a 20 year track record with this region, so it hurts to walk away. My post was more about the minefield for someone like Jim that clearly does not like these new-fangled wines, and IMHO, that's the direction S. Rhone has taken.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Jay Winton »

I thought the 2007 CDRs and CDRVs the best vintage I could remember so that spurred me to load up on 2007 CNDPs. I haven't tasted with you so it's hard to know what you're looking for in a Rhone but,for example, Le Vieux Donjon makes nice wines though I have yet to dip into my 2007s (which I bought in 375s, 750s and 1500s). The 2001 is excellent as well,IMO. I've tasted older Pegaus that I liked. Marcoux is nice and I bought several of the 09. Brett can also be a factor to keep in mind-some don't mind it, some do. There's plenty of knowledge here, more than this humble quaffer doth possess.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Circling back to the Guion, I sit here stunned. Just killed off the remainder of last night's bottle of Ridge, and went to the fridge to figure out what to pop next. I have not moved stuff over from storage, so i really did not have anything in my home wine fridge that really would be ready to roll. Came very close to popping some 03 and 05 classified growths, and reason got the better of me. They need more time. So I go to the regular fridge to see if my wife had any Sav Blanc left, and I saw that I still had about 1/3 bottle of a 2010 Guion Cuvee Prestige that I popped on Monday. Drank some more on Wednesday, then forgot about it. Wow, this wine is totally alive. Shows no sign of five days open. Still freakin' chewy too. More ancillary characteristics to the fore. Better delineation between the fruits and veggies. Just an amazing little bottle of Bourgueil. Not for everyone, but if you like this style, it's the best QPR on the planet. $12.99. Just wow. I have never come across a wine of this quality at this price.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by robertgoulet »

macard? :)
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Winesense »

When it comes to Cabernet Franc my benchmark is always Petit Gravet Aine. (80 % Cabernet Franc, 20% merlot). Suberb, delicious, supple and yet unexplored und not understood by HWMNBN. (With exception of 2009 which probably went seriously wrong.) I found no Loire Cabernet as deep and complex as that one.
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by OrlandoRobert »

Winesense wrote:When it comes to Cabernet Franc my benchmark is always Petit Gravet Aine. (80 % Cabernet Franc, 20% merlot). Suberb, delicious, supple and yet unexplored und not understood by HWMNBN. (With exception of 2009 which probably went seriously wrong.) I found no Loire Cabernet as deep and complex as that one.
Cool, a Bordeaux estate I know nothing about. Never even heard of it. Seems very hard to find in the U.S. Anyone run across it anywhere? JJ Buckley has it for "wait list". Would love to try this wine. I'm guessing the depth it has derives from the dollop of merlot and warmer climate. Sounds like a fun wine. Thanks!!
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Blanquito
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by Blanquito »

Orlando, if I helped enable you buy some 2010 Bordeaux futures, karma has provided payback: I just pulled the trigger on some Chinon from Chambers St. I will report on some after they arrive.
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JimHow
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Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Lewiston, Maine, United States
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Re: Time for Jim to Change Horses . . . . Perhaps

Post by JimHow »

I gotta try me some of that Chinon....
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