The Most "Normal" Bordeaux Vintage Is:

[Ken]

Aloha:

I too am interested in both the subjective and objective "normals". However, I don't think the conversation has been focused on meterological averages (or perhaps I misunderstood). I think the conversation has largely been about preferences for styles; hence the criticisms of Parker. My main point was the one you identified clearly, that "normal" is frequently a value laden term and frequently refers to preferences that then get labeled as "normal".

There are also a lot of appropriate jokes about "averages" in statistics. Averages are really about statistical distributions and only in a statistical sense do they have much to do with individual events or characteristcs of individuals (eg., ecological falacy).

[DavidG]

I think the discussion has revolved around what we as individuals feel has been a "normal" vintage stylistically, with an assumed/partially stated definition of "normal" as "not as ripe/over-ripe" as the last 5-10 years have been." With of course all the caveats about generalizability of a few wines experienced by each taster to the vintage as a whole, variations among individual tasters (this indeed might be the real crux of the discussion and its most interesting aspect), whose definition of "ripe/over-ripe" you want to use and whether "normal" is the right word to use.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

So I am sensing then some resistance to the concept of "typicity" - another value-laden term - at even the gross level say of "left bank?" As in, "a typical left-bank vintage." Personally I have wondered about that. I recall posting a question to members asking what chateau was the most typical (archetype was the word, and perhaps not the best choice) of each commune. I got almost no response.

I think it's interesting because some people (you know who you are) seem to be hung up on this idea there's been a shift in style. But if there isn't a style to begin with, how do these people perceive the shift at all? So if we omitted the word "normal" and could agree (which is begging the question I suppose) that at a certain date there was a certain style, call it "style A", we could ask which vintage best represented style A.

I don't think I am making this up. When even the pros agree that certain vinatages (take 09 for example) are extraordinary, there must be some point of reference "ordinary," "normal," "typical."

[DavidG]

I do think there is a general style, even though there are exceptions in every vintage and every commune. I also think that the style has shifted towards greater ripeness. I might argue with the use of "normal" vs "classic," but that's tangential to the real question. Riper is the new normal. Vintages like '88 were the old, classic normal, style-wise.

But if you are asking which vintages are "normal" or typical in terms of quality, I think that could have different answers than if the question is about style. Some of feel riper is better. Others, not so much, and others not at all.

[jmccready]

You hear very little today about finesse in todays modern style. While I think riper, healthier grapes (all the great vintages of the past were
the ripest) have yielded better wines, it is important that these current wines develop this traditional characteristic. Cellar time will
only do this of course, and it may be some of these plumpies never remind us at all of older clarets. If these newbies never give us this
"finesse" then the old "normal" classic Bordeaux will have been lost. Technology and climate will not allow us to go back. Finesse is a vague
term but one of the classic traits of older Bordeaux. JM

[JonoB]

Since 2000,

02, 04 and 07 for me.

why not 06... 06 was pretty warm ~(in terms of the fruit I am finding in the wines).

Case in point.
We received some samples of 06, 07 and 09 Fleur Cardinale the other day.
06 and 09 were licquorice and cola infused messes, whereas the 07 showed terroir and breeding. Perhaps it is a style thing by producer, but it had freshness and life.

85, 88, 89 are good calls for that era.

[DavidG]

You hear very little today about finesse in todays modern style. While I think riper, healthier grapes (all the great vintages of the past were
the ripest) have yielded better wines, it is important that these current wines develop this traditional characteristic. Cellar time will
only do this of course, and it may be some of these plumpies never remind us at all of older clarets. If these newbies never give us this
"finesse" then the old "normal" classic Bordeaux will have been lost. Technology and climate will not allow us to go back. Finesse is a vague
term but one of the classic traits of older Bordeaux. JM

This is the heart of the issue. I'm hoping that we will see the true Bordeaux finesse develop in recent riper vintages. My "belief" that this will happen may well be influenced by an aversion to the cognitive dissonance that would arise if I felt all the '00, '05 and '09 Bordeaux in my cellar was going to turn in to plonk. So take my optimism with a healthy grain of salt.

[RDD]

You hear very little today about finesse in todays modern style. While I think riper, healthier grapes (all the great vintages of the past were
the ripest) have yielded better wines, it is important that these current wines develop this traditional characteristic. Cellar time will
only do this of course, and it may be some of these plumpies never remind us at all of older clarets. If these newbies never give us this
"finesse" then the old "normal" classic Bordeaux will have been lost. Technology and climate will not allow us to go back. Finesse is a vague
term but one of the classic traits of older Bordeaux. JM

This is the heart of the issue. I'm hoping that we will see the true Bordeaux finesse develop in recent riper vintages. My "belief" that this will happen may well be influenced by an aversion to the cognitive dissonance that would arise if I felt all the '00, '05 and '09 Bordeaux in my cellar was going to turn in to plonk. So take my optimism with a healthy grain of salt.

The post WWII years were abnormally hot and they turned out pretty good.
That's my hope with some of the select 2003s I have stored away.

[DavidG]

Yup, I have hope Rob. For the '03s as well, though I only have a modest amount of them.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

+1

But, you are the guys pointing out there's a "style" shift and not just some warmer than average growing seasons. I couldn't say what effect certain modern winemaking techniques will have on these wines, but they may be the wildcard in comparing the past decade's vintages with those warm post WWII years (or '82, or '90, or whichever).